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The R+L=J thread, part XI


Angalin

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Just thinking about Targaryen Valyrian steel swords. Any chance Dany will end up with Blackfyre in her possession via Tyrion and the Golden Company? That would make a pretty cool Lightbringer. Or Dark Sister, wherever it ended up.

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Just thinking about Targaryen Valyrian steel swords. Any chance Dany will end up with Blackfyre in her possession via Tyrion and the Golden Company? That would make a pretty cool Lightbringer. Or Dark Sister, wherever it ended up.

Actually, in an upcoming Tyrion chapter Illyrio is taking Tyrion to Dany. There is also a boy with the group (young Griff?) and a mysterious sword of some import. The sword could be one of the missing Targ Valyrian steel blades.

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Actually, in an upcoming Tyrion chapter Illyrio is taking Tyrion to Dany. There is also a boy with the group (young Griff?) and a mysterious sword of some import. The sword could be one of the missing Targ Valyrian steel blades.

Hence the spoiler tags :P Do you think Lightbringer could be yet another ice-and-fire combo? Blackfyre+Oathbreaker? Hopefully not tempered by the blood of anyone I like...

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Hee hee. So she was raised in the Free Cities - whose culture is despised - got her identity with the Dothraki - who are looked down on as savages - and learned to rule a bunch of slaves - when slavery is illegal in Westeros.

I don't think any of those details in any way recommends her to a Westerosi.

From what I read regarding nobles and their knights in Westeros, at this point in time they do not care at all whether Dany (or anyone else) supports or opposes slavery. Once they show up they will see 1) dragons 2)huge army 3) their own interests. Maybe once she regains her throne, consolidates her hold, gets loyalty oaths/submissions from most of remaining Major Houses and starts too rule, then her upbringing, her allies and behaviour will be the topic of all the little whispering, snide remarks, backstabbing thats usually occurs in Monarchy and of couse "newfound" Targ bastards and expected little rebellions will use that tochallenge to her rule but all this is way in the future, First she actually needs to get the Iron Throne and get to point when stability and peace been long enough for all intrigues to start. This will NOT be an actual obstacle in her winning Westeros.

True, but there will still be a huge amount of baseline affection towards her. The War of the Five Kings has brought Westeros to its knees and 'the smallfolk' crop up increasingly looking back on the golden age of peace and prosperity - not Robert's reign, which tee'd up the current anarchy, but Aerys'.

Everything you've mentioned will count against her but I think she'll still be seen to represent a return to older, more civilised time - by virtue of being a Targ (ironically).

Actually, the commoners, the lowly peasants, at least those who are old enough to remember Targs, still consider Targ and Aeris the legitimate rule and Robert the Usurper. (I vaguely remember a scene (Arya or Tyrion one) where there is an old woman/man who still calls Robert the Usurper and Robert is actually long dead at this time). All the reasons that fueled Robert's Rebellion were relevant to Great Houses, Nobles and their knights, peasantry and commoners didn't care either way. All they wanted was stability and maybe a little lower taxes/tariffs, Targs had that. They controlled Westeros with strong grip, didn't allow nobles to fight and rebel and if they did - brutally finished them off. Roads were open, trade flowed, tariffs were controlled, there was relative peace and stability for 300 years under Targ rule and thats what commoners cared about! They didn't know or care that Aeris was mad, that Rhaegar stole Stark daughter. For them Robert usurped the throne and then taxes increased rapidly (since Robert and Lannisters were spenddrifts) and then all hell breaks loose, fields lie hallow, all those wars take a terrible human toll on populace, every warlord is in for himself and free to torture and tax and tariff as he wills and Winter is Coming! Dany already proved to be more of populist leader with that slave revolt, maybe nobles and knights would be against her but commoners and peasants will welcome her with open arms! For them, anyone who is a Targ is a legitimate ruler!

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Actually, the commoners, the lowly peasants, at least those who are old enough to remember Targs, still consider Targ and Aeris the legitimate rule and Robert the Usurper. (I vaguely remember a scene (Arya or Tyrion one) where there is an old woman/man who still calls Robert the Usurper and Robert is actually long dead at this time). All the reasons that fueled Robert's Rebellion were relevant to Great Houses, Nobles and their knights, peasantry and commoners didn't care either way. All they wanted was stability and maybe a little lower taxes/tariffs, Targs had that. They controlled Westeros with strong grip, didn't allow nobles to fight and rebel and if they did - brutally finished them off. Roads were open, trade flowed, tariffs were controlled, there was relative peace and stability for 300 years under Targ rule and thats what commoners cared about! They didn't know or care that Aeris was mad, that Rhaegar stole Stark daughter. For them Robert usurped the throne and then taxes increased rapidly (since Robert and Lannisters were spenddrifts) and then all hell breaks loose, fields lie hallow, all those wars take a terrible human toll on populace, every warlord is in for himself and free to torture and tax and tariff as he wills and Winter is Coming! Dany already proved to be more of populist leader with that slave revolt, maybe nobles and knights would be against her but commoners and peasants will welcome her with open arms! For them, anyone who is a Targ is a legitimate ruler!

