Thefalconemperor Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 No, I mean, for real. Do you guys have idea in how long it took for mankind to sucessfully melt and work with gold? Not an easy task by any means. Even nowadays you need at least to get an industrial torch to successfully manage it.And the mighty khal took a stewing pot out of the fire, threw a supposdly pure gold medallion at it and managed to melt the thing to give Viserys an examplary death for going mad at the murder of his entire family.Has Martin ever been questioned about it? Or you should be careful not to drop your gold ring in the stew, in Westeros? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Été Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 No, I mean, for real. Do you guys have idea in how long it took for mankind to sucessfully melt and work with gold? Not an easy task by any means. Even nowadays you need at least to get an industrial torch to successfully manage it.And the mighty khal took a stewing pot out of the fire, threw a supposdly pure gold medallion at it and managed to melt the thing to give Viserys an examplary death for going mad at the murder of his entire family.Has Martin ever been questioned about it? Or you should be careful not to drop your gold ring in the stew, in Westeros?Humans have been working gold for thousands of years. The oldest gold jewellery dates back to at least 4000 BCE, that's around the time people started creating permanent settlements, farming and domesticating animals.Assuming human civilisation developed along a trajectory roughly equivalent to ours, there's no reason why a society like the Dothraki couldn't have learn to smelt gold - or if nothing else learn it from a more settled society e.g. Free Cities, Slaver's Bay, Valyria. But if you're concerned about the chemistry/physics of it, well, the get-out clause would be 'magic'. Works for the seasons and genetics apparently... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenophon Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 No, I mean, for real. Do you guys have idea in how long it took for mankind to sucessfully melt and work with gold? Not an easy task by any means. Even nowadays you need at least to get an industrial torch to successfully manage it.And the mighty khal took a stewing pot out of the fire, threw a supposdly pure gold medallion at it and managed to melt the thing to give Viserys an examplary death for going mad at the murder of his entire family.Has Martin ever been questioned about it? Or you should be careful not to drop your gold ring in the stew, in Westeros?He does put the pot back on the fire, but yeah, those are some mighty hot cooking fires the Dothraki use. Or maybe his "gold" medallions really were some sort of cheap alloy--after all, he doesn't seem like a particularly savvy businessman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueMetis Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 The melting point of gold is pretty high, but to get it to the point of being malleable it would take significantly less heat. I can't recall what it said in the book but I don't think it was actually melted to the point of being liquid.Or you know it could just be that GRRM isn't a chemist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iheartseverus Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 I'm not a chemist, but I am a potter, and I've melted gold in my kiln--IIRC, the melting point is around 1900 degrees. I guess my point being that if they have pottery in GRRM's world (and obviously, they do), then they can have melted gold, since the firing temp is nearly exactly the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AquariumDrinker Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 I don't recall the description of the fire, but gold melts at around 2k Fahrenheit and a bonfire can get to 2.2k Fahrenheit. A campfire can get to around 1.5k Fahrenheit I also saw this link with a quick search:melting gold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inkasrain Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 The melting point of gold is pretty high, but to get it to the point of being malleable it would take significantly less heat. I can't recall what it said in the book but I don't think it was actually melted to the point of being liquid.Yeah, I think the description in the book is that the medallions were starting to lose their shape and become runny. I have no idea if this is any more possible chemically, but Viserys wasn't crowned with liquid gold.Or maybe his "gold" medallions really were some sort of cheap alloy--after all, he doesn't seem like a particularly savvy businessman.Aww, poor Viserys. Can't even get killed with real gold, Drogo uses the cheap knockoff on him! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueMetis Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 Yeah, I think the description in the book is that the medallions were starting to lose their shape and become runny. I have no idea if this is any more possible chemically, but Viserys wasn't crowned with liquid gold.I can't say I know, gold is a pretty soft metal so it could start to do that at lower temperatures but that sounds like it is pretty close to the melting point. Unfortunately there wasn't much gold in my highschool metal shop or I would know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OctopusArms Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 Supposedly, the Roman generals Manius Aquillius and Marcus Licinius Crassus were killed by having molten gold poured down their throats. Aquillius by Mithridates of Pontus in 88BC and Crassus by the Parthians in 53. