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The appealing nature of all Arya chapters


Free Northman

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I admit to feeling a twinge of pity for all readers that are heavily invested in Arya's character and want to see her come to a good ending. I've always felt she was doomed from the start. Then again, I tend to invest heavily in foreshadowing.

This passage, in particular, made my eyebrows flinch up a bit when I was re-reading AGoT:

"You had best run back to your room, little sister. Septa Mordan will surely be lurking. The longer you hide, the stronger the penance. You'll be sewing all through winter. When the spring thaw comes, they will find your body with a needle still locked tight between your frozen fingers."

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I admit to feeling a twinge of pity for all readers that are heavily invested in Arya's character and want to see her come to a good ending. I've always felt she was doomed from the start. Then again, I tend to invest heavily in foreshadowing.

This passage, in particular, made my eyebrows flinch up a bit when I was re-reading AGoT:

"You had best run back to your room, little sister. Septa Mordan will surely be lurking. The longer you hide, the stronger the penance. You'll be sewing all through winter. When the spring thaw comes, they will find your body with a needle still locked tight between your frozen fingers."

I don't see any problem with this. Even a death fighting the Others(frozen fingers) is a good ending for some.

And she will fight(use Needle) all through winter, so she'll die at the end of TWOW or even in the last book. Maybe she'll die protecting something/someone important to her. Or just completing her list. Or just killing people left and right.

But her story is far from over.

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I don't see any problem with this. Even a death fighting the Others(frozen fingers) is a good ending for some.

And she will fight(use Needle) all through winter, so she'll die at the end of TWOW or even in the last book. Maybe she'll die protecting something/someone important to her. Or just completing her list. Or just killing people left and right.

But her story is far from over.

I agree with your general premise but I think many might find such an end depressing all the same. You know, it occurs to me, Arya might be the 'bitter' in the bittersweet ending the writer was talking about.

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I admit to feeling a twinge of pity for all readers that are heavily invested in Arya's character and want to see her come to a good ending. I've always felt she was doomed from the start. Then again, I tend to invest heavily in foreshadowing.

This passage, in particular, made my eyebrows flinch up a bit when I was re-reading AGoT:

"You had best run back to your room, little sister. Septa Mordan will surely be lurking. The longer you hide, the stronger the penance. You'll be sewing all through winter. When the spring thaw comes, they will find your body with a needle still locked tight between your frozen fingers."

I am also the type to get very invested in foreshadowing and I could not agree more. I think that besides that passage there are lots of signs that point in that particular direction anyway. Arya has no plans for her future that extend beyond vengeance. And she's always being compared to Lyanna who, as well all know, died young. I predict that Arya will die with her sword in her hand in either the penultimate or final novel of the series. I expect a number of major characters will bite the dust by the time it's all over actually.

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This post has been delayed so much, the discussion has probably moved on past it.

Sansa III: Ned tells the girls they are leaving KL, Ned figures out the whole twincest thing.

Eddard XII: Ned spills his guts to Cersei in the godswood.

Eddard XIII: Robert returns from the hunt, dying.

Eddard XIV: Robert dies, Cersei has Ned arrested.

Arya IV: Lannister men come to apprehend Arya and Syrio facilitates her escape.

Sansa IV: "Sansa has been held in her room for three days. On the first day, she had gone to the queen and told her of Eddard's plan to send her away so that she might get her or the king to stop it. Cersei then had her escorted back to a secure room in Maegor's Holdfast, where she heard the fighting begin."

So the timeline is: (Days titled for reference)

Monday

1) Ned tells the girls they are leaving KL, Sansa freaks out. Ned sends the girls to their rooms.

2) Ned is all, "OH, they're JAIME'S kids!"

3) Ned meets Cersei in the godswood.

Tuesday

1) (Early morning) Robert returns, dying, gives Ned his will.

Wednesday, aka "The first day"

1) Robert has died.

2) Cersei apprehends Sansa. Arya escapes.

3) Sansa tells Cersei about Ned's plan to send them away.

4) Cersei has Ned arrested/the fighting starts.

Well, that's closer than I was, but not quite right. The few page references are to AGOT Bantam PB.

