Ser Jorah

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

Jorah's crime is basically he envisioned himself as Dany's consort and King of Westeros.

Getting ideas above your station is, oddly enough, one of the few unforgivable sins in Medieval society.

Seriously - all Jorah had to do was beg for forgiveness and he would have had it.

I don't think that trying for Dany was actually that unreasonable. Dany rejected him for personal reasons, not for reasons of station - I don't think she's "above" marrying (or taking a consort) below her station.

I agree with the second part, though. Jorah's sin was his pride in the end. I don't even think begging would have been neccessary, just a little humility.

I am interested in the idea that Jorah may have actually wanted the power that would come along with becoming Prince Consort - I honestly read it as him just being hopelessly in lustve with Dany, rather than a powergrab but there's no reason it couldn't be both.

[Elrick]

Ser Jorah is one of my favorite characters. I find him to be one of the most complex and interesting people in the whole series. After his exile, what will he do? Will he once more become a mercenary knight? Rejoin Dany? Fight her? Join the Golden Company? Take the black? find his way back home to Bear Island? Or will he meet some other fate? What are your thoughts on his future?

I remember his father whispering to Sam for Jorah to take the black... Of course this may or may not happen but I am wondering if he some how winds up at the wall.

[History of Westeros]

I don't think that trying for Dany was actually that unreasonable. Dany rejected him for personal reasons, not for reasons of station - I don't think she's "above" marrying (or taking a consort) below her station.

I agree with the second part, though. Jorah's sin was his pride in the end. I don't even think begging would have been neccessary, just a little humility.

I am interested in the idea that Jorah may have actually wanted the power that would come along with becoming Prince Consort - I honestly read it as him just being hopelessly in lustve with Dany, rather than a powergrab but there's no reason it couldn't be both.

Disagree. Dany's first husband was an accomplished alpha male husband who provided her access to a huge army. There are elements of station and politics within that marriage, and Dany will not settle for less than that, given her plans to invade Westeros. Jorah is/should be well aware of this, so his designs on marrying her are ludicrous. Station is definitely part of the issue, but as you say, she's also just not attracted to him which makes everything else moot. If he had an army/navy, she might marry him despite not having much attraction.

[C.T. Phipps]

I am interested in the idea that Jorah may have actually wanted the power that would come along with becoming Prince Consort - I honestly read it as him just being hopelessly in lustve with Dany, rather than a powergrab but there's no reason it couldn't be both.

Jorah realized, too late (or perhaps simply once Robert was dead/once the dragons were born), Dany was a chance to pretty much utterly turn the tide of history on his name. He could go from being Jorah, slaver and attained knight, to Jorah the Husband of the Dragon Queen. I don't think he even necessarily cared about the POWER but he was heady on the thought of rewriting his crappy life into something out of a ballad.

He doesn't even need to SUCCEED in conquering Westeros to get himself a place in the history books.

Again, he had a place as a Kingsguard-member if he'd just kept his ambitions sensible. You're right, though, a hot fairy-tale queen was definitely on his mind.

[John (Snow) Doe]

Part of me thinks Jorah's will be the great story of redemption within the overall arc; the other part of me thinks that Dany is still due to be betrayed by love, and that's where Jorah comes in. His spying on her may have fulfilled that part of the prophecy already, but I think each part will happen on a grander scale.

[j52y]

Well, I don't think Jorah is gonna ever get a POV chapter, which means that if he shows up again (which I think he will), it'll be in another character's story. The two closest characters are Tyrion and Quentyn. I would say Tyrion, because he knows Illyrio, but joining up with the Golden Company makes sense too.

[Faint]

I agree with the second part, though. Jorah's sin was his pride in the end. I don't even think begging would have been necessary, just a little humility.

I mostly agree, but having read the banishment scene recently, I have to put in in, Daenerys was so fickle about it. I don't think it was a very good decision not because of the decision itself but because of the manner in which it was made. It's one thing to banish Jorah, which might have been the right move in any case, but the reasoning behind it . . . it just seemed a little silly. Apparently, had Jorah just had better mannerisms and more charm, all would have been forgiven. Hell, had he gone before Selmy, and not been judged against the latter's performance, all would have been forgiven. Given that, I thought the mechanism of Jorah's banishment was ill done.

