Is Rhaegar alive?!?

[Rockroi]

I'd like to suggest an alternative for Rhaegar being alive. I'd like to start, not with Rhaegar himself, or some imposter/confederate donning his armor at the trident and dying in his place.

Somehow this theory is worse.

Are we to believe that Rahegar, instead of trying to win the rebellion, save his family- not just his mad father, but mother, brother, wife and two children, to say nothing of his mistress and her child (he did not know about Dany yet), stop a pack of criminals and save the realm, instead decided to go all Don Draper on us and fake his own death? Why? Where's the upside? Is Rhaegar just fed up with it all and decides "Screw it"? What Rhaegar are we discussing, then? Because nobody in the books takes Rhaegar for this type of personality! His decribed as dutiful and honorable. But, add to the list, apparently, irreparably zany?

In order to even GET to this level of blatant irresponsibility Rhaegar would have to believe he would lose on the Trident; something NOBODY seems to have in mind- and we know AT LEAST two people who interacted with Rhaegar in the days before the battle: Selmy and Jaime- nether thinks this the case. In fact, with Jaime, quite the opposite: Rhaegar has post-war plans that include removing Aerys.

The theory that Rhaegar is somehow Mance Ryder is, well, just preposterous: no evidence, no sensible reason why; no clues, no reason.

[Xcorpyo001]

My beautiful(and unlikely to ever came true) theory is starting to get more and more twisted by the minute.

Let's return to the basis:

In the middle of the battle, and in the confusion of people looking for rubies, his body could just been caught by the current of the river or mixed up with someone else body. Nobody was watching for a (thought to be)dead guy.

Rhaegar, gravely wounded or even dead, ends up on the shores where a healing brother has a small monastery.

The brother either heals him, or if he's dead performs the death rituals of R'hllor(Targ converted to faith later, but they fallowed R'hllor at first), as a token of respect for a really great Targ prince

His recovery takes a while, so by the time he's back on his feet, his entire family is dead, there is a new king, etc.

He knows that all the lives that were lost are a result of his own actions, and he starts to repent and wants to spent the remaining of his life helping people and atoning for his past sins.

If he's trying to find his family, the Targ loyalists will raise to battle and they'll have to have another war, and he wants to stop that from happening.

He cant't tell people that he's Rhaegar because they'll kill him and the brothers for hiding him and helping him heal

Robert couldn't look for his body because that will raise rumors about him being alive

Targ loyalist believed the soldiers that were in the battle(even if they were wrong), and couldn't openly say that he's alive, because that will be treason against the Baratheon family.

I think that his Targ blood helped him with his 'healing hands'

But to take this already very unlikely theory and built on it false RHaegars and Vances and Raydens and blablabla....not bloody likely :)

[morbiczer]

Targ converted to faith later, but they fallowed R'hllor at first

I don't think the Targs ever followed R'hllor. We know that Aegon's three dragons were named after old Valyrian gods (Balerion, Vhagar, Meraxes). Not sure when they switched to the Faith, but Aegon was following the Seven at the time of the Conquest.

[Dragonfish]

I think that his Targ blood helped him with his 'healing hands'

What exactly are you basing this on? When have Targaryens ever been shown to be better healers by virtue of their Targ blood?

But to take this already very unlikely theory and built on it false RHaegars and Vances and Raydens and blablabla....not bloody likely :)

It's also "not bloody likely" because, you know, Rhaegar was cremated. End of story.

[Viking]

<br />Somehow this theory is worse.  <br /><br />Are we to believe that Rahegar, instead of trying to win the rebellion, save his family- not just his mad father, but mother, brother, wife and two children, to say nothing of his mistress and her child (he did not know about Dany yet), stop a pack of criminals and save the realm, instead decided to go all Don Draper on us and fake his own death?  Why?  Where's the upside?  Is Rhaegar just fed up with it all and decides &quot;Screw it&quot;?  What Rhaegar are we discussing, then?  Because nobody in the books takes Rhaegar for this type of personality!  His decribed as dutiful and honorable.  But, add to the list, apparently, irreparably zany?  <br /><br />In order to even GET to this level of blatant irresponsibility Rhaegar would have to believe he would lose on the Trident; something NOBODY seems to have in mind- and we know AT LEAST two people who interacted with Rhaegar in the days before the battle: Selmy and Jaime- nether thinks this the case.  In fact, with Jaime, quite the opposite: Rhaegar has post-war plans that include removing Aerys. <br /><br />The theory that Rhaegar is somehow Mance Ryder is, well, just preposterous: no evidence, no sensible reason why; no clues, no reason.<br />