A first day:

Ned tells the girls they're leaving; but at that point Ned didn't have a ship lined up (p. 479). This could conceivably be Monday, but Eddard XII opens in the morning with Ned already having found a ship and sailing date, as well as thinking that he had dreamed of Rhaegar's kids murdered during the coup - reasonably a dream brought on by his realization of what Robert will do to Cersei's kids. So this "first" day probably precedes Monday by at least one day.

Monday (Eddard XII, p 480):

Ned thinks how Sansa solved the twincest thing for him; later, as LF heads to lunch w/Lady Tanda, he thinks time is perilously short, and that the Wind Witch will leave "three days hence". He speaks to Cersei in the godswood at sunset.

Tuesday:

Robert gets gored, probably early or midday. They report that it took two days to get him back to KL (Eddard XIII) when he arrived late Wednesday night. Cersei could only with great difficulty have arranged the strong wine for boar hunting after talking to Ned, so that was probably arranged earlier.

Wednesday night:

Eddard is waked by Robert's return; he takes the words down, Renly offers to capture Joffrey immediately and Ned refuses, he also talks to LF saying he must have the gold cloaks (I mistakenly thought the gold cloaks were LF's idea). Then he goes to bed, though it's probably already Thursday AM.

Thursday:

Beginning of Eddard XIV (p 523), Ned is awaken at dawn but (foolishly) unconcerned by the Lannister sword practice in the yard. The Wind Witch is to leave that night, so this is three days hence from Monday. At breakfast Ned tells Arya she can have a last lesson if she's ready to go at midday, and tells Sansa that she can't go see Joffrey (Septa Mordane tells her not to question her lord father's decisions) - so Sansa promptly runs to Cersei, whereupon Cersei captures her and sends Trant after Arya (Sansa must have told Cersei where Arya would be, too). The fighting began "a few hours" later (p 548 bottom, 2/3 into Sansa IV).

Pycelle arrives at the Tower of the Hand to say that Robert is dead, so Ned orders the small council to the (relatively secure) Tower of the Hand to confirm him as regent. Yet when Joffrey sends his steward to demand the small council go to the throne room, Ned goes - with only about half his guard, relying on the gold cloaks.

The fighting must have started when Ned tried to take Joffrey and the gold cloaks supported the Lannisters. That was a few hours after Sansa was captured, and about the time, or barely after, Arya escaped.

Well, I'm glad to get this timeline straightened out. (There is still a little room for the exact timing of "the first day", and possibly some room for the exact meaning of "three days hence.")

I'm not sure what the point really is in arguing the word "betrayal," but in my experience, the word usually carries connotations of deliberate intentions to harm (ie the Webster definition, to treacherously inform an enemy.) This could just be me, of course, but I've never heard of an unintentional betrayal, which is what Sansa is guilty of.

Actually, I'm not suggesting that Sansa is merely guilty of "unintentional betrayal". Let's consider what Sansa herself thinks about it, after being told by her lord father that the plans should be kept secret, and not to see Joffrey, and having Septa Mordane take her to task for questioning her father:

P 548, 2/3 into Sansa IV:

"It
was
for love," Sansa said in a rush. "Father wouldn't even give me leave to say farewell." She was the good girl, the obedient girl, but she had felt as wicked as Arya that morning, sneaking away from Septa Mordane, defying her lord father. She had never done anything so willful before, and she would never have done it then if she hadn't loved Joffrey as much as she did. "He was going to take me back to Winterfell and marry me to some hedge knight, even though it was Joff I wanted. I told him, but he wouldn't listen." [she considered the king as her last hope, but was afraid he'd simply send her back to her father, so she went to the Queen instead].

Sounds very intentional to me. She was fully aware that she was defying her father; she revealed plans he expressly wanted kept secret, choosing to tell Cersei precisely because she was more likely to get her way than with the king. She expressly knew she was being wicked, willful. Her reason - "love" [read: wish] for Joff - is her motivation for the betrayal, but all intentional betrayals have motivations.

Sansa betrayed her family's confidence for her own (perceived) benefit. I believe you're mistaken about "intent to harm", as intent is the point, whether to harm another or to help oneself or one's friend. And note that even your definition excerpt to treacherously inform an enemy does not specify any "intent to harm"; indeed, in a classic case, a traitor may betray secrets for pecuniary gain, perhaps hoping and even rationalizing that no harm will be done. Pecuniary gain is of no interest to Sansa, but (at that point) she greatly desires to be married to Joff.

