Arya is not psychotic

[Kittyhat]

Wow. This isn't anything to do with wrong!

She did nothing wrong in that scene. Or rather she didn't do anything that doesn't make sense. But she absolutely had a psychotic break in that scene. She went completely mental and stabbed a guy 50 times well after he was dead while screaming random obscenities and catchphrases. It made perfect sense.

But is that 'normal' for a 10 year old? Is it normal for anyone? If you did that - if most humans did that - would you expect some measure of psychological fallout for that?

I'd expect some measure of psychological fallout from everything that led up to that even more than "that" itself. The screaming, for example! Which was a perfectly normal and actually healthy reaction given the extreme circumstances.

Also:

Well, if you want to do an evaluation based on modern psychiatric and psychological principles then I would argue that the majority of medieval humans were probably suffering from a combination of post traumatic stress, abnormal and abusive formative childhood years, an over exposure to violence and a desensitization to brutality.

By modern psychiatric definitions they were probably ALL suffering from various degrees of mental disorder.

But this is Westeros. Captured women become saltwives, innocent maidens are ravaged just for being seen in the Riverlands, people's hands are chopped off when they steal, and most people are brutalized in one way or another by their overlords.

The point is, you cannot use modern psychiatric standards to evaluate them. They have all hardened the f**** up compared to our soft modern civilization. They have had to, in order to survive.

By their standards, Arya is just an incredibly tough, resilient and strong minded young girl. A survivor.

:agree:

Which is not to say Arya isn't damaged goods. She is, but she lives in a world wherein it's hard not to be. I do think she's at a crossroads, though. I'm just not convinced she's definitely chosen the dark path yet.

[Kalbear]

I'd expect some measure of psychological fallout from everything that led up to that even more than "that" itself. The screaming, for example! Which was a perfectly normal and actually healthy reaction given the extreme circumstances.

You're actually willing to characterize stabbing a corpse repeatedly while screaming at it as 'healthy'.

For a 10-year old girl.

Okay.

By that notion, that was the only healthy act she's committed. She's otherwise kept her emotions completely bottled up inside. She doesn't cry. She doesn't scream in anger. She doesn't cheer for her enemy's death. She doesn't think about what she's done. So all of these things are unhealthy by that notion, right?

And afterwards - after she's stabbed the Tickler a bunch of times well past his death, covered in blood and gore and whatnot - she's back to being unhealthy. She's back to not thinking about what she's done at all.

I do think I agree with you - that her showing anger and hatred towards the Tickler and this extreme reaction IS much more healthy than her reaction to killing all the others. That to me only underscores how bad she's become.

Is a police sniper a sociopath for feeling nothing when he kills a hostage taker in cold blood? Arya just extends that judgement to include a much wider portion of society than merely a hypothetical hostage taker. The stableboy in Harrenhal, for example. He falls within that cateogry by virtue of being a servant of the enemy.

It is just a matter of the standards by which she judges who is good and who is bad. But she never breaks that rule, as it exists in her mind.

Yes, and that she has her own standards of conduct that aren't associated with the real world, that she has her own duty to judge others and carry out lethal enforcements of those judgments - those make her a criminal sociopath.

As to a police sniper, I can't say. It depends on whether they carry around a list of the people that they'd like to kill the most. It depends if they kill people without an order. It depends on a lot of things. I would say that if a sniper saw the guy who was banging his wife and shot him 40 times on full auto while screaming into an open mike "IS MY WIFE LOOSE LIKE A SLOT MACHINE" over and over, I'd say that he lost it. I'd also say that he was pretty well damaged if he went around and assassinated people he wasn't ordered to. I'd recommend against comparing an adult whose job it is to sometimes kill (and many police will tell you that killing is hard on them) vs a 10 year old girl who stabs people on a list of 'things to do today'.

[Talleyrand]

I see her as very similar to Jon Shannow, David Gemmell's iconic, self appointed vigilante, who goes around slaying brigands based solely on his own judgement. In other words, he is judge, jury and executioner.