In that case we're agreeing, right? I think that's one of Arya's scenes in ACoK, when the Lannisters are torturing villagers before hauling them off to Harrenhal.

ETA: After all, the Dance of Dragons and Blackfyre Rebellion were far distant memories when the War of the Usurper happened - and only those close to Aerys would have known about his plan to raze King's Landing.

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Just thinking about Targaryen Valyrian steel swords. Any chance Dany will end up with Blackfyre in her possession via Tyrion and the Golden Company? That would make a pretty cool Lightbringer. Or Dark Sister, wherever it ended up.

IMO, Dany already has Lightbringer: her dragons.

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Actually, in an upcoming Tyrion chapter Illyrio is taking Tyrion to Dany. There is also a boy with the group (young Griff?) and a mysterious sword of some import. The sword could be one of the missing Targ Valyrian steel blades.

Just thinking about the possibility R+L=young Griff, Ashara is with Connington (Griff), having taken young Griff to Rhaegar's oldest friend at the behest of Ned Stark.

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Just thinking about the possibility R+L=young Griff, Ashara is with Connington (Griff), having taken young Griff to Rhaegar's oldest friend at the behest of Ned Stark.

I don't see Ned giving away his sister's only son to a complete stranger(at the time his enemy).

Now, on the other side, Connington might have made a 'switch the baby' trick, the same way Jon did with Mance's kid, just to be sure the little boy is unharmed(Rhaegar considered him to be AA).

He probably didn't have the time to find a replacement for Rhaegar's daughter, or he thought that a little girl will not be in any danger, since Westeros doesn't allow females to inherit the throne.

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I don't see Ned giving away his sister's only son to a complete stranger(at the time his enemy).

Now, on the other side, Connington might have made a 'switch the baby' trick, the same way Jon did with Mance's kid, just to be sure the little boy is unharmed(Rhaegar considered him to be AA).

He probably didn't have the time to find a replacement for Rhaegar's daughter, or he thought that a little girl will not be in any danger, since Westeros doesn't allow females to inherit the throne.

Ned wouldn't have. He would have entrusted his sister's son to his lover. His lover, being the Elia's handmade, would have known Connington quite well, and known if he could be trusted.

Connington on the other hand was exiled too early to be involved in any child shenanigans.

The theory would be that Ned fathered Jon with Ashara shortly before or at the fingers. She would be the "fisherman's daughter" in Davos's preview chapter. the presumption being that they lied about her identity to protect her, he gave her silver to secure passage to Dorne (after knocking her up). Takes a little bit to secure a ship to Dorne, which is why the lord there finds out Ned knocked her up. She gives birth to Jon before Ned arrives in the South. Ned picks up the baby from Lyanna (who possibly has Targ coloring), doesn't know what to do with it, and goes to Ashara. Finds out hey, Ashara has his bastard.

This leaves Ned with a person loyal to the Targaryans willing to raise the child and capable of breast feeding who also happens to have similar eye and hair coloring. They arrange for her to fake her death, she crosses the sea, where she meets up with the loyal Connington carrying the baby Targ boy. Ned, with the motherless Jon is naturally given a suitable nursemaid by the greiving Daynes, to raise the child. No one questions Ashara's suicide, because there just isn't an explanation for her leaving her boy behind.

I think it fits with every bit of info we have so far.

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Did I miss a notice that all these posts have to be in spoiler tags? Isn't this thread open for speculation based on evidence from the published books?

Xcorpo001:

I don't see Ned giving away his sister's only son to a complete stranger(at the time his enemy).

Neither do I. Assuming R+L=J, why would Ned conspire in some convoluted scheme to give away Lyanna's son by Rhaegar? Ned was perfectly capable of keeping his promise to his sister and protecting the identity of her son's true parentage. As it is, Ned took that secret to his grave and even Jon doesn't know the truth.

Now, on the other side, Connington might have made a 'switch the baby' trick, the same way Jon did with Mance's kid, just to be sure the little boy is unharmed(Rhaegar considered him to be AA).