I really do not understand why it is so difficult for you to accept that Sansa betrayed her family. It was exactly what it was - not an effort to hurt, but a revelation she knew to be contrary to her lord father's order, done for her own selfish reasons that directly contradicted her lord father's insistence (her desire to be married to Joff). It was a rebellion, a betrayal, pure and simple. It wasn't the meanest possible betrayal, no; and it was somewhat understandable. But Sansa was aware that people were being killed, that the stakes were rather high. Indeed, it's only slightly more willful than her dishonest resort to "I don't remember" in regard to Mycah, another case in which lives (Mycah's and those of dire wolves) were on the line. She's done some things contrary to her family, for her own personal benefit; just get used to it. She has still suffered a great deal, she's still (too) idealistic, she's still beginning to catch on, she's still ... Sansa Stark.

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I admit to feeling a twinge of pity for all readers that are heavily invested in Arya's character and want to see her come to a good ending. I've always felt she was doomed from the start. Then again, I tend to invest heavily in foreshadowing.

This passage, in particular, made my eyebrows flinch up a bit when I was re-reading AGoT:

"You had best run back to your room, little sister. Septa Mordan will surely be lurking. The longer you hide, the stronger the penance. You'll be sewing all through winter. When the spring thaw comes, they will find your body with a needle still locked tight between your frozen fingers."

I don't see any problem with this. Even a death fighting the Others(frozen fingers) is a good ending for some.

And she will fight(use Needle) all through winter, so she'll die at the end of TWOW or even in the last book. Maybe she'll die protecting something/someone important to her. Or just completing her list. Or just killing people left and right.

But her story is far from over.

I agree with your general premise but I think many might find such an end depressing all the same. You know, it occurs to me, Arya might be the 'bitter' in the bittersweet ending the writer was talking about.

I am also the type to get very invested in foreshadowing and I could not agree more. I think that besides that passage there are lots of signs that point in that particular direction anyway. Arya has no plans for her future that extend beyond vengeance. And she's always being compared to Lyanna who, as well all know, died young. I predict that Arya will die with her sword in her hand in either the penultimate or final novel of the series. I expect a number of major characters will bite the dust by the time it's all over actually.

I think these great points are worth repeating. That passage could indeed foreshadow Arya fighting the good fight to the end, paralleling Lyanna who lived fast, loved hard and died young. Arya the lonely yet fierce and determined fighter, the intrepid heroine committing herself to fight to the death against all that seems unjust to her. Still, she doesn't have to be dead to be found with Needle still clutched in her frozen fingers, so we'll see how darkly harsh Martin is in the end. We certainly have good reason to fear the worst.

Martin has to some extent subverted the plucky tomboy trope darkly by having Arya kill without remorse. But in this series most of the important characters kill many people; that's the nature of Westeros at war. Arya has never killed without good reason, people who either richly deserved to die, or who had to die for wartime strategic reasons. If the deaths were appropriate - and they were - then remorse isn't called for (though she feels that the killing will estrange her from her family, which makes her sad).

I disagree with the notion that she refused to give the Hound the "gift of mercy" in order to make him suffer; it seems clear from her forgetting him on her list that she has become ambivalent about whether he belongs there. I also believe we will find that she didn't kill Dareon, and that her story about Dareon to the KOM included significant lies. The Ghost of High Heart make it clear that Arya will kill a lot of people, but we have reason to hope that she will continue to do so only the way a good soldier would - as necessary.

Another bit of foreshadowing - Jon's comment that different roads may lead to the same castle - suggests she'll reconnect with Jon, even if briefly. If she's going to die fighting the Others, I hope she at least gets absolved by Jon for her justified killing before she dies (so she doesn't think her killing has driven away her family/pack, which is very important to her). With all she's had to fight through it seems like the least Martin could do for her (or rather, for her fans).

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I disagree with the notion that she refused to give the Hound the "gift of mercy" in order to make him suffer; it seems clear from her forgetting him on her list that she has become ambivalent about whether he belongs there.

I'm curious, then, why DIDN'T she do it? Especially when she parts with an angry comment and leaves him there suffering and all but begging to be put out of his misery?

It seems pretty clear she left him to suffer to me.

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If the deaths were appropriate - and they were - then remorse isn't called for (though she feels that the killing will estrange her from her family, which makes her sad).

This is a deeply troubling pronouncement.

