[BOOK SPOILERS] Sansa: the character most ill-served by the adaptation (so far)

[L’Age d’or]

I'll admit that I am a book Sansa hater. She may be one of my most hated characters off all time, in any book. I'll, begrudgingly, admit that I don't hate HBO Sansa nearly as much. I still find her a little too naive for my tastes. After a few re-reads, I came to blame Sansa's fantasy life and shortcomings on Septa Mordane. That woman should have been flayed alive for not teaching Sansa the truth about the world.

I'm concerned that none of the Cercei/Sansa interaction has been explained in the series and that Sansa running to Cercei will totally confuse non-book readers. The last interaction we saw between the 2 was Cercei ordering the death of Lady. Why should we believe that Sansa would betray Ned to her, now?

I hate ASOIAF Sansa with a passion, but HBO Sansa is just too irrelevant to the show to be hated anyway. Sansa's scenes in the show are a bunch of shots featuring an average looking miserable passive girl whom you would not even want to give a shit about.

[StormbornBee]

One disappointment is that the revelation of the Hound's story came from Littlefinger on TV and not from the Hound, because I always felt his "...and if you tell anyone I'll kill you..." was a great moment in keeping her off balance.

I completely agree... in the books Sansa and the Hound have this odd relationship where he scares the crap out of her yet in his own way seems to care, i.e. saves her from the mob and goes to see her before he runs away from Kings Landing. Changing the giver of the Hound's story to Littlefinger sort of belittles the Sansa/Hound book relationship. I also don't think the show has done that great of a job portraying just how menacing and bitter the Hound is...... I hope they make him more menacing soon. (Even though by the time he "kidnaps" Arya I don't think he's such a bad guy... he's just incredibly unlucky.......... but this is a Sansa thread ;))

[Prince of Dinas Emrys]

I hate ASOIAF Sansa with a passion, but HBO Sansa is just too irrelevant to the show to be hated anyway. Sansa's scenes in the show are a bunch of shots featuring an average looking miserable passive girl whom you would not even want to give a shit about.

Just goes to show ya, beauty is in the eye of the beholder and all that. I think TV-Sansa is beautiful and unique. If I were a teenager, I'd be in love with her! :blushing:

I think TV-Sansa's mopiness is fully comprehensible and realistic. Her girlish dreams are dying all around her; Joffrey's a murderous prick and her beloved wolf is dead largely because of him... and she's supposed to marry him! It would be unbelievable if she were shown to be giddy and enamored with King's Landing and the pageantry of the tourney. It just wouldn't feel right in the context of the story.

I'm not a big fan of book-Sansa; in the first three books I tend to find her annoyingly dumb, though in AFFC she does develop into a pretty smart little cookie. As long as her character follows that arc -- clueless to cagey -- I'll be satisfied.

[Prince of Dinas Emrys]

I completely agree... in the books Sansa and the Hound have this odd relationship where he scares the crap out of her yet in his own way seems to care, i.e. saves her from the mob and goes to see her before he runs away from Kings Landing. Changing the giver of the Hound's story to Littlefinger sort of belittles the Sansa/Hound book relationship. I also don't think the show has done that great of a job portraying just how menacing and bitter the Hound is...... I hope they make him more menacing soon. (Even though by the time he "kidnaps" Arya I don't think he's such a bad guy... he's just incredibly unlucky.......... but this is a Sansa thread ;))

But that scene can still happen. Sandor can still tell Sansa his backstory and they can still share that moment together. The show has a way of reiterating information that's important.

Having Littelefinger tell it first, so that we understand the stakes when the Hound gores to defend Loras from Gregor, is just good TV storytelling. Sandor repeating it later in confidence will have even more resonance because we, the audience, will know that it's an important secret he's sharing with her.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

But that scene can still happen. Sandor can still tell Sansa his backstory and they can still share that moment together. The show has a way of reiterating information that's important.

Having Littelefinger tell it first, so that we understand the stakes when the Hound gores to defend Loras from Gregor, is just good TV storytelling. Sandor repeating it later in confidence will have even more resonance because we, the audience, will know that it's an important secret he's sharing with her.

Plus, when The Hound does talk to her, now Sansa will be SCARED SHITLESS because of what LF said "very few people know that story"... "I won't tell anyone"... "wise girl, if the Hound knew you'd told"...

In the book Sansa was scared in that scene, too, but it was unclear why other than "The Hound is big and has scars!" Here (at least to new viewers) it'll be like "Ahhhhhhh run from the scary man, Sansa, ruuuun!"