Is he slightly insane? Sure. But in a very cool and enjoyable way. I fully expect Arya to go the same way. Her killings are far from over. But for the most part, those that die at her hands won't be missed. When she reaches the end of her life, I expect she will have removed far more evil people from the world than innocent ones.

So as a whole her contribution to Westeros society will have been a positive one.

As much as i love Jon he is a bit of a sociopath. Sure he does save a lot of people but then again he appoints himself judge, jury and executioner and on top of that he launches a nuke at a city and orders the genocide of another.

But then if people try and justify Arya's behaviour by saying she's been through a lot. Shannow had both his real family and his foster family murdered before his eyes at a young age. His brother and his role model, the first Jon Shannow were murdered. All those he befriended have either been killed or deserted him. When he's tried to live a peaceful life men tried to kill him. He's been through a lot too but it doesn't stop him being slightly insane.

And any way Arya can't be as cool as him, she doesn't have the hat.

[Free Northman]

As much as i love Jon he is a bit of a sociopath. Sure he does save a lot of people but then again he appoints himself judge, jury and executioner and on top of that he launches a nuke at a city and orders the genocide of another.

But then if people try and justify Arya's behaviour by saying she's been through a lot. Shannow had both his real family and his foster family murdered before his eyes at a young age. His brother and his role model, the first Jon Shannow were murdered. All those he befriended have either been killed or deserted him. When he's tried to live a peaceful life men tried to kill him. He's been through a lot too but it doesn't stop him being slightly insane.

And any way Arya can't be as cool as him, she doesn't have the hat.

Hehe.

We're talking about my two favourite fantasy characters here, along with Waylander the Slayer. I never thought an 11 year old girl could stand in the company of these two icons, but Martin has done an amazing job in achieving just that.

[Kittyhat]

You're actually willing to characterize stabbing a corpse repeatedly while screaming at it as 'healthy'.

For a 10-year old girl.

Okay.

By modern standards? In a normative situation? No.

Within the context of the insane situations she's been put through and the vicious, ultra-violent world she lives in? Hell yes.

You can't just take the situation out of its context like you're doing. Or rather, you can, but it's highly disingenuous.

By that notion, that was the only healthy act she's committed. She's otherwise kept her emotions completely bottled up inside. She doesn't cry. She doesn't scream in anger. She doesn't cheer for her enemy's death. She doesn't think about what she's done. So all of these things are unhealthy by that notion, right?

Actually, she engages in emotional displays quite often. There are times, though, when she has to hide her feelings ... quite frequently, in fact. It's called "survival."

And afterwards - after she's stabbed the Tickler a bunch of times well past his death, covered in blood and gore and whatnot - she's back to being unhealthy. She's back to not thinking about what she's done at all.

She's worked out some of the bottled horrible feelings that she was carrying around, brought on by witnessing all of the horrific things she was forced to watch him do, and is now looming over the corpse of an extraordinarily evil man who absolutely deserved to die. And she is, by now, sufficiently desensitized to killing and death to not lose her lunch over it.

What is she supposed to do? Break down with remorse over her horrendous act of sending a total monster to hell where he belongs?

I do think I agree with you - that her showing anger and hatred towards the Tickler and this extreme reaction IS much more healthy than her reaction to killing all the others. That to me only underscores how bad she's become.

She's become a cool, hardened, calculating killer, to be sure. What I'm not convinced she's become is evil. Is she nice, sweet, and innocent? All sugar and spice? No.

But is that a bad thing?

Remember, this is the world of A Song of Ice and Fire. This is a world that EATS nice, sweet, innocent people. Arya has become what she had to become to survive.

[Restless]

Do you think Ned or Cat (as parents, not aristocrats) would be ok with Arya's deeds and aspirations (even if they treated her as a boy)?

Ned would understand her.

(Un)Cat will be proud :leer:

[Talleyrand]

Hehe.