AAF, in your ongoing to question to morally rationalise the behaviour of your favourite character, you yourself seem to lose your moral compass. You’re on a dark path, which worries me a lot more than the trajectory of a fictional creation like Arya.

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This is a deeply troubling pronouncement.

AAF, in your ongoing to question to morally rationalise the behaviour of your favourite character, you yourself seem to lose your moral compass. You’re on a dark path, which worries me a lot more than the trajectory of a fictional creation like Arya.

I'm not quite sure I agree; not many of the characters in the story show remorse for people they've killed. Even the 'morally good' ones. Ned doesn't show much remorse for the people who died in the rebellion, nor for the fight at the Tower of Joy, Robb doesn't seem to show remorse for killing Karstark even though he really wishes he didn't have to do it. Most people in the story feel justified when they kill. There may be one or two deaths they regret, but in general they seem to view it as an inevitable part of life.

So I guess what I'm saying is there's no reason for AAF to EXPECT Arya to show remorse. It's not really something that her environment expects of her.

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I'm curious, then, why DIDN'T she do it? Especially when she parts with an angry comment and leaves him there suffering and all but begging to be put out of his misery?
I disagree with AAF on most things, but for this I have always thought that Arya does not kill him because, simply, she cannot do it, and she cannot do it because she actually likes and pities the Hound. While still hating him, somehow. For her death has never been mercy, but punishment (and as evidenced by Dareon, her time with the FM didn't change that). Death is not "too good" for Sandor, as shown when she hopes real wolves come to kill him, no, instead death is too harsh for him. She cannot do it.

She flees that choice, angry with herself (for not going through with, for forgetting Mycah's face, for being like him), not even thinking of herself as a real wolf. At that moment she is really conflicted, in short.

It's highly visible in what she chooses to say to him, of course: she accuses him of not having let her go to her mother, of not having tried to save Catelyn himself. In short, to have saved her life: she knows Catelyn has been killed, she knows Sandor was right when he told her she was dead, her and Robb, too, likely. Her problem is that in the end, neither her nor him are as noble/hard/good as they would want.

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This is a deeply troubling pronouncement.

AAF, in your ongoing to question to morally rationalise the behaviour of your favourite character, you yourself seem to lose your moral compass. You’re on a dark path, which worries me a lot more than the trajectory of a fictional creation like Arya.

I don't see how you make that leap. There have been many people killed throughout this series for which the character did not feel remorse. Brienne did not feel remorse for killing the Bloody Mummers. Innumerable people killed by Rob, Tyrion, Jon, Eddard, Jaime and other favorites in battle, with no remorse for any of them. Even Bran's direwolf killed the people in wolfswood and he felt no remorse.

But, people insist on focusing that Arya does not stop after she killed someone who likely would have killed her and cry each time? Or that she has come to the realization that there is no law in Westeros and it is survival at all costs?

What makes her chapters so appealing and uplifting to me is that she CAN still be a normal person, despite what she has been through. She has been through more, arguably, than any other person in the series, but still goes out of her way to befriend people in Braavos, stick up for Sam to stop him being hurt, and generally care.

The world has treated her like crap and she could have become jaded and twisted like Sandor did, but instead she sticks to her core goodness.

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This is a deeply troubling pronouncement.

AAF, in your ongoing to question [sic quest] to morally rationalise the behaviour of your favourite character, you yourself seem to lose your moral compass. You’re on a dark path, which worries me a lot more than the trajectory of a fictional creation like Arya.

Thank you for your concern, but I assure you it's misplaced.

A compass is a geographical analogy for detecting where good and bad reside. Their locations depend on the world in which one is looking.

In Westeros there is no functioning system of justice. Killing is very much a moral issue in Westeros - some killings are considered good, many are considered seriously bad - but the government hasn't the reach to claim a monopoly on proper killing. Even in 21st century America it is perfectly legal to kill another in self defense, not to mention that in war people may be encouraged or even required to kill others. In Westeros, there is a much broader range of circumstances in which killing would be considered "lawful" or proper, probably even as compared to a modern war. Long-term incarceration isn't practical, so death is the typical punishment for serious crimes (such as associating with Lannisters - just kidding, now THAT's immoral).

I don't think my morality is "dark"; it is well illuminated, but it is not so simplistic as to ignore context. And BTW, it's certainly odd to hear an UnCat defender claiming my moral compass is misaligned.

