Ser Jorah

[Spring Bass]

Probably drunk somewhere in the Free Cities. Or working with one of Dany's enemies in the region around Mereen.

[Kaitscralt]

There is a brand new thread on this just down the page...

[morbiczer]

Jorah will try to regain Dany. He is crazy about her. The time when she was closest to her was in the Red Waste, when she had nothing. So Jorah will try Dob Dany of all her power and followers, so that he again can step up as her saviour.

I guess that he will seek out one of the Dothraki khals who rode under Drogo and will try to bring a khalasar down on Meereen. But then again, Dothraki don't like fighting against Unsullied.

[AtoningUnifex]

I'll say it depends on Sam. Whether he stays in Oldtown, or as some suggest, has to take Marwyn's place heading east to inform Dany of the real threat to Westeros. I think they are destined to meet, else I don't think GRRM includes Jeor's dying wish. So I think Jorah's travel plans revolve around Sams's story line. Of course, it is a wild guess and it is GRRM..

[KyleLitke]

Part of me thinks Jorah's will be the great story of redemption within the overall arc; the other part of me thinks that Dany is still due to be betrayed by love, and that's where Jorah comes in. His spying on her may have fulfilled that part of the prophecy already, but I think each part will happen on a grander scale.

Yeah, I have the same thoughts. I'd like to see him redeemed, and hope they don't go the route of him turning on her and helping her enemies. That said, I'm not expecting a happy ending for Ser Jorah...my suspicion is any redemption story for him would result in his death, but I'd still rather see that than him turning. I like the idea that Jorah has done so much out of love (for Lynesse, for his home, then for Dany) and would hate it if he all of a sudden just joins up with Dany's enemies for no real reason (why, because he felt spurned by her? That goes against the character motivation he's had the entire series).

The "betrayed for love" has always bugged me a bit. Jorah actually fits the betrayed for gold better (not literal gold, but a reward). He doesn't betray her out of love. He loves her, but the betrayal is initially for something entirely different (unless you want to say he betrayed her for love of Bear Island, which is possible, but I guess I assumed the betrayed for love involved either someone who loved Dany betraying her for that love, or Dany loving someone and getting betrayed by them). By the time he really starts expressing his love for her, he's likely stopped spying (he could have lied, but if he was going to lie he would have been better off not saying he sent something from Qarth, so I assumed it was true).

[AtoningUnifex]

There is a brand new thread on this just down the page...

maybe a merger is in order

[Vuron]

As someone said earlier, Jorah is just a very weak man. Most of his actions get attributed to love, but I don't think it's the love of the women, but rather the love of the "idea" of the women or their stations that become his motivation.

He's the type that falls in love at the drop of the hat, but only with those above his station. Once he gets these feelings, he becomes possessive and will do anything to win or keep the women, even if it means going against society, breaking laws, lying, cheating, etc.

When confronted or rejected, he reacts with violence and by trying to bring down those around him.

I dump him into the category of stalker, white trash, abusive husband, etc.

I don't think we've seen the last of him, and I hope he comes back to die and slow and horrible death.

[hackhamster]

Jorah is Illyrio and Varys' creature. At this point he has no where else to go, although I'm not too sure Illyrio will have any use for him at this point. Going to the Wall will result in either Stannis making him a high lord or cutting his head off. Returning to King's Landing or thereabouts just exposes himself as a failed agent.

As for he being on a redemptive story arc, I don't buy it. He's proven he can't be trusted, so going back to Dany and somehow earning it back just isn't going to happen.

[KyleLitke]

Jorah is Illyrio and Varys' creature. At this point he has no where else to go, although I'm not too sure Illyrio will have any use for him at this point. Going to the Wall will result in either Stannis making him a high lord or cutting his head off. Returning to King's Landing or thereabouts just exposes himself as a failed agent.

As for he being on a redemptive story arc, I don't buy it. He's proven he can't be trusted, so going back to Dany and somehow earning it back just isn't going to happen.