<br /><br /><br />

Rhaegar tells Jamie that when he gets back he will make some changes. He doesn't say when he gets back. My suggestion is that the young bookish and music loving Rhaegar finds a book regarding the prophecy that Azor Ahai will be reborn. He starts his task of preparing for the Prince that was Promised and saving the world. His family, throne etc. would all be secondary to a man dedicated to a prophesy. Barristan the Bold tells Dany that Jaheris he grandfather said that genius and madness were two sides of the same coin for targaryens. Azor Ahai is born amid smoke and salt when the red star bleeds (the comet). There are only two children born since the red star was first observed, Mance Rayders son and Craster's son by Gilly.

What smoke and salt mean is not clear and the birth might be figurative, but still, I don't think this is that easily dismissed.

Or maybe somebody like Jon Connington fresh from his banishment for his failure at the battle of the bells donned his armor and took his role in the battle while Rhaegar did something "more important", or Rhaegar had the prophesy that if he fought there the world would fall to the others. Much of what we don't know is what Rhaegar found in the books he read before becoming a warrior. Sam Tarley is presumably scanning the books in oldtown looking for old books about the others and will presumably find what Rhaegar found, with Gilly and Mance Rayders son conveniently nearby.

[Viking]

It's also not bloody likely because, you know, Rhaegar was cremated. End of story.

Jamie does refer to the crows pecking out the eyes of rhaegar after the trident. Other false bodies have been used so far (Bran and Rickon) in the books. Jon Connington supposedly drank himself to death in exile. Maybe it was Jon Connington playing Patrocolus to Rhaegars Achilles?

[Dragonfish]

Rhaegar tells Jamie that when he gets back he will make some changes. He doesn't say when he gets back.

IIRC, Rhaegar says this to Jaime right as he's riding out with the newly regathered Targaryen host to confront Robert on the Trident.

Azor Ahai is born amid smoke and salt when the red star bleeds (the comet). There are only two children born since the red star was first observed, Mance Rayders son and Craster's son by Gilly.

Ummm...Mance's son was born a good while after the Red Comet was observed.

What smoke and salt mean is not clear and the birth might be figurative, but still, I don't think this is that easily dismissed.

IMO, it is figurative, and refers to Dany being "reborn" on Drogo's pyre, which actually did occur right when the comet appeared.

Or maybe somebody like Jon Connington fresh from his banishment for his failure at the battle of the bells donned his armor and took his role in the battle while Rhaegar did something "more important", or Rhaegar had the prophesy that if he fought there the world would fall to the others. Much of what we don't know is what Rhaegar found in the books he read before becoming a warrior. Sam Tarley is presumably scanning the books in oldtown looking for old books about the others and will presumably find what Rhaegar found, with Gilly and Mance Rayders son conveniently nearby.

Look, when GRRM was asked what happened to Rhaegar's body, he said it was cremated. He wasn't circumspect about it, he didn't offer a cryptic answer, he didn't say something like "you'll have to keep reading." He flat out stated that Rhaegar's body was cremated. Compare that to his tight-lipped answers to the question of whether or not baby Aegon is dead. The fact is, Rhaegar is dead. No question about it.

ETA: @ Viking

"Jamie does refer to the crows pecking out the eyes of rhaegar after the trident. Other false bodies have been used so far (Bran and Rickon) in the books. Jon Connington supposedly drank himself to death in exile. Maybe it was Jon Connington playing Patrocolus to Rhaegars Achilles?"

Except, as I said above, GRRM told us that Rhaegar's body was cremated. End of story.

