[Book Spoilers] EP104 Discussion

[Huan]

In the books the Mountain is larger than life, here you barely get a sense of how big he is.

All they had to do was show him walking past Arya on his way to the joust or something, to emphasize how big he is.

I thought he looked pretty huge next to Ser Hugh when they were side by side in front of the king. Ser Hugh towered over Jory in the earlier scene.

[End of Disc One]

I thought Gendry looked a lot like Robert, and I like the way they handled the realization.

[Mazikeen]

Costuming/Heraldry - The costumes look good for the most part, but I think they missed an opportunity to show another thing that really sets this series apart. Everyone is too gray/brown, the series needs more color. If I didn't read the books, I don't think I could tell you the difference between the Kingsguard and the City Watch, or the difference between any of the people in the inn. When Cat was rattling off her list in the inn, I laughed when she kept saying things like "I recognize your sigul as well", because I couldn't see anyone wearing any sigul. I think they purposely toned down the costumes and heraldry that Martin describes but I think it was a poor choice. Martin's descriptions are almost comic bookish, but I mean that in a good way. It also would help viewers keep track of who is in who's house. I want to see Jaime's golden armor, I want to see Renly's sparkling green armor and golden antlers, I want the loathing to overtake me when I see the twin towers of the Freys on some random soldier, I want to see the bat of Harrenhall, I want to see each moon on ser Hugh's cloak turn from white to red...

Pretty much this.

The lack of actual sigils on coats at the inn is one of my few quibbles with this episode. "Is that the bat of Harrenhal I see on your coat?" "No, m'lady, I don't have no bats on me." Oops.

The issue of drab colours and more distinctive costumes is something that is bothering me a bit about the series. I realize that costuming is expensive, but it wouldn't hurt if some of the characters changed their clothes once in a while (I think Catelyn has been wearing that green dress for 2 or 3 episodes now). One thought was that they could perhaps use the same costume as base but overlay different accessories or fake embroidery to make it seem slightly different.

[Jojen]

I don't mind Hodor's gray hair. Some people go bald early (Stannis), some people gray early. No reason Hodor can't have gone prematurely gray.

As for the LF telling Sansa about the Hound's secret, while I agree they should have had Sandor tell her himself, it serves a secondary purpose by pointing out the hypocracy of the "chivalrous" knight and using it to burst Sansa's bubble over it. Although, granted, she hasn't exactly been swooning over them like in the book, but I think she likely still comes to this understanding on her own. It's as much about knights in general as it is about the Hound.

[PestilencE]

This episode had a different writer.

I don't know if it was that, or just the decision to cram in a lot of backstory, infodumps, and Westeros history, and too little happening, but the episode was rather weak for me.

I had the exact same thoughts after viewing...

I don't know whom you're quoting, but I had the exact same thoughts as you and him as well.

The budget's restrictions were bearable up to this point, but the tourney's (well, half of it) overall blandness was especially hard to accept.

[Ser Bronn o the Blackwater]

Hodor looks older than I imagined

Gonna have to agree with you there. I always pictured him maybe in his twenties somewhere.

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

I Always thought Hodor was younger. It doesn't really make a difference though.

[PhoenixFlame]

Maybe whatever made Hodor only say "Hodor" gave him gray hair too :laugh:

But why on earth was Hugh pacing a joust line? That's what you do for jumping shows...

[legba11]

Because Hugh is completely unready to be a knight. In the books, he dies because he is too incompetent to put his armor on properly and doesn't have a squire. He is also noticeably uncomfortable moving in the armor before the joust.

[Balefont]

Perhaps Ned could have stared at Gendry as he did, then mumbled to himself in wonderment, something like "...the exact young man that he was, all those years ago..."

That would have given too much away to the characters in the scene that something is up. Also, gotta watch out for those little birds.

No, for the most part, Ned keeps a lot to himself.

[IheartTesla]

I have nothing much to add, except that I'll probably like this episode a little bit more on rewatch (and I want to test out my new avatar). Went a bit crazy reading reviews and recaps and downloading gifs, so I think I'll be in a better frame of mind and catch some new things the second time around.

[Mya Stone]

Two things I noticed on rewatch (one good, one head scratcher):

1. Tyrion's line about "nothing better than watching sailors burn" was a great bit of foreshadowing to his chain in season 2.

2. Why is Viserys riding his horse when they arrive at Vaes Dothrak? (sp. most likely) I thought he was forced to walk? (That's really minor, but stuck out to me.)

[Blue Steel]

It's Catelyn's fault that Cersei was having an affair with her brother who threw Bran out of a window. How dare she?

[Mad Sweeney]

One detail about extras -- IIRC, the production has noted that the tourney sequence had the greatest number of extras and crew involved of any other scene they did in the show.

One thing about the extras... they SUCK. Putting aside the fact that there's too few of them, if you actually wash them, they're just awful. Realize though that being an extra is a demoralizing, menial task that I can't understand why they'd want to do it. I work in film/TV and they just get treated like crap, bossed around, paid low, yelled at for making noise during takes and yet they're absolutely essential to create any feeling of realism. Watch the scene with Jon fighting (apologies, I can't remember which time, but somewhere in this episode). The two guys right behind them are barely going through the motions and are just trying to not make noise with their swords. There've been many examples of this like Dothraki people skinning a critter and stirring cookpots. It drives me nuts. I understand why these people fail at an impossible task, but after the first take with the idiots behind Jon, the director should've moved some people in there that don't look like they're about to start giggling.

eta: I realize too that most of them are locals to Ireland and aren't all necessarily professional extras. It wouldn't surprise me if many of them are first day on a set, unlike the hordes of pros that are in LA, waiting for their big break. If HBO is cutting so much for budget reasons, I doubt they're bringing up experienced background actors, so I am quite sure most of them are locals.

As I said also, there just aren't enough extras for the grandeur of the books. This effect can be lessened by camerawork and direction, but they've failed often at that as well. The tourney certainly, but in more mundane areas too. Like everywhere not in a closed room! Take the entrance shot of ned getting to KL. There's a high shot that goes towards the gate and there are peasants looking up and walking towards the group. But there's like a force field at the edges of the shot and you can just tell that there are no other people around on the periphery of the shot.

I understand the budgetary concerns, but IMO, there's a lot of sloppy filmmaking going on here and it really irks me.

[Mad Sweeney]

Because Hugh is completely unready to be a knight. In the books, he dies because he is too incompetent to put his armor on properly and doesn't have a squire. He is also noticeably uncomfortable moving in the armor before the joust.

Well, you know that, and the fact that the Mountain killed him on purpose.

[Maester Cressan]

That's a joke, I guess?! Okay, the whole Sansador thing might be a "nice" extra characterisation for a minor character (even though it is completely unnecessary for his role), but come on, Lyanna? She has already had much too much screen time by now, and I don't see how she is important at all in the first four books - while the Greyjoys are, and (the) Dragons are and their skulls are going to be shown this very season.

Ah... what?

What screen time? She shows up in episode 1 and it is never fully explained what happened. She's briefly mentioned in episode 2. Then nothing.

Unimportant? She's only the entire reason the rebellion started, the reason Robert hates the Targaryans with an irrational level of hate, the reason Cersei hates her husband the King. And that's just the stuff that's out there in the open.

She's also hinted to be the major guilt trip that drives Ned Stark in half his actions.

How can she be anything but hugely important in book 1? True she fades in importance after the first book, but leaving her out is leaving a huge, huge hole in the plot, the motivations, and the character development of our three major players of season 1: Ned, Robert, and Cersei.

Then add in that Lyanna can provide help to Arya's story line as well, since it would provide an older model for her- both an ideal and a warning.

I just don't get why she's being left out. I'm not saying they need to spend a whole episode on her, just little dribbles.

Three lines. Just three lines in episode 3, and it would have improve the Arya-Ned scene.

Ned: wistfully "You remind me of my sister."

Arya: surprised "Aunt Lyanna was beautiful."

Ned: sadly "She was, beautiful and wild, and dead before her time."

That's it. Three lines and now we know Lyanna's name and that she was like Arya, so we like her already, and she came to a tragic end. Making us feel sorry for Lyanna, and worried for Arya.

Then spend just a little time this episode showing Robert is still hung up on her. Yeah, I know we found that out in episode 1, but we could do with a reminder this far in.

[Asha—Not Yara!]

2. Why is Viserys riding his horse when they arrive at Vaes Dothrak? (sp. most likely) I thought he was forced to walk? (That's really minor, but stuck out to me.)

I thought it was a temporary punishment and assumed after some time passed, they let back on the horse again.

[ExLibris]

Two things I noticed on rewatch (one good, one head scratcher):

1. Tyrion's line about "nothing better than watching sailors burn" was a great bit of foreshadowing to his chain in season 2.

2. Why is Viserys riding his horse when they arrive at Vaes Dothrak? (sp. most likely) I thought he was forced to walk? (That's really minor, but stuck out to me.)

He should have been riding in a cart...I believe in the books after several days of walking Drogo offers him a place in a cart and he accepts. I don't believe he ever gets back on the horse.

I'm a little disappointed they didn't throw him in the cart, how else will the Cart King get his crown?

[Xenophon]

I thought it was a temporary punishment and assumed after some time passed, they let back on the horse again.

Yeah, they seem to have cut out the whole "King Cart" business. Which makes sense given the need to condense things for TV.

Re. the extras, I agree there have been some bad moments (Drogo's wedding party, first and foremost), but I think they generally have been pretty good. If you watch them closely, sure they look kinda bad, but they don't draw attention to themselves, so most of the time its fine.

I do agree that the tournament was a bit ridiculous. We're supposed to believe that that crowd is "filling every room in the city"? That's testing the limits of my suspension of disbelief. Not sure what they could have done about it, though, short of CGI (expensive) or having the joust in an enclosed courtyard (also problematic). So, I'll give them a pass on that.

[Chislev]

He should have been riding in a cart...I believe in the books after several days of walking Drogo offers him a place in a cart and he accepts. I don't believe he ever gets back on the horse.

I'm a little disappointed they didn't throw him in the cart, how else will the Cart King get his crown?

Pretty sure Dany begs Drogo to let her brother ride again...something about using all the pillow tricks Doreah had taught her ;o)