How has he proven he can't be trusted? Even Dany thinks she would have forgiven him if he had asked for it, and even after she sent him away she debates calling him back. He screwed up, yes, but except for the letter from Qarth, he was spying on someone he barely knew in exchange for, at the time, his hearts desire. That doesn't add up to "He clearly cannot be trusted in any way" or whatever. It makes a hell of a lot more sense, considering EVERY bad thing Jorah has done has been out of love (for Lynesse, for Bear Island, for Dany), than Jorah randomly joining her enemies or whatever. He could just disappear, yes, or go to the Wall (could be a possibility if he thinks everything else is no longer an option), but I think a redemptive storyarc works as well, although I think it ends with his death.

By the way, speaking of Jorah and the Wall, why wouldn't Ned have sent him to the Wall? The implication from Jorah (and I think from Ned as well) is that he was going to Bear Island to execute Jorah. Considering Jorah's father was on the Wall, the Wall always needs people, etc. etc., why wouldn't Ned have sent him there? That never made sense to me.

[Millardkillmoore]

How has he proven he can't be trusted? Even Dany thinks she would have forgiven him if he had asked for it, and even after she sent him away she debates calling him back. He screwed up, yes, but except for the letter from Qarth, he was spying on someone he barely knew in exchange for, at the time, his hearts desire. That doesn't add up to "He clearly cannot be trusted in any way" or whatever. It makes a hell of a lot more sense, considering EVERY bad thing Jorah has done has been out of love (for Lynesse, for Bear Island, for Dany), than Jorah randomly joining her enemies or whatever. He could just disappear, yes, or go to the Wall (could be a possibility if he thinks everything else is no longer an option), but I think a redemptive storyarc works as well, although I think it ends with his death.

By the way, speaking of Jorah and the Wall, why wouldn't Ned have sent him to the Wall? The implication from Jorah (and I think from Ned as well) is that he was going to Bear Island to execute Jorah. Considering Jorah's father was on the Wall, the Wall always needs people, etc. etc., why wouldn't Ned have sent him there? That never made sense to me.

Maybe he was offered the chance to take the black, but refused. He may not have wanted to be without Lynesse. Perhaps an life as an exile with her was more appealing than any life without her.

[hackhamster]

How has he proven he can't be trusted? Even Dany thinks she would have forgiven him if he had asked for it, and even after she sent him away she debates calling him back. He screwed up, yes, but except for the letter from Qarth, he was spying on someone he barely knew in exchange for, at the time, his hearts desire. That doesn't add up to "He clearly cannot be trusted in any way" or whatever. It makes a hell of a lot more sense, considering EVERY bad thing Jorah has done has been out of love (for Lynesse, for Bear Island, for Dany), than Jorah randomly joining her enemies or whatever. He could just disappear, yes, or go to the Wall (could be a possibility if he thinks everything else is no longer an option), but I think a redemptive storyarc works as well, although I think it ends with his death.

He never came out and admitted what he had been a spy, a spy playing a double game at that (working for Robert as well as working for Illyrio, to which he never admitted): IIRC he only fessed up AFTER Selmy outed him. He could have come clean prior to that point, but he didn't. He was also more than happy to let his father rot up on the Wall while he gallivanted around the Free Cities. He was disloyal to his leige lord (Ned), he was disloyal to his father and family. He was even disloyal to Robert's command to kill Dany and the babe, even though it was "for love" (more like it was because Illyrio countermanded it).

By the way, speaking of Jorah and the Wall, why wouldn't Ned have sent him to the Wall? The implication from Jorah (and I think from Ned as well) is that he was going to Bear Island to execute Jorah. Considering Jorah's father was on the Wall, the Wall always needs people, etc. etc., why wouldn't Ned have sent him there? That never made sense to me.

Well, perhaps this came after other events that showed his lack of judgement, so Ned couldn't be sure that an offer of the Wall would actually result in Jorah ending up there. Thus, off with the head. And the elder Mormont went to the Wall in Jorah's place, he wasn't already there.

[iamthedave]

I've always suspected that Jorah will turn out to have fallen in with Dany's enemies in the city, and be one of the big reveals in ADWD, and another trauma for Dany.

It seems the obvious position for him. He's strong, clever, and he knows her well. Sounds like the making of a good enemy.