[Xcorpyo001]

I don't think the Targs ever followed R'hllor. We know that Aegon's three dragons were named after old Valyrian gods (Balerion, Vhagar, Meraxes). Not sure when they switched to the Faith, but Aegon was following the Seven at the time of the Conquest.

Faith, of faith of the seven, is one and the same.

And at first the Targs fallowed the old Valyrian gods. Since they believe they have dragon blood or fire in their veins, its safe to assume they were serving R'hllor, or the Valyrian version of it.

The Targaryens then abandoned the Valyrian gods and converted to the Andal faith of the Seven Gods,

This is from the wiki. I'm to tired now to try to find in which they mention it, but it said something about the ritual.

I found the part about the last kiss.

"I have no magic, child. Only prayers. That first time, his lordship had a hole right through him and blood in his mouth, I knew there was no hope. So when his poor torn chest stopped moving, I gave him the good god's own kiss to send him on his way. I filled my mouth with fire and breathed the flames inside him, down his throat to lungs and heart and soul. The last kiss it is called, and many a time I saw the old priests bestow it on the Lord's servants as they died. I had given it a time or two myself, as all priests must. But never before had I felt a dead man shudder as the fire filled him, nor seen his eyes come open. It was not me who raised him, my lady. It was the Lord. R'hllor is not done with him yet. Life is warmth, and warmth is fire, and fire is God's and God's alone."

I know this is a long shot, so I'm basing my theory on the idea that Rhaegar was wounded badly(was Ko-ed by the blow), but in the confusion his body was just carried away by the river.

Both sides considered him dead and didn't stopped to check his body. They had other problems on their mind: stealing rubies and trying to survive.

The Targ army lost their will to fight and Robert's forces were busing pursuing the enemy to kill as many as possible while they were retreating.

The blow looked fatal, and I don't think Roberts stopped every time he hit someone with his hammer to check for a pulse. Not in the middle of the fight.

[Dragonfish]

And at first the Targs fallowed the old Valyrian gods. Since they believe they have dragon blood or fire in their veins, its safe to assume they were serving R'hllor, or the Valyrian version of it.

No, it isn't. Followers of R'hllor believe in one true god. Valyrians believed in at least three gods, Vhagar, Meraxes, and Balerion. One is monotheistic, the other is polytheistic. It's difficult to conclude from this that they're the same religion. At the very least, it most certainly is not "safe to assume" they're the same religion.

I know this is a long shot, so I'm basing my theory on the idea that Rhaegar was wounded badly(was Ko-ed by the blow), but in the confusion his body was just carried away by the river.

Both sides considered him dead and didn't stopped to check his body. They had other problems on their mind: stealing rubies and trying to survive.

The Targ army lost their will to fight and Robert's forces were busing pursuing the enemy to kill as many as possible while they were retreating.

The blow looked fatal, and I don't think Roberts stopped every time he hit someone with his hammer to check for a pulse. Not in the middle of the fight.

All of this is well and good, except that GRRM told us Rhaegar's body was cremated. Are you going to address this fact at all?

[Xcorpyo001]

No, it isn't. Followers of R'hllor believe in one true god. Valyrians believed in at least three gods, Vhagar, Meraxes, and Balerion. One is monotheistic, the other is polytheistic. It's difficult to conclude from this that they're the same religion. At the very least, it most certainly is not "safe to assume" they're the same religion.

All of this is well and good, except that GRRM told us Rhaegar's body was cremated. Are you going to address this fact at all?

Of course I will address it.

Which Rhaegar????...won't work, huh? :tantrum:

This topic(the OP) is my first post here, and I was unaware that I had to read/listen to all of GRRM press conferences and interviews before starting any theory about the books :)

From what I remembered from the book, it seemed possible at the time, although not likely.(GRRM put a huge hole in my theory with that answer).

The battle between Roger and Rhaegar is told by many people, all stories are a little different, so there were question marks about it. Why the river(how deep was the water) and not on land, did he wore a helmet hiding his face, how did Robert managed to kill him in one on one combat since Dayne was said to be the best fighter in the world, and Rhaegar was in par with him?

