Cynthia POV

[M'lady Cynthia Rayder]

G'Morning!

Well last night was a great read, so much has happened in just a few chapters... I don't bring my book to work with me (that would be dangerous) so please bare with me as I don't have the chapter names/numbers... I will try to detail my thoughts/feelings per event listed by the main character.... I am at approx page 450.

King Robert

I had felt something might happen to the king, I felt her was going to be hurt, but I thought of it in battle, not hunt. I felt kinda sad and let down that he was written out so quickly, within a chapter he was injured and dead. I am curious about the steward giving him the wine, maybe too much of it? That is what Ned seemed to lead to when they were discussing it. I am not sure if he was leading to the idea that it was intentional, and if so, I don't agree, there are easiers ways to kill a king whenout on a hunt, then feeding him too much wine and hoping he does something silly. This chapter surprised me too, in how Ned stays so loyal and honest, where everyone all around him is not. I think his choices to send for Stannis were wrong, and trusting that the letter gets there, when handed to one of the many potential enemies was stupid on his behalf. The battle that then takes place is crazy, I didn't expect that to happen yet, see what I mean, it was a sudden chain of events!!

Arya

I LOVE this little girl. I am sad that her water dancer teacher is most likely at this point persumed dead, however I think it would be very interesting to have him pop up again to see what his student has made of herself. I thik the lessons Arya learned from him, will ground her character into adulthood. I hope she makes it out of the castle alone, and begins her trek back to Winterfell

Sansa

texWhat an idiot! Are young girls really this naive? She lives her life according to songs of love, ad leaves all instinct of danger aside... they say Sansa is more of a Tully, but I beleieve she to be more of a Stark in heart and mind, as she doesn't see danger when it is right on front of her face!

Cersei

This is a love/hate relationship for me. I hate her for being so evil and selfish, but love her for her tenacity and cunning behaviour. She has Sansa completely won over, and Sansa is even writign thoseletters that willl in no doubt assist in the demise of bringing down the Stark family, or at least a chance to by Cersei...

Question:

What is the age to be considered "man grown" to be King?

The advise that Joff is the King, but he is only 12, what would be the age that King Robert had said he take the throne at?

Question:

Why was the Kings letter not actioned? It was being discussed by the council, and Ned, when they were called to the council hall where Joff is apparenlty acting king. Was this simply the Lannisters taking their own action? And if the council had not supported the Lannisters, then Ned would be sitting as acting King, right?

Question:

Why did Ned not take the opportunity to say that the children are not Roberts in front of the council?

[M'lady Cynthia Rayder]

Oops! I almost forgot to mention, Doh!!!

Good bye Viserys! you slimy devil, glad to see you go. The HBO show visually made you a real ugly creeper and so in mmy mind that is how I picture you, and I'm glad your gone.

[MinDonner]

Thanks for sharing, Cynthia! :) I hope you manage to keep commenting for the rest of the series, I'm really enjoying reading all these accounts from first-time readers.

[M'lady Cynthia Rayder]

Thanks for sharing, Cynthia! :) I hope you manage to keep commenting for the rest of the series, I'm really enjoying reading all these accounts from first-time readers.

Thanks MinDonner!

Do you have any insight into my questions? I don't want the answers if they will spoil whats coming up in the books, but would like to know your thoughts on why things played out as they did..

Many thanks.

[zmflavius]

Question:

What is the age to be considered "man grown" to be King?

The advise that Joff is the King, but he is only 12, what would be the age that King Robert had said he take the throne at?

Question:

Why was the Kings letter not actioned? It was being discussed by the council, and Ned, when they were called to the council hall where Joff is apparenlty acting king. Was this simply the Lannisters taking their own action? And if the council had not supported the Lannisters, then Ned would be sitting as acting King, right?

Question:

Why did Ned not take the opportunity to say that the children are not Roberts in front of the council?

1) I think that it's sixteen, in one of the later books, one character tells another, "you're not an adult until you're sixteen."

2) It was actually his will, and yes, I suppose Ned would be acting king if the will was carried out. But Ned also made the (true) point that Joffrey was not the king because he actually was a bastard, and he had written in "my heir" instead of "my son Joffrey" and if the news that Joffrey was not Cersei's son was made public, then that would make Stannis king, who was old enough to rule for himself. The story had not yet broken, but Ned intended to reveal it (but nobody believed him). Ned did try to carry out the will, but he knew that the Lannisters would not simply surrender without a fight, and as such, he needed the city watch, 2000 men, and the only force of that size in the city. He trusted Petyr to buy the watch, to carry out the letter, but instead, Petyr told them to kill Ned's men and arrest him. So, yes, the Lannisters took their own action, and the council, or rather, Petyr and Janos, supported them, and took the Lannister's side.