We're talking about my two favourite fantasy characters here, along with Waylander the Slayer. I never thought an 11 year old girl could stand in the company of these two icons, but Martin has done an amazing job in achieving just that.

Now you've got the image of a showdown between those three characters in my head. Arya would win i reckon. Not through skill or anything. just that Jon and Waylander would see each other as the bigger threat and probably kill each other leaving Arya the winner

[Happy Ent]

Remember, this is the world of A Song of Ice and Fire. This is a world that EATS nice, sweet, innocent people. Arya has become what she had to become to survive.

As many already pointed out, this is an old theme, and some of us may not be able to muster the necessary enthusiasm. Still, let me add one old horse of an argument to this.

The argument from necessity of Westerosi harshness can be elucidated by looking at how other characters view Arya. Hot Pie. Gendry. They live in the same world as Arya. They live under the same conditions. Actually, far worse ones. None of them born noble. None of the cupbearers to Roose Bolton. Yet not one them turns into Arya. They are positively appalled by her behaviour. Yet they both survived. Thus, we have story-internal opinions on Arya’s character. Arya did not just do what she had to to survive.

But the main argument for Arya not being quite right in her head are not so much her appalling actions, but the lack of empathy, conflict, or remorse. Compare the internal monologues of Jon and Arya in the two scenes where they kill a sentry. Or consider Arya’s options when she tries to buy a horse.

Arya, even by the standards of war-torn Westors is a sociopath.

[DurararaFTW]

It's stupid to declare her irrevocably fucked up just because she saw a hardside of life. Every peasant in the series has likely endured stuff similar to her yet they aren't running around murdering people. In this realm boys of 9-13 would ride into battle. Surrounded by men and horse being slaughtered and shitting. Doesn't seem like every squire and page who survive the battles is totally fucked up in the head. People should stop expecting Arya to become some Patrick Batemenesque serial killer who flings death on a whim. The girl kills when she needs to. Never because she wants to. And she always hears their last words. Ned would be proud. Thug life.

First of all

NO. It is not likely that every peasant in the series has ranked up two dozen kills as a 9 year old. This is not a world 9 year old boys ride into battle. People come of age at 17, Jaime was remarkable for becoming a knight at 15. Joffrey and Robb are special cases because they just had to make themselves king. Nobody thought that was a good idea. Robb at 14 having intended to be Warden of the North his whole life and trained as such should have relinquished fieldcommand to someone else and stayed at Winterfell.

Arya, the 9 year old that goes though endless death, destruction and murder and is still able to pretend to be a average boy selling fish IS a uniquely ****ed up individual. I don't think it's irrevocable, but I think she's going to need A LOT of help going back to normal life.

[Horza]

Arya's Tickler stab-frenzy is "normal" in the sense that if she'd killed him stone cold and then gone on to remark about the terrible beer at the inn she'd be a genuine psycho. Instead, she's just really, really screwed up.

[Kittyhat]

The argument from necessity of Westerosi harshness can be elucidated by looking at how other characters view Arya. Hot Pie. Gendry. They live in the same world as Arya. They live under the same conditions. Actually, far worse ones. None of them born noble. None of the cupbearers to Roose Bolton. Yet not one them turns into Arya. They are positively appalled by her behaviour. Yet they both survived. Thus, we have story-internal opinions on Aryas character. Arya did not just do what she had to to survive.

They survived by riding Arya's coattails to safety. Don't for one minute think either of those two would have made it without her. If you do think so, I suggest you go back and re-read. They survived because of her period.

And Arya scares Hot Pie, and even then only at first, because he's soft and weak, and she's hardened and tough (and a killer, yes). Gendry just tells her she's the only useful member of their little group "even if you are a girl." By the time they part ways, Hot Pie is hoping to see her again someday.

Not exactly the reaction of someone horrified to the core by her.

[DurararaFTW]

They survived by riding Arya's coattails to safety. Don't for one minute think either of those two would have made it without her. If you do think so, I suggest you go back and re-read. They survived because of her period.

