[BOOK SPOILERS] Season 2 will be the most expensive, if done right.

[Anomandaris86]

I keep thinking about all the things that happen in book 2 as opposed to book 3, and it occured to me that most of the fighting is already done by book 3. So, we originally had five kings fighting. Renly is dead, so nothing there. Stannis has been defeated and just sits on Dragonstone for half the book and then disappears, only to show up at the Wall at the end of the book. The situation in the North is pretty much stable as well with the ironborn staying where they are. The Lannisters are also pretty much done fighting. The only one who still does some fighting is Robb, when he takes that one Lannister castle (the Golden Tooth, I think?) and gets that woman pregnant. Also perhaps the failed attack on Duskendale. We hear Roose Bolton give the order at the end of book 2 but I think the event actually happens in book 3. Robb might have done more but of course that was all cut short by the Red Wedding. So things have already wound down quite a bit in Westeros compared to book 2. The only exception is Dany's story, which is actually revving up.

So, as far as battles go (which are the most expensive thing) we have Dany's storyline, the fighting at the Wall, the taking of the Golden Tooth and perhaps Duskendale. By contrast, book 2 gives us numerous large battles between the Starks and the Lannisters (and I do hope they show some of Robb's western campaign) including Edmure "bloodying Tywin's nose" which has to be shown for plot reasons, the ironborn taking Moat Cailin and other northern settlements, Ramsay Snow's betrayal and fighting all those northmen outside Winterfell, and of course the Battle of the Blackwater. So I hope they approve a bigger budget for season 2, as that's the one that really needs it. Hopefully if ratings keep climbing that's what will happen.

[Prankster]

Even in terms of battles, I disagree: the only one in S2 we really HAVE to see is the battle of the Blackwater, and that takes place at night, on the water, amongst blazing ships and lots and lots of smoke, so I'm of the opinion they can do that without blowing their budget for the season (watch the climax of Gangs of New York to get a sense of what I'm talking about). I'm sure it'll be an expensive action setpiece, but it doesn't have to be LOTR.

Whereas the battle at the Wall at the end of book 3 doesn't just take place in broad daylight, it features a massive army which includes special-effecty creatures like mammoths and giants. And that, of course, is the thing that'll REALLY drive up the cost of S3. There's also Dany's battle, which involves dragons, and the Fist of the First Men, which you seem to have forgotten about entirely, and which is where we get our White Walker fix. The Fist is one of the most elaborate battles of the series, actually.

[Anomandaris86]

Okay I'd forgotten about some of those things. But I disagree about the Battle of the Blackwater being the only thing needed. At least, if the show doesn't want to be super-lame.

[Padraig]

Okay I'd forgotten about some of those things. But I disagree about the Battle of the Blackwater being the only thing needed. At least, if the show doesn't want to be super-lame.

Sorry but we are not going to see most of those battles in S2. We might see more of Robb but they wouldn't focus on his battles (except perhaps a very brief flash). Robb took the Crag in aCoK. Moat Cailin and Duskendale weren't in the books, no reason to have them in the TV series given the budget. They'll presumably show Edmure's battle the same way it was shown in the books, via Catelyn.

They'll show the battle at Winterfell alright. Bits of it anyhow but it was quite a small battle really. The only big scale battle they'll have to worry about is Blackwater.

[End of Disc One]

I agree with the TC...the Battle of the Blackwater would be the most expensive sequence of the series by far if done right.

[DurararaFTW]

If the War of the Kings in War of the Kings is entirely hearsay then yes it would be effing lame. What's the point of even uing a visual medium if we're still just only ever gonna hear Catelyn talk about it? But nevertheless, what's gonna blow the budget is CGI dragons that'll we will see all the time starting end of season 1.

And i disagree that Fist of the First Men is one of the most elaborate battles in the series. Less then three hundred guys against fewer still shadowy figures? The Siege on Winterfell had more people then that. The Siege on the wall had more people then that. The Siege of King's landing had more people then that. The company that is attacked at the Fist will probably be cut down severely anyway, since we're gonna watch them travel all season anyway.

[NW Deserter]

I'm okay with season 3 having less big battles than season 2. Then they can pour the budget into the siege of the Wall and have it be freakin' epic. :thumbsup:

[Xenophon]

If the War of the Kings in War of the Kings is entirely hearsay then yes it would be effing lame. What's the point of even uing a visual medium if we're still just only ever gonna hear Catelyn talk about it? But nevertheless, what's gonna blow the budget is CGI dragons that'll we will see all the time starting end of season 1.