I was so happy when TV Sansa actually smiled again this episode! Yay Knight of Flowers! Too bad he was really giving it to Sansa because she happened to be the girl sitting closest to Renly. Oh well!

[Taksi]

I was so happy when TV Sansa actually smiled again this episode! Yay Knight of Flowers! Too bad he was really giving it to Sansa because she happened to be the girl sitting closest to Renly. Oh well!

Yes, it was nice to see a smile, brief and tentative as it was. And having her standing up in the stands and clapping after the Hound/Mountain fight was also a nice touch.

But then the tournament was over, and just like that Sansa was done for the episode. At this point, the writers don't seem to know what to do with her, so they keep shunting her off to the sidelines. If her "betrayal" is going to work at all, she needs to have some much more hefty scenes in the next episode.

[Salome the Persian Witch]

I must admit, I feel that Sansa's pure mopiness & teenage angstiness isn't doing the story as much justice. Yes, she can have aspects of that, but what is important (to me) is the fact that she is in love with the pageantry, the palace, the queen. The only thing we've seen is the queen kill her wolf, and sansa being upset with it. Maybe the writers are going to take out the betrayal altogether, because I would find it difficult to see why Sansa would even look twice at the Queen.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

But then the tournament was over, and just like that Sansa was done for the episode. At this point, the writers don't seem to know what to do with her, so they keep shunting her off to the sidelines. If her "betrayal" is going to work at all, she needs to have some much more hefty scenes in the next episode.

I dunno about "shunting to the sidelines" - it seems like she's had comperable screen time to Arya, which is similar to the book.

I do wonder how they'll make her talking to Cersei believable. Perhaps they'll show Cersei pulling Sansa aside and charming her prior to her fight with Arya/Ned.

"I want you to know, darling, that if you ever need any help... don't hesistate to come to me..." Cersei (esp. TV Cersei) can be quite charming when she wants to be. And Cersei could even take the time to discuss Lady's death with Sansa, which Ned has apparently never bothered to do. Perhaps even apologize, say she was mad with fear for Joffery... etc. Anyway there are things they could still do to make it work. We'll see.

[L’Age d’or]

Just goes to show ya, beauty is in the eye of the beholder and all that. I think TV-Sansa is beautiful and unique. If I were a teenager, I'd be in love with her! :blushing:

I think TV-Sansa's mopiness is fully comprehensible and realistic. Her girlish dreams are dying all around her; Joffrey's a murderous prick and her beloved wolf is dead largely because of him... and she's supposed to marry him! It would be unbelievable if she were shown to be giddy and enamored with King's Landing and the pageantry of the tourney. It just wouldn't feel right in the context of the story.

I'm not a big fan of book-Sansa; in the first three books I tend to find her annoyingly dumb, though in AFFC she does develop into a pretty smart little cookie. As long as her character follows that arc -- clueless to cagey -- I'll be satisfied.

You are bringing in book-Sansa's situation to justify TV-Sansa's mopiness? The TV-Sansa, other than losing her Wolf at Queen's command, has not seen any other type of mistreatment anyway. So IMO its not justified at all, but as I mentioned earlier for me it works, I dont really want to have to hate on her on the TV as well.

[Valmy]

My problem with this reinterpretation is that it's going to make a lot less sense when Sansa eventually betrays the Starks. It made sense originally, she was just an idiot, her father had raised her to be pretty but to never really think or question what's going on; but in the show she's a lot more clever, I just don't see Show Sansa disobeying her father and running off to Cersei.

I am sorta looking forward to at least get some sort of explanation for the "betrayal" because when I read it it only looked like she ran off to say goodbye to Cersei and Joff since she was leaving and Ned was sold out by Littlefinger.

But later on Cersei keeps claiming Sansa told her Neds plan...but Sansa knew nothing about Neds plan but the fact she was being sent away. She did not even know about Joffrey not being Robert's son. I thought Cersei was lying about it but she thinks this again during her own POV chapters in AFFC. Surely it was LF since he actually knew Ned's plan and had the means and motive to undermine it. How could somebody who did not know the plan reveal the plan? :unsure:

So I naturally was angry at LF and presumed he was the betrayer. LF even proudly announces just that to Neds face. So I was rather blown away that people were blaming Sansa for selling out the Starks when it was clearly LF. It made me think I had misread it or the rest of the world had another secret version of AGOT I cannot seem to find. All I thought she did was put herself recklessly in danger...or not if we believe Cersei.

So it will be interesting to see the show's interpretation of this event that has always confused me.

[L’Age d’or]

I am sorta looking forward to at least get some sort of explanation for the "betrayal" because when I read it it only looked like she ran off to say goodbye to Cersei and Joff since she was leaving and Ned was sold out by Littlefinger.