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrimTuesday Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 A large, hot fire would be more than enough to melt gold to the point that it could start to melt, especially is it wasn't pure gold. It is possible that it is a different alloy of gold, which can have a considerably lower melting point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iheartseverus Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 Supposedly, the Roman generals Manius Aquillius and Marcus Licinius Crassus were killed by having molten gold poured down their throats. Aquillius by Mithridates of Pontus in 88BC and Crassus by the Parthians in 53.As I mentioned, any society that can make pottery can melt gold. I've melted it myself in my pottery kiln. Gold's melting point is 1934 F., the same exact 'curing' temperature of earthenware clay becoming ceramic. Ancient Rome had kilns, as did China, Egypt, Babylon, etc. There's lots of pottery all over GRRM's world, so presumably they have kilns, too. Though I don't specifically know that about the Dothraki, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yarl Snow Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 The melting point of gold 1337.33 K, 1064.18 °C, 1947.52 °F.From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GoldTypical temperatures of fires and flames Oxyhydrogen flame: 2000 °C or above (3600 °F)[7]Bunsen burner flame: 1,300 to 1,600 °C (2,400 to 2,900 °F)[8]Blowtorch flame: 1,300 °C (2,400 °F)[9]Candle flame: 1,000 °C (1,800 °F)From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FireI'd say if a candle can almost melt gold, then a pot placed on a campfire could easily melt it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jurble Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 No, I mean, for real. Do you guys have idea in how long it took for mankind to sucessfully melt and work with gold?Gold is easy-mode. Even the Incas and Aztecs, who otherwise were using Stone-Age based tools, had awesome gold-working ability. 2k Fahrenheit is nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fearsome Fred Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 The question is not whether the ancients had the tech to create motlen gold. Of course they did. The question is whether the portrait of Viserys' death, in aGoT makes sense. I'm no expert, but it seems to me it does not.You cannot melt gold by putting it in an ordinary stew pot over an ordinary cooking fire. Or, as Gandalf told Frodo, "Your small fire, of course, would not melt even ordinary gold." If you could get fire and the iron pot on it hot enough, the iron pot would be glowing bright yellow. The sides and handle of the pot might be a little cooler, but I strongly suspect that if you tried to grab the handle of the pot with horsehair mittens, your mittens would burst instantly into flame.Of course, maybe Drogo's "gold" medallion was merely made of painted lead. Poor dumb barbarian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steel_Wind Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 Psst: 800 foot tall walls of ice aren't exactly solid on the physics side either.It's a book. As a dramatic moment? It works great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galen M Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 You cannot melt gold by putting it in an ordinary stew pot over an ordinary cooking fire. Or, as Gandalf told Frodo, "Your small fire, of course, would not melt even ordinary gold." Well, Balon Greyjoy had no trouble melting Theon's gold necklace in a similar fire. Iron melts at 1536 C, gold at 1063. However, gold is a very soft metal, so it will become malleable enough to "crown" drogo, long before iron will even start to glow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueMetis Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 I remember melting silver in an ordinary wood fire when I was younger, and it only takes about 100 degrees more to melt gold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seerow Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 If it bugs you that much you're free to risk your own gold to prove it wrong.Otherwise just accept it's closer to the line of realism than many other things in the book and that it makes a great dramatic moment as written. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jem Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 I am willing to buy that Drogo melted (or semi-melted) gold (or some sort of other metal) over a cookfire. However, how long would such a thing take? I don't recall exactly how long it took from the moment Drogo tossed his belt into the pot to the moment he dumped the pot on Viserys's head, but it seemed pretty quick to me. Even if the pot was extraordinarily hot, the metal still would have needed time to heat and become semi-liquid. It just seemed to quick to me. Still I am willing to buy it, just because it makes and awesome, gruesome death! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aktarian Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 Drogo poured out what was in the pot first (a soup or something like that) so a pot was already heated to certain degree. This could shave a couple of minutes from the process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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