He probably didn't have the time to find a replacement for Rhaegar's daughter, or he thought that a little girl will not be in any danger, since Westeros doesn't allow females to inherit the throne.

I could see a plot to switch babies in order to protect Rhaegar's eldest son and heir, given his father's paranoia and refusal to let Elia and the children flee to safety before the sack.

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Connington is presumed to be dead from one of Jaime's POV, int the books we read so far.

But in Tyrion's POV sample from ADWD, we hear about Griff and young Griff.

The griffin was the mark of house Connington.

Some say young Griff is Lyanna's child with Rhaegar, some say he's Rhaegar's son with his wife smuggled out before Tywin's men got to the princess, or it might be just a young boy, probably his son(but this will be so very boring)...

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Hello all. Long time lurker (sounds creepy but whatever) first time poster. I to came to the R+L=J conclusion while reading AGOT. I never had any evidence just an emotional response to Ned's pain whenever he thinks of his sister which is a lot, and that one moment he plays over and over again (promise me). I only finished AGOT in February after a friends insistence that I read it and man oh man was I glad I listened. My shock when I found out that R+L=J is a very popular theory so that was pretty cool.

Just a question to throw out there, do you think the reason why the "Promise me Ned scene" is not in the HBO show so far (well the first 3 episodes I've yet to see the fourth) is because it would be to obvious on screen?? Do the producers know Jon's parentage?? Am I asking stupid questions?

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Hello all. Long time lurker (sounds creepy but whatever) first time poster. I to came to the R+L=J conclusion while reading AGOT. I never had any evidence just an emotional response to Ned's pain whenever he thinks of his sister which is a lot, and that one moment he plays over and over again (promise me). I only finished AGOT in February after a friends insistence that I read it and man oh man was I glad I listened. My shock when I found out that R+L=J is a very popular theory so that was pretty cool.

Just a question to throw out there, do you think the reason why the "Promise me Ned scene" is not in the HBO show so far (well the first 3 episodes I've yet to see the fourth) is because it would be to obvious on screen?? Do the producers know Jon's parentage?? Am I asking stupid questions?

Welcome! And no, you're not asking stupid questions. We've all asked these same questions over and over and OVER for years. We don't know yet whether R+L=J is in fact, true. And, IMHO, the reason we haven't yet seen 'promise me, Ned' on HBO is because there is still yet a lot of time to develop that thread of the story. There's been so much else that needed to get out there--the rising tension between Lannisters and Starks, the decline of King Robert and seething corruption in King's Landing, Jon Arryn's death and what it means, Bran's 'fall' and what that means, what exactly IS the rising threat beyond the Wall, etc etc. I think we all hope with all our hearts that we'll see a flashback to the Tower of Joy and the 'promise me, Ned' scene, and won't that be something? It won't answer the ultimate question of R+L=J, of course, but gads, it'll be wonderful to see, after so long wondering...

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Yes. No.

The producers discussed Jon's parentage with GRRM and he was pleased they'd figured it out.

Which makes the most likely thing R+L=J. I think this is both the most widely believed theory, so the most likely for the producers to pick up on.

Which to me would be pretty disappointing for me. I just don't see how R+L=J adds anything compelling, Jon as a Targ just falls flat. I dont see how two dominant Houses can coexist in a single character in a meaningful way. Take for instance Ghost. If Jon were to say develop the same link to a dragon, how can ghost not seem so impossibly small? "Oh yeah, I fly around on this giant dragon, but see that tiny spec down there. Thats my wolf.. yeah, he sort of cool too." Similarly how can he both be of the north, and yet strongly tied to a foreign invading family? I just don't see how the Targ portion of his heritage can be effectively highlighted without making the Stark portions seem pale and weak. Maybe Martin knows just how to balance this, but I just have a hard time seeing it.

I mean, if there was something about Jon's character that being a Targ really illuminated, or showed in a different light that would be something. But there just isnt. Take for instance an impossible scenario. Suppose that it were revealed that ran were a Targ. Then suddenly his warging, his seemingly crushed dreams of being a knight, his love of magic all lead on a path that is illuminated by his heritage. But Jon? Seems like nothing changes.

And for people who want to see Jon and Dany hook up, I mean wouldnt that make you want Jon not to be a Targ? I mean, are you really fired up over the possibility of incest?

Anyways, I just see R+L as unsatisfying, though highly likely. I like trying to see if there are alternate theories that make sense because I find the most likely one to be so very boring and uninspired.

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Which to me would be pretty disappointing for me. I just don't see how R+L=J adds anything compelling, Jon as a Targ just falls flat. I dont see how two dominant Houses can coexist in a single character in a meaningful way.