3) If you mean when he tried to have Janos arrest Joffrey, he did. Of course, nobody believed him.

[iheartseverus]

2) It was actually his will, and yes, I suppose Ned would be acting king if the will was carried out.

Had the terms of the will been carried out, Ned would have become regent, rather than acting king. A regent administers the day to day affairs of a kingdom while waiting for the actual king to become available--that's true whether the actual king is 'not available' because he's underage, or ill or out of touch for a long time for whatever reason. Theoretically, the regent has no personal power of his own, since everything he does is done 'in the name of the king.' In actual fact, of course, a regent has tremendous power--witness (regent) William Longchamp's ascension while his King, Richard Lionheart, was absent from the kingdom for years. (Not that Ned Stark would have used his position as regent to gain wealth and power for himself, of course. Far from it, I believe...)

[zmflavius]

Had the terms of the will been carried out, Ned would have become regent, rather than acting king. A regent administers the day to day affairs of a kingdom while waiting for the actual king to become available--that's true whether the actual king is 'not available' because he's underage, or ill or out of touch for a long time for whatever reason. Theoretically, the regent has no personal power of his own, since everything he does is done 'in the name of the king.' In actual fact, of course, a regent has tremendous power--witness (regent) William Longchamp's ascension while his King, Richard Lionheart, was absent from the kingdom for years. (Not that Ned Stark would have used his position as regent to gain wealth and power for himself, of course. Far from it, I believe...)

But in practice, aren't they the same?

[iheartseverus]

But in practice, aren't they the same?

Probably, at least in the power of the office. But there is a huge difference in...not sure how to word it.. in status. Think of Denethor, steward of Gondor in LOTR, as opposed to Aragorn, the rightful king. A regent is a steward, put in place to 'mind the store' while the rightful occupant is unavailable, expected to conduct all affairs of state as will most benefit the king, not himself, and expected to quietly stand aside and walk away when the rightful king returns to the throne. He is expected to have no personal ambitions of his own while in office, but simply to carry out duties as his king would see fit. In GRRM's world, the regent would act much as GRRM's 'Hand of the King' acts. I guess I see the difference in the terms 'acting king' and 'regent' as an 'acting king' having the right to, well, act as a king. Whereas, a regent has only the right to act on behalf of his king. The regent has no claim to the thone itself, none, zero. He is a temporary employee, if you will. An employee with tremendous (if temporary) power, of course, but an employee, nonetheless.

Robert was absolutely 100% right to name Ned as regent. Given Ned's personal code of honor, he'd be the perfect steward, just, fair, honest, in no way using his position to further his own fortunes. Alas, GRRM decided it was not to be.

[zmflavius]

Probably, at least in the power of the office. But there is a huge difference in...not sure how to word it.. in status. Think of Denethor, steward of Gondor in LOTR, as opposed to Aragorn, the rightful king. A regent is a steward, put in place to 'mind the store' while the rightful occupant is unavailable, expected to conduct all affairs of state as will most benefit the king, not himself, and expected to quietly stand aside and walk away when the rightful king returns to the throne. He is expected to have no personal ambitions of his own while in office, but simply to carry out duties as his king would see fit. In GRRM's world, the regent would act much as GRRM's 'Hand of the King' acts. I guess I see the difference in the terms 'acting king' and 'regent' as an 'acting king' having the right to, well, act as a king. Whereas, a regent has only the right to act on behalf of his king. The regent has no claim to the thone itself, none, zero. He is a temporary employee, if you will. An employee with tremendous (if temporary) power, of course, but an employee, nonetheless.

Robert was absolutely 100% right to name Ned as regent. Given Ned's personal code of honor, he'd be the perfect steward, just, fair, honest, in no way using his position to further his own fortunes. Alas, GRRM decided it was not to be.

Ah, I see.

On the other hand, it is debatable whether Ned would have been a good regent. In theory, he had the makings of a great regent, especially in how he isn't the type to abuse his position.