But later on Cersei keeps claiming Sansa told her Neds plan...but Sansa knew nothing about Neds plan but the fact she was being sent away. She did not even know about Joffrey not being Robert's son. I thught Cersei was lying about it but she thinks this again during her own POV chapters in AFFC.

So I naturally was angry at LF and presumed he was the betrayer. LF even proudly announces just that to Neds face. So I was rather blown away that people were blaming Sansa for selling out the Starks when it was clearly LF. All I thought she did was put herself recklessly in danger...or not if we believe Cersei.

So it will be interesting to see the show's interpretation of this event that has always confused me.

LF is a sneaky bastard, we all knew in the game of thrones you win or you die so he chose survival and revenge on Starks for taking his love from him. On the other hand Sansa betrayed her own family cause she did not want to leave her beloved Prince and Queen and all the court life.

[herkles]

I like the sansa character, both in book and tv form though I have to agree with the OP. Regardless of aging her up a bit, they should show her love for courtly life and the stories. My biggest concern is the joffery/sansa relationship, right now you have not really seen how insanely inlove she is with him, and there is hints that she might be affraid he doesn't like her. Him not liking her is not really important in the relationship as we learn latter on, but we should see her in love with him. Though i think there is an scene with sansa/joffery in the next episode that might show her in love with her prince, not sure though.

[Lannister Fan]

I also did not feel Sansa's story was given enough justice either...but let's face she is not the most popular character nor very likeable at the beginning anyways and she will become more interesting as things develop.

[Valmy]

I also did not feel Sansa's story was given enough justice either...but let's face she is not the most popular character nor very likeable at the beginning anyways and she will become more interesting as things develop.

Yeah generally most people are going dislike her (or at least not respect her) until at least ACOK.

[LadyT]

I am sorta looking forward to at least get some sort of explanation for the "betrayal" because when I read it it only looked like she ran off to say goodbye to Cersei and Joff since she was leaving and Ned was sold out by Littlefinger.

But later on Cersei keeps claiming Sansa told her Neds plan...but Sansa knew nothing about Neds plan but the fact she was being sent away. She did not even know about Joffrey not being Robert's son. I thought Cersei was lying about it but she thinks this again during her own POV chapters in AFFC. Surely it was LF since he actually knew Ned's plan and had the means and motive to undermine it. How could somebody who did not know the plan reveal the plan? :unsure:

So I naturally was angry at LF and presumed he was the betrayer. LF even proudly announces just that to Neds face. So I was rather blown away that people were blaming Sansa for selling out the Starks when it was clearly LF. It made me think I had misread it or the rest of the world had another secret version of AGOT I cannot seem to find. All I thought she did was put herself recklessly in danger...or not if we believe Cersei.

So it will be interesting to see the show's interpretation of this event that has always confused me.

I'm with you on this...completely.

I also disagree with marginalizing her. She is a POV character and none of us know where Martin is taking her. ( I have always been intrigued by the significance of her losing her wolf.). But I think it a fair bet that she needs to be around as much as Arya.

Ned is responsible for what happened to him. If the Lannisters outfoxed him, don't blame his poor dreamy daughter!

[Prince of Dinas Emrys]

You are bringing in book-Sansa's situation to justify TV-Sansa's mopiness? The TV-Sansa, other than losing her Wolf at Queen's command, has not seen any other type of mistreatment anyway. So IMO its not justified at all, but as I mentioned earlier for me it works, I dont really want to have to hate on her on the TV as well.

I certainly am not "bringing in book-Sansa's situation to justify TV-Sansa's mopiness". The same tragedies happen to both versions of the character. Her wolf dies, Joffrey her intended is a homicidal jerk. She doesn't play with dolls anymore; she's growing up and watching reality unfold around her. Showing her giddy with adoration of being in King's Landing under these conditions would not make sense to the TV audience.

[Isabella Stark]

One of the upcoming episode descriptions says something like, "Joffrey makes up with Sansa."

I forget Cersei's exact line in that scene where she's treating Joff's injury, but it was something like "give Sansa and occassional kindness, it'll pay off."

I think he's going to do exactly that, sending Sansa over the moon in love, and then the payoff will be Sansa informing him or Cersei that her father's taking her back to Winterfell.

---

IMO, Cersei saying that Sansa told her Ned's plan, Cersei meant Ned's plan to leave town.