[kkae]

Well, perhaps this came after other events that showed his lack of judgement, so Ned couldn't be sure that an offer of the Wall would actually result in Jorah ending up there. Thus, off with the head. And the elder Mormont went to the Wall in Jorah's place, he wasn't already there.

IIRC The elder Mormont went to the Wall so his son (that is Jorah) could become the lord of Bear Island. After his crimes Jorah was facing execution or taking the black but instead he chose to leave Westeros. Actually, I think that he fled with her wife but that didn't turn out well in the end.

But I can't say if he returns. I can't see him becoming Dany's enemy and I think that he has served his purpose in the narrative. Jorah being one of the prophesied betrayals seems to me too obvious.

[mormont]

How has he proven he can't be trusted?

See my post above. Jorah's reaction after redeeming himself is a clear signal that Dany cannot trust him in future.

[hackhamster]

See my post above. Jorah's reaction after redeeming himself is a clear signal that Dany cannot trust him in future.

I could see him returning to Illyrio, bragging about the influence he had over her. I can also see the meeting between him and Tyrion. I'm sure the Golden Company will treat him with disdain.

[KyleLitke]

Maybe he was offered the chance to take the black, but refused. He may not have wanted to be without Lynesse. Perhaps an life as an exile with her was more appealing than any life without her.

Could be, but I thought the implication was Jorah got word Ned was coming to execute him and took off. It's possible there was more that wasn't told, but both seem to think Ned was going to go execute him for his crimes as opposed to asking him to take the black.

I've always suspected that Jorah will turn out to have fallen in with Dany's enemies in the city, and be one of the big reveals in ADWD, and another trauma for Dany.

It seems the obvious position for him. He's strong, clever, and he knows her well. Sounds like the making of a good enemy.

I'd hate that. It doesn't seem to fit anything we've seen from Jorah's character.

He never came out and admitted what he had been a spy, a spy playing a double game at that (working for Robert as well as working for Illyrio, to which he never admitted): IIRC he only fessed up AFTER Selmy outed him. He could have come clean prior to that point, but he didn't. He was also more than happy to let his father rot up on the Wall while he gallivanted around the Free Cities. He was disloyal to his leige lord (Ned), he was disloyal to his father and family. He was even disloyal to Robert's command to kill Dany and the babe, even though it was "for love" (more like it was because Illyrio countermanded it).

Okay, first off, correct that he didn't fess up. Of course he didn't. I said he was in love, not that he was extremely honorable at great cost to himself. Fessing up to being a spy probably would have gotten him kicked out, or at least that was a big risk. He didn't really have any reason to think it would come out some other way.

She likely did know about Illyrio. He tells her he got a letter from Illyrio warning about an assassination attempt. He also did say he was working for Varys, after he was caught, yes, but he said it. We have no real reason to think he lied at that point, since he admitted to sending a message from Qarth. If he was lying he would have told her he stopped earlier...even Barristan couldn't say differently, since he was long gone by then, and anyway, the only important piece of information that came from Jorah was the fact that she was pregnant (even if he told Varys about the dragons from Qarth, which was quite possible, the dragons weren't a secret, she was showing them off to anyone who wanted to see them by that point).

I have absolutely no clue what you're talking about in regards to his father. Huh? What would his father or the Wall have anything to do with anything? There's no indication Jorah was ever even given the opportunity to take the black, both Jorah and Ned imply Ned was coming to execute him, not offer him a chance to go to the Wall. As for his father, are you suggesting he should have stormed the Wall and rescued his father? I'm not trying to be a jerk, I have NO clue what you're getting at.

He was disloyal to them, yes. From his story (which he could have lied about, of course, but it's ALL we have to go on), it was out of love for Lynesse. I'm not saying that makes what he did right, I am saying it's a justification beyond "He's just some total douchebag who is totally bad to everyone".

He was not disloyal to Robert. It's very likely he was never given that message. Varys quite clearly is not trying to bring down Dany. That's backed up from plenty of different things in the books. VARYS is the one in contact with Jorah (either by himself or through Illyrio), Robert has absolutely no contact with him. Jorah even says to Dany that Varys wanted her watched but not harmed. Beyond ALL of that, even Robert never ordered Jorah to kill her (not even through Varys). In fact, he SUGGESTS it (or Littlefinger does, maybe...somebody does), and Varys immediately shoots it down saying Jorah won't do it as it'd get him killed, and they move on to other ideas. So you're definitely off base on saying he was disloyal for not killing Dany. That order was never given, not even if we assumed Varys wanted Dany dead too (which he clearly doesn't).