The moment he was hit in the chest and the rubies fell off, all soldier from both sides rushed to get them, so it probably was a lot of confusion, with all the fighting, killing, retreating, etc. Did anyone really checked to see if he had a pulse? Where is his resting place(grave, urn with ashes; I've always thought Dani will want to visit his resting place once she arrived in Westeros)

And a strange fighter from the same battle and close to Rhaegar ended up wounded on the same shore as Rhaegar's rubies. He seems to be smart, likes reading, and his story had some similarities with Rhaegar's story(or some facts that can be seen as metaphors for Rhaegar).

But it seems it's just a bad theory. He's dead and burned and over.

[oba]

The battle between Roger and Rhaegar is told by many people, all stories are a little different, so there were question marks about it.

Why the river(how deep was the water) and not on land

The rebel forces were on the other side of the Trident. Rhaegar's forces attempted to cross to confront them.

did he wore a helmet hiding his face

Jaime speaks with Rhaegar in the Red Keep before Rhaegar takes his army to the Trident. Jaime sees Rhaegar mount his horse, put on his helm, and ride off for battle. Are you proposing that somewhere along the way to the Trident Rhaegar switched places with someone else?

how did Robert managed to kill him in one on one combat since Dayne was said to be the best fighter in the world, and Rhaegar was in par with him?

1. Greatest fighter doesn't equal "invincible".

2. The only person who says Rhaegar was Arthur Dayne's peer was Viserys, hardly the most reliable source. Barristan, who knew both Rhaegar and Arthur Dayne not only doesn't agree with Viserys, but he dismisses the whole notion of a "warrior without peer".

"As you command." The old man leaned upon his hardwood staff, his brow furrowed. "A warrior without peer ... those are fine words, Your Grace, but words win no battles."

"Swords win battles," Ser Jorah said bluntly. "And Prince Rhaegar knew how to use one."

"He did, ser, but ... I have seen a hundred tournaments and more wars than I would wish, and however strong or fast or skilled a knight may be, there are others who can match him. A man will win one tourney, and fall quickly in the next. A slick spot in the grass may mean defeat, or what you ate for supper the night before. A change in the wind may bring the gift of victory."

The moment he was hit in the chest and the rubies fell off, all soldier from both sides rushed to get them, so it probably was a lot of confusion, with all the fighting, killing, retreating, etc. Did anyone really checked to see if he had a pulse? Where is his resting place(grave, urn with ashes; I've always thought Dani will want to visit his resting place once she arrived in Westeros)

And a strange fighter from the same battle and close to Rhaegar ended up wounded on the same shore as Rhaegar's rubies. He seems to be smart, likes reading, and his story had some similarities with Rhaegar's story(or some facts that can be seen as metaphors for Rhaegar).

Meanwhile, Robert was a notable fighter in his own right. I don't really think it stretches the limits of credibility to say that Robert was able to kill Rhaegar in battle while sustaining a wound himself.

But it seems it's just a bad theory. He's dead and burned and over.

Anything's possible, but I think this one is pretty far-fetched.

[Dragonfish]

This topic(the OP) is my first post here, and I was unaware that I had to read/listen to all of GRRM press conferences and interviews before starting any theory about the books :)

From what I remembered from the book, it seemed possible at the time, although not likely.(GRRM put a huge hole in my theory with that answer).

I understand, but the fact that GRRM confirmed Rhaegar was cremated has been mentioned several times in the thread, yet you continued to persist with your theory. I'm not saying you had to know every little thing that George said before posting, I'm saying that after being made aware of the fact that George said Rhaegar was cremated you should have abandoned the theory. That's all. :)

And a strange fighter from the same battle and close to Rhaegar ended up wounded on the same shore as Rhaegar's rubies. He seems to be smart, likes reading, and his story had some similarities with Rhaegar's story(or some facts that can be seen as metaphors for Rhaegar).

The Elder Brother's story only superficially resembles Rhaegar's story, but if you examine them closely you'll see that they actually contradict each other. Saying that their stories are the same is like trying fit a square peg in a round hole.

But it seems it's just a bad theory. He's dead and burned and over.