However, one could argue that Ned's fate came about precisely because he was a good regent, because he wasn't ruthless and "political" enough to hold back the ones who weren't so selfless. In this sense, would he really be a good regent? I mean, I think because of this, Tyrion would be a better peacetime regent, a decent person who isn't out to rob the kingdom who can still play the game of thrones.

[iheartseverus]

Ah, I see.

On the other hand, it is debatable whether Ned would have been a good regent. In theory, he had the makings of a great regent, especially in how he isn't the type to abuse his position.

However, one could argue that Ned's fate came about precisely because he was a good regent, because he wasn't ruthless and "political" enough to hold back the ones who weren't so selfless. In this sense, would he really be a good regent? I mean, I think because of this, Tyrion would be a better peacetime regent, a decent person who isn't out to rob the kingdom who can still play the game of thrones.

Excellent point! I think (hope) I don't need spoilers here because we're just discussing what-ifs, not anything that actually happened. Looking at your reasoning, I agree that someone like Tyrion, rather than Ned, and rather than our Tyrion himself would make the best regent. Tyrion's whip-smart mind, his understanding, and acceptance to a point, of the lies, deceptions, underlying motivations, grudges, greeds and intricacies of court life would make him a formidable regent, able to head off and frustrate all the boiling plots and lies continuously swirling through the court. And Tyrion can be ruthless where he needs to be. But....

Our Tyrion has one great and nearly fatal weakness--his love for his family and his (in my view) heartbreaking yearning to be loved and respected by them, in return. In a pinch, would our Tyrion 'out' Cersei to the world for one of her murderous, nutty plots and revenges? I think not. Would our Tyrion injure or publicly diminish Jaime in any way, no matter what Jaime did? No, he loves Jaime beyond anyone else in his life, at least at this point in the story. That will change down the line, of course. No question in my mind that Tyrion knows exactly what goes on between Cersei and Jaime--I mean, its been going on since they were kids. Plus, our Tyrion despises (and rightly so!) 'King' Joffrey. Our Tyrion, IMHO, is too deeply, and shakily, emotionally invested in his family issues to rule as regent fairly, honestly. Sadly.

So, yes, someone just like Tyrion would make a great regent. Excellent insight on your part.

[Basel Gill]

3) If you mean when he tried to have Janos arrest Joffrey, he did. Of course, nobody believed him.

He claimed Stannis was the rightful heir in that scene. But he never came right out and said that Joff (or any of the other kids) weren't Robert's children.

[zmflavius]

He claimed Stannis was the rightful heir in that scene. But he never came right out and said that Joff (or any of the other kids) weren't Robert's children.

He didn't come out and say it, but I think the imputation was there. By saying that "Lord Stannis is Robert's true heir, he essentially says that "your three children have no claim," especially since he just said, "your son has no claim to the throne he sits." I think that while he never explained why, most people figured he was saying, "They're not actually Robert's children." in a roundabout way.

[M'lady Cynthia Rayder]

I finished the book! All I can say is wow! I would like to thank HBO for hosting this series, as I would probably not have heard of this series of books if it not had been for the series on HBO. I am not a huge reader, but do enjoy these types of books. I did the LOTR series, and another favourite are the Jack Whyte series... But this one, SOIAF really has me hooked, it is probabluy the drama around the show adding to it, but none the less, I am enjoying it...

My overall thoughts on GoT;

Viserys; glad he is gone and got to wear his golden crown! LOL...

I really like Dany and who she has become, a young women, very strong! Teh way she orders her slaves and new blood riders around when they are getting KDrogo ready for his cremation are crazy. She does all this, knowing don't look back, but I am not sure she really knows what is in the future for her, only that it is of great power, but the fact she really doesn't know makes it all the more suspenseful!

Poor Ned, from thereading the book and before I read soilers online, I had not idea he would be killed off! I thought he would remain a mani character through out the series... I thik his death just paves the way for the story.. splitting his family up, scattering them around, allowing them to create their own stories and adventures, while all the while still being tied to the Stark family by Neds memory...

Arya - I look forward to her adventures and seeing how she may or may not get out of KL.

Sansa - my hopes are the what Sansa goes through towards the end of the book, slightly pre and post her fathers death, will frame her to be a much stronger women, when she grows. I hope she can get out the castle...