[mormont]

I mostly agree, but having read the banishment scene recently, I have to put in in, Daenerys was so fickle about it. I don't think it was a very good decision not because of the decision itself but because of the manner in which it was made. It's one thing to banish Jorah, which might have been the right move in any case, but the reasoning behind it . . . it just seemed a little silly. Apparently, had Jorah just had better mannerisms and more charm, all would have been forgiven. Hell, had he gone before Selmy, and not been judged against the latter's performance, all would have been forgiven. Given that, I thought the mechanism of Jorah's banishment was ill done.

Oh, there's somewhat more to it than that. Note that the exile not for the spying. He's atoned for that, as has Barristan. The problem is that Jorah presumed. He publicly stood up to Dany and told her off, even when he was in the wrong himself. He revealed by his reaction that he did not and probably never would accept that she was truly his Queen, in fact as well as in name. If that meant anything to her, he'd have been obedient, accepted her decision, and moved on. But his attitude to her was patronising: he genuinely believes he knows better than her and treats her as if she were still a naive girl. To him, she'll always be that. To keep him around would therefore be dangerous to Dany - he might at any time go behind her back to do what he thinks is in her interests, instead of what she tells him. She can't trust him, so he must go.

Where has he gone? Well, I have a pet theory that he might have gone to some of Drogo's old lieutenants. But this is based on nothing more than a hunch that we haven't seen the last of those guys. More likely, I admit, is the theory mentioned earlier in-thread that's slightly spoilerish so I won't repeat it. But not back to Westeros, I think. Jorah won't go back there without some power.

[Ski the Swift]

I always thought Jorah would head for the wall.

[stevelabny]

I do so love when people suggest that Jorah will never be seen again, as he's the biggest wild card in play and the most important non-POV character to date. (Yes, even more so than Sandor.)

I'm still hoping that at some point he becomes a POV, but I doubt it. I'm expecting that he's going to the Wall, or else we would have seen him in Feast. I believe his sword is there, being held by some bastard.

I suspect Jorah will either give his blessing to Jon or try to fight him. Either way, he will be incredibly useful to SOMEONE when Dany finally shows up and absolutely has to have another scene with her, whee he either lets her dying corpse know that he's the reason why OR throws himself at her feet begging forgiveness.

Jorah is my favorite, and I really have no idea just how broken he is right now.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

I do so love when people suggest that Jorah will never be seen again, as he's the biggest wild card in play and the most important non-POV character to date. (Yes, even more so than Sandor.)

I'm still hoping that at some point he becomes a POV, but I doubt it. I'm expecting that he's going to the Wall, or else we would have seen him in Feast. I believe his sword is there, being held by some bastard.

I suspect Jorah will either give his blessing to Jon or try to fight him. Either way, he will be incredibly useful to SOMEONE when Dany finally shows up and absolutely has to have another scene with her, whee he either lets her dying corpse know that he's the reason why OR throws himself at her feet begging forgiveness.

Jorah is my favorite, and I really have no idea just how broken he is right now.

Great post. I like the theory about The Wall, though I don't know why Longclaw would be his. If it was Jorah's sword/house Mormont's sword by rights, wouldn't Jeor have left it on Bear Island when he took the black? Thinking on it, I wish that Daenerys had been more clear in her punishment - it would make a to more sense to sentence Jorah to The Black rather than just "go away". But I guess GRRM wants to keep us guessing.

Not to nitpick, but though I agree Jorah is important, surely you must admit that Littlefinger is a more important non-PoV than Jorah? He's possibly THE major plot driver, whereas Jorah's actions are basically restricted to Daenerys (though of course to her, his actions were vital).

[Été]

It wouldn't be that practical for Dany to sentence someone to the Wall. With no clear idea of the state of law and order in the North, for all they know Jorah could be executed for his past crimes before ever getting to the Wall. I don't think Dany wanted that.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

Disagree. Dany's first husband was an accomplished alpha male husband who provided her access to a huge army. There are elements of station and politics within that marriage, and Dany will not settle for less than that, given her plans to invade Westeros. Jorah is/should be well aware of this, so his designs on marrying her are ludicrous. Station is definitely part of the issue, but as you say, she's also just not attracted to him which makes everything else moot. If he had an army/navy, she might marry him despite not having much attraction.