I don't understand what you mean here. Are you saying that symbolically it's hard for Jon to be both Targ and Stark?

Take for instance Ghost. If Jon were to say develop the same link to a dragon, how can ghost not seem so impossibly small? "Oh yeah, I fly around on this giant dragon, but see that tiny spec down there. Thats my wolf.. yeah, he sort of cool too."

You're assuming that Jon will ride a dragon, but we don't really know if he will. In fact, we don't know if he'll even accept his Targ heritage, or even if he'll find out about it.

Similarly how can he both be of the north, and yet strongly tied to a foreign invading family?

How can Robb or Bran or Arya or Rickon be of the North, when they are also strongly tied to the Riverlands? (Notice I'm not including Sansa here, because she really isn't of the North despite her Stark heritage; similarly, Jon really is of the North, despite his presumed Targaryen heritage.)

I mean, if there was something about Jon's character that being a Targ really illuminated, or showed in a different light that would be something. But there just isnt.

What would Jon's mother being Ashara or Wylla illuminate about his character?

Questions of identity are an integral part of Jon's character. If he finds out about his true parentage (assuming R+L=J), I guarantee it'll floor him and throw everything he thought he knew about himself, and about what he wanted, into question. So really, I don't think it's true that this does nothing for his character.

Suppose that it were revealed that ran were a Targ.

Ran is a Targ?!?! Wow, suddenly it all makes sense...:)

Then suddenly his warging, his seemingly crushed dreams of being a knight, his love of magic all lead on a path that is illuminated by his heritage. But Jon? Seems like nothing changes.

This confused me. Are you saying that Bran finding out he's really a Targ would make sense for his character, but not for Jon's? I'm sorry, but that strikes me as backwards.

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Which makes the most likely thing R+L=J. I think this is both the most widely believed theory, so the most likely for the producers to pick up on.

Which to me would be pretty disappointing for me. I just don't see how R+L=J adds anything compelling, Jon as a Targ just falls flat. I dont see how two dominant Houses can coexist in a single character in a meaningful way. Take for instance Ghost. If Jon were to say develop the same link to a dragon, how can ghost not seem so impossibly small? "Oh yeah, I fly around on this giant dragon, but see that tiny spec down there. Thats my wolf.. yeah, he sort of cool too." Similarly how can he both be of the north, and yet strongly tied to a foreign invading family? I just don't see how the Targ portion of his heritage can be effectively highlighted without making the Stark portions seem pale and weak. Maybe Martin knows just how to balance this, but I just have a hard time seeing it.

I mean, if there was something about Jon's character that being a Targ really illuminated, or showed in a different light that would be something. But there just isnt. Take for instance an impossible scenario. Suppose that it were revealed that ran were a Targ. Then suddenly his warging, his seemingly crushed dreams of being a knight, his love of magic all lead on a path that is illuminated by his heritage. But Jon? Seems like nothing changes.

And for people who want to see Jon and Dany hook up, I mean wouldnt that make you want Jon not to be a Targ? I mean, are you really fired up over the possibility of incest?

Anyways, I just see R+L as unsatisfying, though highly likely. I like trying to see if there are alternate theories that make sense because I find the most likely one to be so very boring and uninspired.

What parentage would be more inspiring? A Dornish wet-nurse or Noblewoman? A

fisherman's wife

? There are lots of characters that have parentage from two dominant houses, including all of Jon's half-siblings.

I don't think Jon having Targaryen blood makes any difference to him mystically or emotionally. He's still a half-Stark by blood and Stark by upbringing, he's more Northron than his half-siblings/cousins in appearance and he's got a strong bond to his wolf and the ability to warg like some of his Stark half-siblings/cousins. Bran seems to be the Stark who may be able to warg into different animals besides his wolf and if anyone is going to warg a dragon, he's my best bet, and he doesn't have a drop of Targaryen blood as far as anyone knows.

I suppose Jon being a half-Targ could make his political situation more interesting if others were to find out, but not necessarily. Assuming R+L=J, unless Rhaegar married Lyanna in secret and that marriage could be documented and accepted as legal, Jon would still be considered a bastard with one Stark parent and a dead father. Just like Maester Aemon - a full Targ, Jon's still a man of the Night's Watch which is a life-long commitment and one he can't volunteer to retire from unless maybe his service on the Wall is no longer required (because the Wall no longer stands or the enemies North of the Wall are defeated).

Whether Jon's mother is a Stark and his father a Targ, or Jon's father is a Stark and his mother a Dornish household servant or Noblewoman doesn't change Jon's personality, but it might give him some closure on the biggest question he has in his life.

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