Jon - glad he is keeping his honour to the Black, despite his fathers murder! Also, despite all the theories, just from reading the GoT once, I do not really have any theories on Jons parents, other than what is said in the book. There is some suspect around Ned's words when discussing Jons mother to him, he does not refer to him as a son, but just that he has Stark blood, and also Ned is again mysterious about it when answering Roberts questions about Jon's mother...

Catelyn - her character doesn't interest me much...

Questions:

1. Does Maester Aemon at The Wall being a Targaryen, play into Jon's heritage at all? I am wondering if it is purely story additive to have a Targ at the wall, when there is so much speculation around Jon being a Targ...

[Bronn Stone]

Cynthia - welcome to the series, welcome to the boards.

Ask and you shall be answered. Choose your level of poison!

Very mild Spoiler response to your spoiler question

Aemon is a maester and 100 years old and a Targaryen. If nothing else, his head is chock full of history. He has the sort of mind that kept him interested in current events even when he was far from Kings Landing and his family.

Seriously more spoiler-y response to same

Much later in the books, we learn Aemon regularly communicated with Rhaegar. He knows stuff that we as readers still don't, even after four books.

Total spoiler response

Aemon gives no hint as to whether he knows anything is amiss about Jon's heritage. But he DID give Rhaegar advice about prophecies. In later books, we learn that Rhaegar read a prophecy as a young man that caused him to totally restructure his life. GRRM has never revealed the details of that prophecy, but it is generally believed to be a course of action necessary to save the world from The Others. Aemon was as fully as informed as Rhaegar.

[Kissiq]

Nice Review :)

King robert - I had no love for him sadly. I dint like him. He was a useless King, point blank period. It was all a game to him and the monsters keep their masks on so long as he was alive. They knew how stupid and naive he was. Sorry for being hash but seriously, he was destroyed the day he became king.

I partially blame Ned for his death though I wonder if the King would listen to him anyway. He hid the monsters from Robert as well, another evil which helped him in no way. Cost him his head and put the whole 7 kingdoms at war. Death of thousands of people, just because of his stupid cards to play in this "Game of Thrones".

In terms of this game, both these men wasted their times... and hence, died.

Arya:

I love her too, my favourite character. She is little and tough. "Quiet as a shadow" Lol. Her PoV BY FAR is my favourite read (I often skip others eg. Catelyn [ugh] just to get to hers again)

Sansa:

I disagree with you comparison of stark vs tully character. Sansa is blind like her father, but i dont believe all starks were as blind as him. And i know nothing of the tully's but I know she is much like her mother as well. More like her mom than dad, which means she is weak. the weakest of the children (like Lady) even weaker than Rickon. Not only weak in strength but also weak of character.

The bullshit that men should defend women and women should look pretty and bear children >>> Sansa and Catelyn. Dutiful, lady like, courteous, etc. I think it is sansa and catelyn that make me like Arya so much. Sansa and Catelyn will get a rude awakening in book 2 though, look out for that.

Cersai:

I dont even hate her. sorry. As in when she dies i wont even flinch or laugh. she is a pretty drab character to me because i cant see where her evil stems. Just like lord tywin. At least I will laugh when Jaimie dies. lol He and Tyrion are the best of than bunch.

Q1:Man grown is age 15-16.

Q2: Simple answer is corruption. the thing that stark was blind to, that the whole thing was a show. that no Honor and Honesty was involve. No one care about the authenticity f the letter because the Queen gave them coin and that is what matters.

Q3: No one would believe him, he had no proof and he stood naked and alone among lions.

Also he is almost as naive as Sansa with his blindfold called "Honor". He actually killed Rbert the day he opened his lips to Cersai Re: Her abominations and incest

G'Morning!

Well last night was a great read, so much has happened in just a few chapters... I don't bring my book to work with me (that would be dangerous) so please bare with me as I don't have the chapter names/numbers... I will try to detail my thoughts/feelings per event listed by the main character.... I am at approx page 450.

[ferthepoet]

Arya

I LOVE this little girl. I am sad that her water dancer teacher is most likely at this point persumed dead, however I think it would be very interesting to have him pop up again to see what his student has made of herself. I thik the lessons Arya learned from him, will ground her character into adulthood. I hope she makes it out of the castle alone, and begins her trek back to Winterfell

Sansa

texWhat an idiot! Are young girls really this naive? She lives her life according to songs of love, ad leaves all instinct of danger aside... they say Sansa is more of a Tully, but I beleieve she to be more of a Stark in heart and mind, as she doesn't see danger when it is right on front of her face!

I just love this