If you have a particular action that Arya performed that you believe was immoral under the circumstances, I'll be happy to debate it with you - and it's even a subject suitable for this thread!

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I'm hoping it will be Sansa that dies a painful and tragic death instead of Arya.

That seems a fate so monstrously cruel that I have to ask why you would wish that on her.

If there's any character in the series who doesn't deserve a painful and tragic death it's got to be Sansa Stark, who has pretty much endured nothing but abuse since midway through AGOT.

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I'm curious, then, why DIDN'T she do it? Especially when she parts with an angry comment and leaves him there suffering and all but begging to be put out of his misery?

It seems pretty clear she left him to suffer to me.

Don't you recall her wondering why she had left the Hound off her "list"? Great writing: she didn't explicitly, consciously analyze the situation, yet she found herself much less convinced that he was guilty. Since the reasons for her change of heart aren't clear, even to herself, I'll speculate on them freely: Sandor had survived the trial by combat with Dondarrion; she probably realized that he had protected her by hitting her with the axe, even though she wishes she could have gone and saved her family; he's been remarkably tolerant of her; and they share some of the same enemies (Gregor et al.). For all these reasons and more, she's subconsciously come to at least be unsure if he's bad enough to deserve to die. Oh, in her confusion she says his name anyway, but it's clearly not very heartfelt. Heck, she was trying to SAVE him in the fight at the Inn - arguably so that Polliver and the Tickler would die, but it seemed more than that.

Plus, look at her trying to help him take care of his wounds. She's conflicted, no doubt, and if you want you can argue Stockholm syndrome, but she really tried to heal him, not to hurt him.

So all of that leads me to believe that Arya has become deeply ambivalent about Sandor, and could no longer take his life. Faced with a tough decision, she leaves it in the hands of the gods, consciously or not. It isn't like there's anything she can do to help him, so she may as well leave.

Also, consider the men in cages in Stony Sept. Anguy was the one who put them out of their misery. Arya took them water.

Arya kills - it's a powerful tool, but it isn't what she prefers. (And she didn't kill Dareon.)

ETA: Errant Bard has put it much better than I did (or could). Even if he's usually wrong.

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death is the typical punishment for serious crimes (such as associating with Lannisters - just kidding, now THAT's immoral).

Actally I think you may have accidentally illuminated a good point.

To a lot of people right now, associating with the Lannisters is indeed a crime punishable by death. Justice in Westeros is very much down to what you can take with force of arms. At least it's become that way. And in war, provided you're doing it to the guys on the other side, it's all good.

Add to that regional variances in morality, custom and tradition, you end up with a confused melting pot of beliefs and ideas. Everyone believes in the death penalty but nobody seems to agree which crimes justify it. I don't even think oathbreaking is universal, and treason only counts so long as your own children or family aren't doing it.

I don't think my morality is "dark"; it is well illuminated, but it is not so simplistic as to ignore context. And BTW, it's certainly odd to hear an UnCat defender claiming my moral compass is misaligned.

Lol. Good point.

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To a lot of people right now, associating with the Lannisters is indeed a crime punishable by death. Justice in Westeros is very much down to what you can take with force of arms. At least it's become that way. And in war, provided you're doing it to the guys on the other side, it's all good.

Add to that regional variances in morality, custom and tradition, you end up with a confused melting pot of beliefs and ideas. Everyone believes in the death penalty but nobody seems to agree which crimes justify it. I don't even think oathbreaking is universal, and treason only counts so long as your own children or family aren't doing it.

And within that confused morality/legality about death, Martin has carefully arranged Arya to kill profligately, but always (until Dareon) with ample justification in the eyes of most people: for military reasons (weasel soup), personal safety (the guard and, I'd argue, Weese, both of whom prevented her escaping), or due to the criminality of the victim (Chiswyck, the Tickler).

Even though killing Dareon is arguably justifiable, it is less clearly appropriate than the others. That gives others cause to think Arya is rapidly darkening, but it gave me cause to carefully reread everything about Dareon and Arya. Careful review made me confident she lied to the KOM about Dareon, though I'm not certain how; but she logically wouldn't, and probably didn't, kill him. Another poster conjectured that Arya purchased Dareon's boots to give him the coin necessary to get back to the Wall (while he was somehow warned that death for desertion would follow him even to Braavos). There's certainly a bit of a logistical difficulty there.

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