I think that Dany would be smart not to settle for less than a great political match in a husband, but I am not sure that she will restrict herself to only smart choices. She does seem to follow her heart / do what she thinks is right at least as often as she does what to an outsider would seem the absolutely most rational action. I also think it's quite likely at least one of her marriages (if she does marry) will be entirely political.

But if Dany had returned Ser Jorah's feelings, do you really think she would have refused him? I suppose the question then would be whether she would take him as a secret lover or marry him...

[Free Northman]

While I don't much care about Jorah one way or another I find it astounding that he gets written off as this terrible, irredeemable person while at the same time we have people justfying the truly unforgiveable actions of Jaime Lannister.

On the 10-point EVIL scale, Jorah is around a 4, and Jaime Lannister is sitting around 9, with only Gregor Clegane, Tywin Lannister and Euron Crow's Eye hitting a perfect 10.

[Restless]

The old Mormont had hopes Jorah will get the black - remember he told (to Sam?), to give him his pardon if he gets in black.

That, and the sword Jon has, I can see Jorah going to wall and dying with Longclaw in his hands, while defending LCoNW

[Free Northman]

The old Mormont had hopes Jorah will get the black - remember he told (to Sam?), to give him his pardon if he gets in black.

That, and the sword Jon has, I can see Jorah going to wall and dying with Longclaw in his hands, while defending LCoNW

I've never felt that Longclaw is an appropriate sword for Jon in any case. Its origin is too mundane, and it comes from too minor a House.

I suspect Jorah will join the Night's Watch, and he will be there when Dany joins the fight against the Others eventually. In the process Jon will give him back his family's sword, and Jon will get one part of Ice, his own family's sword.

[Été]

While I don't much care about Jorah one way or another I find it astounding that he gets written off as this terrible, irredeemable person while at the same time we have people justfying the truly unforgiveable actions of Jaime Lannister.

On the 10-point EVIL scale, Jorah is around a 4, and Jaime Lannister is sitting around 9, with only Gregor Clegane, Tywin Lannister and Euron Crow's Eye hitting a perfect 10.

Ramsay Bolton's scoring pretty well on that scale too.

Jorah is ashamed of selling slaves in Westeros, but it seems like he's become desensitised to it in the societies of the East, where it's quite normal - or at least he applies double standards. In both cases he uses the slave trade as a means to an end, but for me that makes him a guilty man rather than a totally evil one.

[iamthedave]

While I don't much care about Jorah one way or another I find it astounding that he gets written off as this terrible, irredeemable person while at the same time we have people justfying the truly unforgiveable actions of Jaime Lannister.

On the 10-point EVIL scale, Jorah is around a 4, and Jaime Lannister is sitting around 9, with only Gregor Clegane, Tywin Lannister and Euron Crow's Eye hitting a perfect 10.

Not really. In fact it's this kind of overstatement which causes people to love Jaime. He's in no way on the level of Gregor Clegane. The guy's done plenty of good actions. he saved the entirety of King's Landing, he saved Brienne from the bear pit, he tried to hold true to Cat's oath (going behind his father's back in the process). He's done a lot of good. As he noted when he looks at his kingsguard page, he's done some deeds that haven't even been noted.

Jaime isn't evil at all. He's a deeply flawed human being who has very much the same flaws as Mormont, since most of what Jaime's done that's 'evil' he did for love.

[C.T. Phipps]

Jaime isn't evil at all. He's a deeply flawed human being who has very much the same flaws as Mormont, since most of what Jaime's done that's 'evil' he did for love.

I'd argue that Jaime WAS evil by AGOT. His participation in the murder of Robert, treason of Cersei, and the Bran tossing are all signs of a deeply horrible man. Meeting Brienne, however, put a mirror up to Jaime that revealed just how far he'd fallen. The irony that he's only trying NOW to live up to his prior oaths is perverse, in many respects.

It's why everyone reacts so strangely to him in AFFC.

[davezenz]

Any idea where Jorah Mormont has gone after his break with Dany?