And i disagree that Fist of the First Men is one of the most elaborate battles in the series. Less then three hundred guys against fewer still shadowy figures? The Siege on Winterfell had more people then that. The Siege on the wall had more people then that. The Siege of King's landing had more people then that. The company that is attacked at the Fist will probably be cut down severely anyway, since we're gonna watch them travel all season anyway.

Yeah, I'm assuming they are going to show more of Robb's battle than we get in the books.

I think what Prankster had in mind was that the fight at the Fist of the First Men is the sort of battle where you don't have a particularly convenient ways to frame the scene to cut down on expense. With the siege of Winterfell, for example, you've got nice walls to limit each shot, and you can keep cutting back and forth between various shots to suggest the scope of the action. The Fist of the First Men is supposed to be a hill with good visibility all round, and it will be important to give the viewers a good sense of the overall shape of the battle for them to appreciate the odds (think of the crane shots beloved by zombie movies). I don't know how expensive it would really be, but I can see that it would present some unique problems, since its particularly important for viewers to get a sense of this battle as a whole.

I'm most interested in seeing how they show the battle of the Blackwater. That could get ridiculously expensive if they actually shot on ships.

[Hyper]

Doesn't the Dany storyline in ASOS *alone* consist of her conquering THREE cities? (well conquering two and freeing the slaves of Astapor in a giant battle).

No, season 3 (if ASOS only) will be the most complex and expensive season to date.

[Prankster]

I think what Prankster had in mind was that the fight at the Fist of the First Men is the sort of battle where you don't have a particularly convenient ways to frame the scene to cut down on expense.

Yes, exactly. That, and it takes up a big chunk of page (and, presumably, screen) time, much as the Battle of Blackwater and the fight on the Wall. I honestly think they should devote most of an episode to that, especially since, at that point, the viewers are going to be panting for more White Walker action, and this is where that pays off.

[Padraig]

If the War of the Kings in War of the Kings is entirely hearsay then yes it would be effing lame. What's the point of even uing a visual medium if we're still just only ever gonna hear Catelyn talk about it?

Then its going to be lame. Might as well accept that now and decide whether you want to keep watching. :)

The producers have never pretended they were going to spend lots of money on battle scenes. Battle scenes are not why they decided to make this TV show. If you want to see battle scenes, there are tons of movies out there with battle scenes.

Its actually possible that they will show the Fist at the end of S2. Or the beginning of the battle. It would be a nice cliffhanger. I do agree that its not a huge battle.

Yeah, I'm assuming they are going to show more of Robb's battle than we get in the books.

Why? Where is there any suggestion that we'll see more battles? You are just setting yourself up for disappointment.

I don't know how expensive it would really be, but I can see that it would present some unique problems, since its particularly important for viewers to get a sense of this battle as a whole.

Its not really important IMO. The fact that the NW was overwhelmed is the important part. Showing how they were overwhelmed is less so.

[Xenophon]

Why? Where is there any suggestion that we'll see more battles? You are just setting yourself up for disappointment.

Not necessarily battles, but Robb riding around with his troops, etc. I have no knowledge of this, I'm merely assuming based on what makes sense for a translation from book to screen. It's analogous to the role of Doreah(?). In the books, we hear about her having sex off-screen, but it was pretty easy to guess that HBO would move some of that on-screen. If you're making a fantasy series about a civil war, you're going to want to show some of that action on screen.

[Lord Varys]

No one cares about Robb's western campaigns. That would be 'There is a castle', 'Great, lets take it', 'Okay'.

The core story lines of the second book are Tyrion, Theon, Davos/Stannis, Bran, Sansa, and Arya. We don't need a deep inside into Riverrun (all the Cat chapters), nor don't we see all that much about Renly. That guy is a distraction. A knight of the summer who does not make it beyond episode 5, I expect.

And the way they portray Robb right now, I'm pretty sure they don't set him up as a major character. We are going to see parts of his story, yes, but we all know what happens to him, so he does not need to be elaborated more than he was in the book.

I really want them to show us the Greyjoys in all their glory (meaning Balon, Aeron, Asha, and Victarion!), and I want a vivid living Dragonstone, and not just the core crew Stannis, Melisandre, and Davos. Both the Greyjoys and Stannis are going to survive ASoS - they are important characters of the future volumes, and they should be treated as such.

[Xenophon]

No one cares about Robb's western campaigns. That would be 'There is a castle', 'Great, lets take it', 'Okay'.

In general I agree, but I bet they're going to want to show Robb and Jenny(?), and for that to work, they'll want to show him get wounded. So that's one Robb on campaign bit for season 2, and in season 3 I think they'll almost certainly going to want to show the Battle of the Whispering Wood.