And Arya scares Hot Pie, and even then only at first, because he's soft and weak, and she's hardened and tough (and a killer, yes). Gendry just tells her she's the only useful member of their little group "even if you are a girl." By the time they part ways, Hot Pie is hoping to see her again someday.

Not exactly the reaction of someone horrified to the core by her.

Okay, so they wouldn't have survived. People'd sooner die then turn into the thing that Arya is now. So don't say "well she's just surviving, that's all."

[Free Northman]

Okay, so they wouldn't have survived. People'd sooner die then turn into the thing that Arya is now. So don't say "well she's just surviving, that's all."

"I hurt my leg! Gimme some leg potion!"

"I got some leg potion for you right here, boy, on the tip of my spear..."

And thus ended Lommy Greenhands.

[Lord Varys]

Come on guys, if we are discussing morals here, right and wrong, we can't use survival as an argument. Morals forbid you to do some things, even if they are necessary for your survival. Else they would not be morals. Arya may do what it is necessary to survive, true, but in a moral discussion surviving is not a point.

[Free Northman]

Come on guys, if we are discussing morals here, right and wrong, we can't use survival as an argument. Morals forbid you to do some things, even if they are necessary for your survival. Else they would not be morals. Arya may do what it is necessary to survive, true, but in a moral discussion surviving is not a point.

Fair enough. Let's see, then.

Arya is not amoral. She has very strong morals, else she'll never stand up for the innocent and weak, and would just take food and water and clothing from those weaker than herself.

She has a very strongly developed sense of justice. As I said before, it simply differs from the notions of justice that some more enlightened people may hold to.

She divides people into the good and bad category, and treat them accordingly.

As to the original point of this post, if being single minded to the point of obsession, emotionally hardened and desensitized to death and brutality makes her a little mentally disturbed, then sure, that may well be the case. But I think it is all part of what makes her a great character.

She may be slightly unhinged, but in a good way, if that makes sense. She remains a protagonist, and a very strongly sympathetic one.

[Kittyhat]

Come on guys, if we are discussing morals here, right and wrong, we can't use survival as an argument. Morals forbid you to do some things, even if they are necessary for your survival. Else they would not be morals. Arya may do what it is necessary to survive, true, but in a moral discussion surviving is not a point.

But you're applying modern morality based on and assuming a modern, normative environment. Arya can't just go home or look for an adult to help or even just dial 911. It's not that simple in her situation. You're taking standards that work in the safety of suburbia in our modern world and applying them to people at the center of a massive war in a world where people do things like rape and murder children regularly, and it's called politics.

[Happy Ent]

They survived by riding Arya's coattails to safety. Don't for one minute think either of those two would have made it without her. If you do think so, I suggest you go back and re-read. They survived because of her period.

Hi Kitty, and welcome to the board. I suggest you stop asking people to re-read. It seldom comes off as anything else than condescension and needless hostility.

A more constructive (and far friendlier) tone of debate is to use with examples, preferably with quotes, that strengthen your point.

Anyway, to your point: Did Arya save or endanger Hot Pie and Gendry? Good question. I‘m not sure I know the answer.

Her and Hot Pie have a conversation about that at Harrenhal. He’s making pies. He‘s no worse off than he was before. Only Arya, a noble daughter, finds the plight of being a mere servant beneath her. She’s born with a silver spoon in her mouth, after all. The situation of people like Hot Pie, whose services she has taken for granted all her life, is unacceptable for her. She must flee.

How about Gendry? He’s back to smithing. Not inclined to risk his life for her again.

She looked right at him, fearless. “So when Vargo Hoat’s the lord, he’s going to cut off the feet of all the servants to keep them from running away. The smiths too.”

“That’s only a story,” he said scornfully.