I'd also point out that in all this Jorah hate (some of it earned), I think it's completely forgotten that he left Longclaw. If he's the most dishonorable person in the history of the world, as people are making him out to be, why did he leave it? A Valyrian blade would have served him well as a sellsword, or he could have sold it for a huge price (how many times did we hear how desperate Tywin Lannister was to get a Valyrian sword?). That seems to just be ignored. It doesn't make up for everything else and clearly he did other dishonorable things, nobody is making him out to be a paragon. But he clearly wasn't ENTIRELY lost to honor. He was just in love and did stupid things for it (referring to Lynesse here). He isn't the first man and he won't be the last man to do stupid, even bad things out of love, even if all things being equal they might not be such a bad guy.

[Nnorb]

Jorah's a great character. He's a smart, strong, effective man who just cannot catch a break, and yet despite the cynicism this engenders, he remains a hopeless romantic. And yet ultimately he's incredibly selfish. Easily the best thing to come out of the otherwise tepid Dany arc.

It'll be a shame if he goes all, "If I cant have her, no-one can!" Like in some shitty soap opera, so Dany can look like a hero. He certainly didn't do so with Lynesse.

[KyleLitke]

Jorah's a great character. He's a smart, strong, effective man who just cannot catch a break, and yet despite the cynicism this engenders, he remains a hopeless romantic. And yet ultimately he's incredibly selfish. Easily the best thing to come out of the otherwise tepid Dany arc.

It'll be a shame if he goes all, "If I cant have her, no-one can!" Like in some shitty soap opera, so Dany can look like a hero. He certainly didn't do so with Lynesse.

Agreed entirely. I think he's a complicated character who is neither good nor evil (like most characters in the book). If he joins up with her enemies, unless there's a REALLY good reason (i.e., he's spying on them to help her, or "her enemies" refers to someone who is in position to promise him Bear Island again), then he's just a cartoon villain. He's a selfish romantic, but like you say, the whole "If I can't have her, no one can!", leading to him joining her enemies trying to kill her, is a cartoon/soap opera storyline. Nobody in reality does that except the people who are batshit insane, and there's no indication Jorah is anything of the sort. It doesn't mean he needs to turn out to be a hero in the story, maybe GRRM goes a different route or maybe he really is gone, but boy, I'd be really disappointed if he does something cartoonish like joining her enemies to plot her death while he pulls on his Fu Manchu mustache and cackles evily.

For those who think he will, read the chapter where he tells Dany about Lynesse and she asks him if he hates her. Lynesse who clearly "wronged" him way more than Dany ever did. Does that sound like the kind of guy who's going to now plot Dany's death?

[Millardkillmoore]

Agreed entirely. I think he's a complicated character who is neither good nor evil (like most characters in the book). If he joins up with her enemies, unless there's a REALLY good reason (i.e., he's spying on them to help her, or "her enemies" refers to someone who is in position to promise him Bear Island again), then he's just a cartoon villain. He's a selfish romantic, but like you say, the whole "If I can't have her, no one can!", leading to him joining her enemies trying to kill her, is a cartoon/soap opera storyline. Nobody in reality does that except the people who are batshit insane, and there's no indication Jorah is anything of the sort. It doesn't mean he needs to turn out to be a hero in the story, maybe GRRM goes a different route or maybe he really is gone, but boy, I'd be really disappointed if he does something cartoonish like joining her enemies to plot her death while he pulls on his Fu Manchu mustache and cackles evily.

For those who think he will, read the chapter where he tells Dany about Lynesse and she asks him if he hates her. Lynesse who clearly "wronged" him way more than Dany ever did. Does that sound like the kind of guy who's going to now plot Dany's death?

Couldn't agree more. If he did do this, it would absolutely ruin his character.

[Nnorb]

"Do you hate her?"

"Almost as much as I love her."

FLAWLESS [characterisation] VICTORY!