-

[Lord Godric]

I must admit, I feel that Sansa's pure mopiness & teenage angstiness isn't doing the story as much justice. Yes, she can have aspects of that, but what is important (to me) is the fact that she is in love with the pageantry, the palace, the queen. The only thing we've seen is the queen kill her wolf, and sansa being upset with it. Maybe the writers are going to take out the betrayal altogether, because I would find it difficult to see why Sansa would even look twice at the Queen.

Agreed, at this point in the book Sansa should be swooning over the Queen, Joffrey, and King's Landing in general. Instead all we get is teenage angst. Sure, she is worried that Joff hates her, but we haven't seen the two of them together since Lady was beheaded. It would be absolutely unbelievable to have Sansa run to Cersei because Ned wanted to her and her sister away from King's Landing. There are only two ways to remedy this, I think. (1) To have a scene in the next episode (or just before Robert dies) where Cersei forces Joff to make amends with Sansa. And then we see Cersei playing her usual game with Sansa. Or (2) just cut the betrayal altogether. I'm imagining they will do the latter, which is really a disservice to Sansa's story.

As for TV-Sansa, I have to admit I am no fan. I don't like book-Sansa either, but I don't think that effects my opinion that much, at least not yet. It has more to do with Sophie Turner, I just do not like how she brings Sansa to life. I do not buy her emotions (for instance every time she yells "AR-E-YUH!" just seems forced, as did her glee at the tourney), and I do not feel invested in her character like I do with all the other PoV characters. It hasn't been that big of a deal yet, because Sansa has had a very limited role in what is actually happening, but if things continue on this trend I will be greatly let down by Sansa's evolution.

[Taksi]

I am sorta looking forward to at least get some sort of explanation for the "betrayal" because when I read it it only looked like she ran off to say goodbye to Cersei and Joff since she was leaving and Ned was sold out by Littlefinger.

But later on Cersei keeps claiming Sansa told her Neds plan...but Sansa knew nothing about Neds plan but the fact she was being sent away. She did not even know about Joffrey not being Robert's son. I thought Cersei was lying about it but she thinks this again during her own POV chapters in AFFC. Surely it was LF since he actually knew Ned's plan and had the means and motive to undermine it. How could somebody who did not know the plan reveal the plan? :unsure:

So I naturally was angry at LF and presumed he was the betrayer. LF even proudly announces just that to Neds face. So I was rather blown away that people were blaming Sansa for selling out the Starks when it was clearly LF. It made me think I had misread it or the rest of the world had another secret version of AGOT I cannot seem to find. All I thought she did was put herself recklessly in danger...or not if we believe Cersei.

So it will be interesting to see the show's interpretation of this event that has always confused me.

The first time I read the book, it seemed obvious to me that Sansa was directly responsible for upending all of Ned's best laid plans. She "betrayed" her family by putting her own selfish desires first and running to Cersei behind her father's back. On that initial read, it felt like Sansa's actions ultimately resulted in her father's death, just like her actions back on the King's Road got Lady killed.

But on a closer examination, of course you're right. Sansa knows very little about Ned's plan, only that he is trying to whisk the girls away from King's Landing in secret. This information doesn't help Cersei, who we later realize is already several steps ahead of Ned (with Littlefinger's help). All it really does is give Cersei a hostage (Sansa) in case the confrontation with Ned goes against her (which it doesn't).

I put "betrayal" in scare quotes, because Sansa didn't really understand what she was getting into. She didn't set out to betray her family, and even as an inadvertent betrayal, it doesn't really amount to much. But in the aftermath following the slaughter of the Stark guards and Ned's death, it must feel like a betrayal to Sansa herself. The shock and guilt of it is what shakes her out of her childish dreams, and sets her on her path for the rest of the series.

[Lord Godric]

But on a closer examination, of course you're right. Sansa knows very little about Ned's plan, only that he is trying to whisk the girls away from King's Landing in secret. This information doesn't help Cersei, who we later realize is already several steps ahead of Ned (with Littlefinger's help). All it really does is give Cersei a hostage (Sansa) in case the confrontation with Ned goes against her (which it doesn't).

This isn't the proper thread for this, but Cersei gives Sansa the credit regarding the capture of Ned. From Clash:

"So this Lord Slynt, he was part of it, was he? Tell me, whose fine notion was it to grand him Harrenhal and name him to the council?"

"Littlefinger made the arrangemenets. We needed Slynt's gold cloaks. Eddard Stark was plotting with Renly and he'd written to Lord Stannis, offering him the throne. We might have lost all. Even so, it was a close thing. If Sansa hadn't come to me and told me all her father's plans.."

The information certainly does help Cersei in that it, at least, notified Cersei as to when Ned planned to leave, and allowed her to execute her plans against him.