Well, at least we agree on something. :)

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

I thought, and I might be wrong, that Robert's blow had crushed in his chest to the point it was a fatal blow, and clearly so.

That warhammer, swung by a man consumed of that much hate for Targaryens, I am a little surprised it didn't go straight through, armor be damned. :dunno:

Yeah Eddard says that when he came to the Battle,Rhaegar was dead becuase Robert swung that warhammer so hard it caved in his chest.

[Crazydog7]

My favorite is still the Faceless Man double theory.

Ned Lives!!!

[Kaitscralt]

how did Robert managed to kill him in one on one combat since Dayne was said to be the best fighter in the world, and Rhaegar was in par with him?

Any number of ways.

1) Rhaegar stepped on a slimy, algae-covered stone and lost his balance for one second, then got battered by a warhammer.

2) Rhaegar's foot got stuck in mud, then got battered by a warhammer.

3) Rhaegar believed he needed to die for one of his obsessive prophecies to be fulfilled, and let the blow strike.

4) Rhaegar's opponent was in an adrenaline-fueled berserker mode because of Lyanna's kidnapping, and could not be defeated.

5) Rhaegar made a simple miscalculation, thrusted wrong, parried too late -- a human error during a life-and-death situation.

6) Howland Reed snuck up behind Rhaegar, possibly swimming underwater, and stabbed him in the leg. :rolleyes:

[Xcorpyo001]

Any number of ways.

1) Rhaegar stepped on a slimy, algae-covered stone and lost his balance for one second, then got battered by a warhammer.

2) Rhaegar's foot got stuck in mud, then got battered by a warhammer.

3) Rhaegar believed he needed to die for one of his obsessive prophecies to be fulfilled, and let the blow strike.

4) Rhaegar's opponent was in an adrenaline-fueled berserker mode because of Lyanna's kidnapping, and could not be defeated.

5) Rhaegar made a simple miscalculation, thrusted wrong, parried too late -- a human error during a life-and-death situation.

6) Howland Reed snuck up behind Rhaegar, possibly swimming underwater, and stabbed him in the leg. :rolleyes:

6. Howland Reed was to upset to fight in the battle. He wanted to kill Rhaegar and his entire army by himself, but Robert wanted to have his moment of fame and declined his request.

Or if he was fighting, he was in another region, keeping Ned alive.

5. He wasn't a human, he was a Dragon. Dragon do not make mistakes.

4. Rage in battle can go both ways. The adrenaline can give him a little boost, in strength, but fighting without usinf his head can be a huge mistake, especially against a better swordsman.

3. Can't say nothing about this one. Could be true(especially since he just returned from ToJ and knows that Lyanna is hurt/dying).

2. Or he could have an heart attack from the huge amount of effort he put in the fight.

1. Or maybe he dropped a coin and wanted to pick it up. Or he was hit by a micro asteroid. Or he sneezed.

While fighting multiple opponents, anything can happen. But in a one vs one fight, a good fighter can pay enough attention to the terrain/surroundings to avoid mishaps. Or maybe he can't.

Alas, GRRM killed this theory with one of his press conferences. The Big Brother can't be Rhaegar, because Rhaegar's body was cremated. So the question is, who the hell is he?

[Kittyhat]

5. He wasn't a human, he was a Dragon. Dragon do not make mistakes.

Er.

I hate to be the one to burst your bubble on this one, but he wasn't actually a dragon, even though this house has a connection to them. Also, and this may come as a shock, but Arya Stark is not actually a dire wolf, even though she says she is.

4. Rage in battle can go both ways. The adrenaline can give him a little boost, in strength, but fighting without usinf his head can be a huge mistake, especially against a better swordsman.

Rage-fueled adrenaline doesn't just give a "little" boost ...

... and it's possible to control and focus that rage. Just because you get an adrenaline boost from anger, that doesn't automatically mean you have to begin flailing about wildly.

While fighting multiple opponents, anything can happen. But in a one vs one fight, a good fighter can pay enough attention to the terrain/surroundings to avoid mishaps. Or maybe he can't.