[Anomandaris86]

Doesn't the Dany storyline in ASOS *alone* consist of her conquering THREE cities? (well conquering two and freeing the slaves of Astapor in a giant battle).

Well, the first city is just more of a slaughter as she sets the Unsullied loose. They could cut as they poor into the city just like how it happens in the book, and I think it would be fine. I believe the second was a battle. The third involved sneaking into the city through the sewers (I think) and conquering through that route. Still expensive but not like three big battles.

Its actually possible that they will show the Fist at the end of S2.

I was thinking this too. I believe it occurs concurrently with the end events in that book in other places. In fact it's already described in the first Sam chapter in book 3 as a flashback. This would also be a good way of bringing the Night's Watch plotline to a close for that season. IMO it would be better from a narrative standpoint if it happened at the end of season 2.

No one cares about Robb's western campaigns. That would be 'There is a castle', 'Great, lets take it', 'Okay'.

No. It's actually where the largest share of fighting of the War of Five Kings takes place. It would be ludicrous not to show any of it. Also we get to see Robb and Tywin against each other, apparently two great tacticians duking it out. And he never lost a battle; and rather than just hearing that all the time it would be nice if we could actually SEE him performing well as a tactician.

If they don't show any of his battles, they need to AT LEAST show him planning/devising strategies with his generals on the field. And of course we need to see Edmure's fight against Tywin because that leads to him turning around and going to King's Landing instead.

And the way they portray Robb right now, I'm pretty sure they don't set him up as a major character. We are going to see parts of his story, yes, but we all know what happens to him, so he does not need to be elaborated more than he was in the book.

We all know what happened to Ned too.

[Hyper]

No. It's actually where the largest share of fighting of the War of Five Kings takes place. It would be ludicrous not to show any of it.

Just as ludicrous as GRRM not including it in ASOS? It would be nice to see, but you can't say it is ludicrous to exclude without also calling the same in the novel.

If they don't show any of his battles, they need to AT LEAST show him planning/devising strategies with his generals on the field. And of course we need to see Edmure's fight against Tywin because that leads to him turning around and going to King's Landing instead.

Why do they "they need to AT LEAST" show it if it was not included in the novel? Again, a nice to have, but there is no need for it. The same applies to the Edmure/Tywin battle, of course.

It's really amazing that people 'demand' to see scenes that were not played out in the books.

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

In season 3 you have Dany conquering 3 cities, although i don't remember any on feild action as far as dany herself goes. You also have the fight at the Fist of the First men,Battle at the wall. the CGI is going to run the cost up in that. You have undead warriors, Dany's dragons and all sorts of beast at the Wall.

I think that the battle at Winterfell can be done like the Battles in season 1, since it's not a huge battle really.Blackwater is where most of the budget might go to, since it involves so many people.

I heard somewhere they plan to focus more on robb in season two than he was focused on in the book, don't know if that includes battle scenes or not.

[Anomandaris86]

Just as ludicrous as GRRM not including it in ASOS? It would be nice to see, but you can't say it is ludicrous to exclude without also calling the same in the novel.

Why do they "they need to AT LEAST" show it if it was not included in the novel? Again, a nice to have, but there is no need for it. The same applies to the Edmure/Tywin battle, of course.

It's really amazing that people 'demand' to see scenes that were not played out in the books.

The books are told from a unique POV structure that won't allow all important things to be shown. The TV series has already done away with that and is simply showing everything from a non-preferential standpoint. And this is how it should be, as this plays to the strengths of film as opposed to books. For them to film it that way and then suddenly switch back to "book POV" perspectives when it's time for a battle would be hypocrisy, even if it's hypocrisy done in the name of budget.

@REID1990: I remember them saying that too. That probably means I have nothing to worry about.

[Black Sheep]

Just as ludicrous as GRRM not including it in ASOS? It would be nice to see, but you can't say it is ludicrous to exclude without also calling the same in the novel.

Why do they "they need to AT LEAST" show it if it was not included in the novel? Again, a nice to have, but there is no need for it. The same applies to the Edmure/Tywin battle, of course.

It's really amazing that people 'demand' to see scenes that were not played out in the books.

In books there's not much difference between having a character report a battle and having the narrator describe a battle - the reader still has a lot of imagining to do...

In a visual medium, it will be too much tiresome and non-exciting to hear report after report of off-screen campaigns, when we can show them. I understand, there can't be too elaborate scenes due to budgetary restrictions, and even major battles that did appear in the novels will be downplayed, but even a little glimpse will help to set the atmosphere in Westeros.

Without it, we can just as much have a very expensive audiobook production...

[Black Sheep]

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