“No, it’s true, I heard Lord Vargo say so,” she lied. “He’s going to cut one foot off everyone. The left one. Go to the kitchens and wake Hot Pie, he’ll do what you say. We’ll need bread or oakcakes or something. You get the swords and I’ll do the horses. We’ll meet near the postern in the east wall, behind the Tower of Ghosts. No one ever comes there.”

Lovely, eh? She lies to him to get him to risk his life.

Now, to some extent the morality of this hinges on whether or not Vargo Hoat would have killed Hot Pie and Gendry when he took over Harrenhal. Or does it? If Hoat had gone on a servant-maiming spree then Arya’s deliberate jeopardization of Hot Pie and Gendry for her quest then she’d have been vindicated? Else not? So the morality of her lie depends on whether she can correctly predict the future?

[Lord Varys]

Murder is still a crime in Westeros. I do not apply modern times morals on Westeros. Arya did not know if and what would happen to her in Harrenhal under Vargo Hoat. She might actually have been able to make a career within his company, for all we know... Shagwell apparently was fond of her.

She did not what to stay there, she wanted to go home. But that does not justify the murder of the sentry. End of story. It's really that easy.

And it is her own fault that she remained stuck in Harrenhal because she did not reveal herself as Arya Stark to the Northmen. I do not say she should had revealed herself to Roose Bolton privately, after she had learned what kind of creepy guy he is, but she could have revealed herself down there to all of them when she delivered the weasel soup. Jaqen really wanted to tell them about her. And Bolton would not have been able to use the sister of his king to his own ends with all the other Northern lords knowing about her. I'm pretty sure the Northerners would have escorted their princess gladly to Riverrun, and Elmar Frey would have behaved as well ;-).

So it's her own fault that she is forced to kill this sentry and trick her 'friends' into risking their lives for the prospect to end up as servants in Riverrun instead of Harrenhal. Great. Where Gendry and Hot Pie are right now, they are as much in danger as among the Bloody Mummers. Being a follower of Lady Stoneheart is as bad for your health than it is for your soul. And Hot Pie might easily end up in crow cage or a at a tree as well, being the servant of a pair of outlaws.

And if they had gotten to Riverrun alive and well, Hot Pie and Gendry would now be on the road again, as the Blackfish most likely would either have thrown them out of the castle when the siege began (with all the other smallfolk), or they would have been thrown out when Genna and Emmon took over Riverrun after Jaime ended the siege.

[DurararaFTW]

But you're applying modern morality based on and assuming a modern, normative environment. Arya can't just go home or look for an adult to help or even just dial 911. It's not that simple in her situation. You're taking standards that work in the safety of suburbia in our modern world and applying them to people at the center of a massive war in a world where people do things like rape and murder children regularly, and it's called politics.

Yes, and even by their system, Arya falls way out of the norm, even if this allows her to survive. It's not the fact that she needs to do these thigs that I'm denying. It's the fact that she's capable of these things at all, that I take issue with. Becomes nobody else her age would be, regardless of time period or whatever.

Rickon, Bran, Tommen, Myrcella, Lommy Greenhands, little Robert, Genrdy, Hot Pie, Joffrey, Sansa, hell if you ask me even Robb and Jon would probably die if they were put in her situation. So good for her that's she the way she is... But that doesn't change that she is who she is: A murderer, and for 9-10 year old, a pretty damn callous one and that.

[Free Northman]

Yes, and even by their system, Arya falls way out of the norm, even if this allows her to survive. It's not the fact that she needs to do these thigs that I'm denying. It's the fact that she's capable of these things at all, that I take issue with. Becomes nobody else her age would be, regardless of time period or whatever.

Rickon, Bran, Tommen, Myrcella, Lommy Greenhands, little Robert, Genrdy, Hot Pie, Joffrey, Sansa, hell if you ask me even Robb and Jon would probably die if they were put in her situation. So good for her that's she the way she is... But that doesn't change that she is who she is: A murderer, and for 9-10 year old, a pretty damn callous one and that.

Without issuing judgement on her actions, I can only say that if Arya wasn't unique in this way she wouldn't be worth reading about.