There is always the potential for an unexpected variable. Real fights are not clean, choreographed things. They're fast and brutal, and they tend to include some stumbling and improvisation. Throw in less than perfectly even terrain and a battle raging all around, and it just gets worse.

[Dragonfish]

5. He wasn't a human, he was a Dragon. Dragon do not make mistakes.

I guess Aerys must have planned to be killed in a rebellion, then.

While fighting multiple opponents, anything can happen. But in a one vs one fight, a good fighter can pay enough attention to the terrain/surroundings to avoid mishaps. Or maybe he can't.

Someone in the books, I think either Jorah or Barristan, explains to Dany that fighting doesn't work like that. No one is so good at fighting as to be able to completely account for his surroundings, especially when their footing is submerged beneath a river, which Rhaegar's was. Honestly, there's nothing fishy about Rhaegar falling to Robert.

[Xcorpyo001]

Er.

I hate to be the one to burst your bubble on this one, but he wasn't actually a dragon, even though this house has a connection to them. Also, and this may come as a shock, but Arya Stark is not actually a dire wolf, even though she says she is.

Rage-fueled adrenaline doesn't just give a "little" boost ...

... and it's possible to control and focus that rage. Just because you get an adrenaline boost from anger, that doesn't automatically mean you have to begin flailing about wildly.

There is always the potential for an unexpected variable. Real fights are not clean, choreographed things. They're fast and brutal, and they tend to include some stumbling and improvisation. Throw in less than perfectly even terrain and a battle raging all around, and it just gets worse.

Not only is he a Dragon, but he's also the PTWP. He staged this entire war just so he could fool the others in believing that the last Targs(and with them the return of AA) are no more, and it was safe to begin their final attack.

When the real bad guys will reveal themselves, so will Rhaegar.

So, since he's a dragon, PTWP and AA reborned, he can't make mistake.

Control and focus the battle rage?

The word "berserker" today applies to anyone who fights with reckless abandon and disregard to even their own life, a concept used during the Vietnam War and in Vietnam-inspired literature (Michael Herr's Dispatches) and film (Oliver Stone's Platoon and Adrian Lyne's Jacob's Ladder). "Going berserk" in this context refers to an overdose of adrenaline-induced opioids in the human body and brain leading a soldier to fight with fearless rage and indifference, a state strikingly similar to that of the 9th century berserkers observed in this article.

"Going berserk" is also used colloquially to describe a person who is acting in a wild rage or in an uncontrolled and irrational manner. A recent controversy among civil rights advocates and law enforcement and emergency medicine professionals involves a state called "excited delirium"

Not very likely!

But then again, Robert had a year to calm himself down, so he wasn't in a battle rage. Not a big one. Many many many visits to almost all the brothers in Westeros helped him in that regard.

Selmy and the others are thinking at their own fighting skills.

When it comes to battle prowess, there is Dayne with Rhaegar a close second, Chuck Norris third and everybody else as fodder.

There are no mistake in the top 3.

PS: I'm sorry that I mislead you in answering to this dead thread. I was just making a joke in regard to the post before my own. I hoped that anyone reading it, will see I wasn't serious(R being a dragon, heart attack during fight, micro meteorite, Reed soloing R+his entire army, etc).

Hmmm, I think I should also tell those guys in the S+S topic that I'm pulling their chain :). Or maybe not right now :devil:

[Kittyhat]

Control and focus the battle rage?

Yes. Combat technique for a highly skilled fighter (such as Robert was) is all ingrained muscle memory; it's done "without thought" (which is what's meant by the concept of "no mind," but I digress). As long as your rage is controlled, it's perfectly possible to enjoy the benefits of increased strength, pain tolerance and reaction time that adrenaline offers without causing your technique to suffer much or at all.

Now flying into a blind rage is a different matter. I think that's what you're talking about with "berserking," but it's not really relevant to my point here.

Selmy and the others are thinking at their own fighting skills.

When it comes to battle prowess, there is Dayne with Rhaegar a close second, Chuck Norris third and everybody else as fodder.

There are no mistake in the top 3.

Okay, yeah, you're trolling. You got me. :blush: