[Book Spoilers] EP104 Discussion

[Recentiy03]

Correct. He was an upjumped squire, knighted because he was the one who poisoned Jon Arryn on the orders of the Queen (or one of her catspaws). "He had no business riding in that company" is how the Hound phrased it -- and Gregor's lance goes where Gregor bloody wants it to go.

I'm pretty sure Robert is the one who knights Ser Hugh after Jon Aryn's death and Lysa, of course, admits to killing him with the Tears of Lys. That being so, I don't know why Ser Gregor killed him.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

Gregor killed him because he was there to be killed. Gregor is vicious like that.

[unJon]

Just re-watched. Bronn does not rise to Cat's call to arrest Tyrion at the end. You can see his hand raising his cup to drink in the very last scene when everyone has their swords out. Nice touch.

[kurttrukx]

I think the Hound totally got the shaft this episode.

A lot of people are upset that his scene with Sansa was rewritten as Littlefinger dialog.

I don't want to jump to a conclusion, but I'm not really getting my hopes up that they'll show the Mountain Vs. the Hound either.

For one thing, there are no shots in the episode 5 preview of any additional tourney scenes; however, they do show shots of Lannisters Vs. Starks in the streets and the uneasy Cat/Tyrion alliance Vs. the mountain clan.

Episode 4 was already light on action. Why would they push the end of the tourney to next week when episode 5 is already loaded with action? It just doesn't make plotting sense.

So I have a bad feeling that one of my favorite stories in the book might be cut.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

Of course they will show the Gregor/Hound scene, the whole point of having LF tell the story in this episode is so that the audience will understand the subtext of that scene in the next episode.

[Ser Greguh]

I think the Hound totally got the shaft this episode.

A lot of people are upset that his scene with Sansa was rewritten as Littlefinger dialog.

I don't want to jump to a conclusion, but I'm not really getting my hopes up that they'll show the Mountain Vs. the Hound either.

For one thing, there are no shots in the episode 5 preview of any additional tourney scenes; however, they do show shots of Lannisters Vs. Starks in the streets and the uneasy Cat/Tyrion alliance Vs. the mountain clan.

Episode 4 was already light on action. Why would they push the end of the tourney to next week when episode 5 is already loaded with action? It just doesn't make plotting sense.

So I have a bad feeling that one of my favorite stories in the book might be cut.

Various clips and stills from the scene were among the first promotional images released for the show, including what appeared to be the shot where The Mountain is swinging down on Loras with all his might and Sandor steps in. Decapitated horse and all. The scene is in, beyond any shadow of a doubt.

People are getting their panties into way too tight a bunch over the size of this one particular crowd, imo. It was practically a warm-up bout, an utter mismatch between a highly skilled but unflamboyant known knight and a pathetic upjumped squire. Most of the spectators were obviously still tailgating until an actual match happened. Cersei walked out on it completely, and evidently they'd been waiting long enough for Robert to call for the joust to happen already, before he pissed himself. No, thanks to the limitations of TV budgets we're not going to get a full coliseum or anything of the sort, every extra has to have a full costume, etc. etc., but for this particular crowd it pretty much fits with the spirit of the story. It's a multi-day event in the books and this was just basically a boring prelim with no drama or tension whatsoever for a potential audience.

[Lord Godric]

His age didn't bother me at all. In my opinion, he appears to be in his late 30s, perhaps early 40s. That doesn't contradict the fact that he's supposed to be Old Nan's grandson (I don't remember how old he was in the books, though).

To be clear, Hodor is Old Nan's GREAT grandson.

[Ser Greguh]

To be clear, Hodor is Old Nan's GREAT grandson.

He's also a giant. He no doubt looks much older than he actually is.

[Lord Godric]

When Ned is in the Council Room, there is an empty seat right at the center with the crowned stag on it. Is it Stannis's or Robert's? Because Robert should have a seat, shouldn't he? And if it's that one, where is Stannis's? I hope they haven't cut Stannis out completely. That would be awful.

I believed it to be Robert's. While Stannis has been mentioned, it has never been mentioned that he is on the King's council. I think they have cut that bit instead of explaining it. But Stannis will be in season 2.

[Lord Godric]

One thing about the extras... they SUCK. Putting aside the fact that there's too few of them, if you actually wash them, they're just awful. Realize though that being an extra is a demoralizing, menial task that I can't understand why they'd want to do it. I work in film/TV and they just get treated like crap, bossed around, paid low, yelled at for making noise during takes and yet they're absolutely essential to create any feeling of realism. Watch the scene with Jon fighting (apologies, I can't remember which time, but somewhere in this episode). The two guys right behind them are barely going through the motions and are just trying to not make noise with their swords.

Stuff like this never bothers me, but I noticed it at Castle Black as well. The extras in the background were just barely moving their swords. When we have this huge scene with Ser Alister yelling at the new recruits who are working their butts off, in the background we have other people who just seem to be chilling pretending to fight.

[Lord Godric]

Ah... what?

What screen time? She shows up in episode 1 and it is never fully explained what happened. She's briefly mentioned in episode 2. Then nothing.

Unimportant? She's only the entire reason the rebellion started, the reason Robert hates the Targaryans with an irrational level of hate, the reason Cersei hates her husband the King. And that's just the stuff that's out there in the open.

She's also hinted to be the major guilt trip that drives Ned Stark in half his actions.

How can she be anything but hugely important in book 1? True she fades in importance after the first book, but leaving her out is leaving a huge, huge hole in the plot, the motivations, and the character development of our three major players of season 1: Ned, Robert, and Cersei.

Then add in that Lyanna can provide help to Arya's story line as well, since it would provide an older model for her- both an ideal and a warning.

I just don't get why she's being left out. I'm not saying they need to spend a whole episode on her, just little dribbles.

Three lines. Just three lines in episode 3, and it would have improve the Arya-Ned scene.

Ned: wistfully "You remind me of my sister."

Arya: surprised "Aunt Lyanna was beautiful."

Ned: sadly "She was, beautiful and wild, and dead before her time."

That's it. Three lines and now we know Lyanna's name and that she was like Arya, so we like her already, and she came to a tragic end. Making us feel sorry for Lyanna, and worried for Arya.

Then spend just a little time this episode showing Robert is still hung up on her. Yeah, I know we found that out in episode 1, but we could do with a reminder this far in.

Continually bringing up Lyanna would, I think, be forcing her upon the viewers. Enough has been done to lay the mystery of Jon's true parentage before the viewers without having to force a mention of Lyanna every single episode.

Just a question though, if you think there hasn't been enough Lyanna, what about Rhaegar? Has he even been mentioned by name once yet?

He's also a giant. He no doubt looks much older than he actually is.

Oh, I didn't realize being a giant meant you get gray hairs faster than usual.

[kurttrukx]

Various clips and stills from the scene were among the first promotional images released for the show, including what appeared to be the shot where The Mountain is swinging down on Loras with all his might and Sandor steps in. Decapitated horse and all. The scene is in, beyond any shadow of a doubt.

Great news. Well, episode 5 is going to be totally killer with 3 epic fights.

[The Anti-Targ]

Just a question though, if you think there hasn't been enough Lyanna, what about Rhaegar? Has he even been mentioned by name once yet?

Yes he has, in Ep.2 at Bob and Ned's picnic. "What Rhaegar Targaryen did to your sister, the woman I loved" or words to that effect.

What I think it missing from the Jon's parentage mystery is the Asharia Dayne Rumour. If this rumour doesn't come out at some point this season that obviously diminishes the status of the N+A=J theory in the books. Though doesn't eliminate it entirely. Obviously if N+A=J in the books then Jon's parentage is pretty meaningless in the bigger picture, so for the purposes of the series it can remain a forever unanswered mystery, which it could be in the books too. But even if R+L=J poking the N+A=J red herring in there added a debating point to the story which may not be part of the TV subculture.

[smegma]

Rhaegar was also mentioned this episode when Jorah tells Dany that Rhaegar was the last dragon or whatever. I wonder if he got the glow.

[malek]

I enjoyed Tyrion's (and Cat's to Tyrion's) reaction when Frey's man announced that Ser Walder is looking to get married again on his 90'th names-day :bowdown:

[Cyclone49]

Big improvement on last week, I thought. Best scene was Littlefinger pointing out all of the various spies to Ned, really puts into perspective the pit of snakes he's wandered into. And we finally get to see some more Ghost! Not sure what to think about the story of the Hound's scars being given to Littlefinger, but it worked better on screen than I thought it would when I thought read about this change, and as long as the Hound still gives his drunken speech to Sansa about knights in the next episode it doesn't really bother me. Oh, and Hodor's way more older and overweight than I imagined him - I can't exactly see Osha ogling the TV version's naked body.

[Commodore]

for some reason I envisioned the jousting area as circular, almost like a rodeo, with a fence and thousands of people watching

this was certainly underwhelming

[GoTreviews]

2. Why is Viserys riding his horse when they arrive at Vaes Dothrak? (sp. most likely) I thought he was forced to walk? (That's really minor, but stuck out to me.)

Bothered me as well. Makes sense episode wise tho, since Dany's trying to be gentle to him, offering him diner and gifts, maybe the viewer will assume Viserys has been forgiven.

On the extras, I have to say, I'm bothered as well. It starded at the Dothraki's wedding, where the background guys were just looking around, but it really isn't getting any better. It's a good thing Littlefinger is that good: you only see him, the first time he tells Sansa the Hound's story... and that's the good thing because, man, the couple of guys behind him... they're awful. It's almost as if Petyr's story was being told out of time, in a different space, where only he and Sans can move or hear. It was a little bothering at first watch, but at the second time, I found it to be a long, dull moment.

Kinda makes me worry about the big upcoming battles as well.

[KarentheUnicorn]

I at first was miffed that they gave the Hounds story to Littlefinger and I'm hoping that they'll at least give us something good at the end of the tournament to make up for him.

After watching the scene again I'm kind of wondering, maybe the reason is as others have stated, they needed to setup Gregor and Sandor backstory earlier, but I don't know why that couldn't have been done effectively the way it was written in the book. But then again, since the tournament seems to be split over two episodes maybe it just works better this way for TV.

I'm also sort of wondering, is having someone else tell Sansa the story, is it a way to make her more frightened of the Hound. It kind of takes away from the Hound, in the book it was kind of interesting that he willingly told her that story. It's sort of unexpected and it almost seems like he was looking for something in her, sort of something worth fighting for.

But then I think maybe in a way it's more scary to have Littlefinger tell her so she can be more terrified of the Hound, the story might not be as scary coming from the sorce but whispered by someone like Littlefinger it makes it all more scary, and having him do the threat at the end, that her knowing puts her in danger...sort of translates to me that Littlefinger is sewing the seed of fear in her - sort of setting up a dynamic when she is going to be alone with the Hound.

I know we got to see the earlier scene when they first sort of officially met but to me Sansa didn't seem as scared as she was portrayed in the book. In the book she neals down and hugs on lady while the hound sort of makes fun of her. The show version, at least to me she didn't seem as scared but also it came across as more of a humiliation from Joffery to Sandor. Sansa and Sandor seemed to be getting along okay there till Joffery came in and had to open his big mouth.

So I'm crossing my fingers that they're going to give us something in the next episode that will make up for Littlefinger getting to take Sandor's revealing conversation.

[howland_reed]

One thing about the extras... they SUCK. Putting aside the fact that there's too few of them, if you actually wash them, they're just awful. Realize though that being an extra is a demoralizing, menial task that I can't understand why they'd want to do it. I work in film/TV and they just get treated like crap, bossed around, paid low, yelled at for making noise during takes and yet they're absolutely essential to create any feeling of realism. Watch the scene with Jon fighting (apologies, I can't remember which time, but somewhere in this episode). The two guys right behind them are barely going through the motions and are just trying to not make noise with their swords. There've been many examples of this like Dothraki people skinning a critter and stirring cookpots. It drives me nuts. I understand why these people fail at an impossible task, but after the first take with the idiots behind Jon, the director should've moved some people in there that don't look like they're about to start giggling.

I noticed that too when watching the Wall scenes. The extras that are practicing in the background are barely going at it, and look like how 5-year olds would play/spar against each other, rather than an actual training ground.

I only notice these things though on a rewatch, when I'm taking in more of the visuals and surrounding. Still, I'm sure on a subconscious level, the poor direction of the extras and sparsely populated sets is probably the reason that this production still doesn't feel as epic as it could be.