How did Drogo melt gold?

[Fearsome Fred]

No, they would smolder on contact, and with prolonged contact ignite and stop being in any way insulating.

If you like. They would smoulder first and THEN burst into flame. At temperatures close to those necessary to melt gold, I imagine the process would occur quite quickly.

[Fearsome Fred]

This is pretty pointless. I mean, it's a work of FANTASY.

It is already understood that many will not be interested in the topic of this particular discussion. I suggest you find another thread that interests you more.

[Fearsome Fred]

I beg to disagree.

Gold melts at 1063 deg. C, and an ordinary cooking fire burns at temperatures between 1100 and 1200 deg. C, normally indicated by their orange flames.

The iron pot is more than capable of handling those temperatures, and transferring the heat to the gold.

You are confusing the temperature of the flame itself with the temperature of a distinct object separated from the flame by a barrier of metal. As the gold absorbs heat from the iron, it is also radiating heat into the atmosphere. At some point it will radiate faster than it absorbs.

Per the same source, a candle flame burns yellow at 1800F. But water boils at 212F. Do you think it is easy to boil an egg with a candle?

As for the heat transfering abilities of iron: Yes, it can transfer that heat, not only from the bottom of the pot to the gold, but also to the sides of the pot, and ultimately to the handles. The entire pot will be glowing hot by the time the gold melts (assuming it ever does).

Incidentally, I cannot see where you have shown that "an ordinary cooking fire" burns at temperatures between 1100 and 1200 deg. C. In my experience, an ordinary campfire glows red, which, per your wikipedia article, implies lower temperatures.

[Fearsome Fred]

Would you care to show us some proof? The only semi-scientific material, the Wikipedia entry, seems to support the idea that it CAN be done.

As it was said, in the book it was probably not a small fire (as in the TV show), but instead a huge one, cooking food for thousands of dothraki.

As I already explained to others above, the Wikipedia article says no such thing. But if you are looking for "semi-scientific material", you may find the following article helpful:

A Short History of Metals

By

Alan W. Cramb

http://neon.mems.cmu.edu/cramb/Processing/history.html

Please note especially, from the section on Copper:

"Malachite, a green friable stone, was the source of copper in the early smelters. Originally it was thought that the smelting of copper was [discovered] by chance dropping of malachite into campfires. However, campfire temperatures are normally in the region of 600-650 C, whereas, 700-800 C is necessary for reduction. It is more probable that early copper smelting was discovered by ancient potters whose clay firing furnaces could reach temperatures of 1100-1200 C. If Malachite was added to these furnaces copper nodules would easily be found."

So Cramb does not think campfires are likely to reduce Malachite into Copper, because they are unlikely to reach the required temperature of 700-800 C. Presumably he would find it even less likely that a campfire could reach 1064°C., which is the melting point of gold.

[Fearsome Fred]

The melting point of gold

1337.33 K, 1064.18 °C, 1947.52 °F.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold

Typical temperatures of fires and flames

• Oxyhydrogen flame: 2000 °C or above (3600 °F)^[7]
• Bunsen burner flame: 1,300 to 1,600 °C (2,400 to 2,900 °F)^[8]
• Blowtorch flame: 1,300 °C (2,400 °F)^[9]
• Candle flame: 1,000 °C (1,800 °F)

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire

I'd say if a candle can almost melt gold, then a pot placed on a campfire could easily melt it.

Another mistake being made here, about a candle flame, is the assumption that it is cooler than other flames. Actually, a candle is a particularly intense, bright, hot flame - which is why it is so effective for illumination.

A wood fire will put out more heat energy than a candle. But this is because the flames are much larger, and much more numerous, than the single, tiny, intense candle flame. It is not because the flames themselves are hotter.

[Early Earl]

Wow. 4 pages about that topic and I read them all.

Still half-way through the thread I was inclined to write something along the lines of "get your hands on a copy of ADwD". But actually I did find it interesting so, fwiw, my conclusion:

1.) The scene described in the book does not fit to the laws of physics we know.

2.) Given more interest in those matters,GRRM could've written a scene to the same outcome, that would've been correctly.

3.) Only few (compared to the vast number of readers) realized the inaccuracy of the scene, so most readers were not spoiled in their fun of reading the book (or watching the show).

So, now back to reading Dance, with special care to any chemical processes described. :leaving:

P.S.: If anyone happens to get the chance to ask GRRM about it, give me a note, pls (seriously: because it was implied in here somewhere, that Tolkien did research on that topic - so my curiosity is more along the lines of what an author researches and what he doesn't). TY and have fun ...

[Doughbelly]

How do you know gold melts at the same exact temperature and

fire burns at the same exact temperature in an imaginery world filled with

dragons, 7 year long seasons, blood magic, Others, zombies ,

wargs, and 700 foot magic-infused walls ( all things different than our world ) ???

Which fundamental, universal physical constant would you like to start altering first?

It's a good point, and I suspect that Vaes Dothrak would be well stocked for charcoal at least.

As for dung - that's actually very likely; best research I can find (google + 2-3 minutes) doesn't give me a burning temperature; but joules per gram is slightly less than wood (17k as opposed to 20k); which just means you need more of it, doesn't really tell us how hot it burns

You still need wood to make charcoal. Horse poo is the single most abundant fuel source if you're a steppes nomad.

I don't know about the burning temperature of horse dung specifically, but I know cow dung is at least 600C; I've Macgyvered porous carbon/ceramic drinking water filters using river clay and coffee grounds, fired in a shallow cow patty fire pit. I'm not enough of a dung fire expert to really know, but in my experience horse dung burns a lot faster than cow poo, though it depends on dryness. And I suppose diet would affect it, too.

As far as dung fire go, horse poo is definitely the nicest smelling.

Nepalese kami use yak dung in their forges, though that's a different situation from an open fire.

[Rakka]

Something to consider: electrum is an alloy of gold, silver and sometimes copper that was frequently called gold. Copper was added to the alloy to make the melting point lower to make for easier casting of coins and such. So, not that unlikely that the coin belt was not pure gold but some gold-rich electrum variant. I've tried to find information about its melting point but all I get is "varies by content" with no examples or range of melting temperature.

[spitsphyre]

One of the things everyone seems to be forgetting is that they were not in a traveling tent, they were not on the road, they were in the one city held by the Dothraki. This was a huge occasion and they were using a structure that had no roof. This was a feast for all three kahlasars at the city at that point. The scene in the books plays out vastly different than it does on the show.

I say this because these were no mere cooking fires, the book describes it

The silk tenting that roofed Kahl Drogo's hall had been rolled up tonight, the moon followed them inside. Flames leapt ten feet in the air from three huge, stone-lined firepits.

So comparing these to a campfire or a smaller cooking fire for an army is pointless.

I think it's been demonstrated through cursory internet searches that a large fire could conceivably melt the gold used in a medallion belt. It's extremely rare to see something small made of pure gold, not because of the expense but because the metal is so soft that it doesn't work well for carving on its own. I think it's fair to assume that the "gold medallions" were actually an alloy of some kind based on that alone.

Further the book just says

Drogo tossed the belt in and watched without expression as medallions turned red and began to lose their shape.

and

When the gold was half-melted and starting to run...

Would the gold turn red? I don't know, I will accept that as artistic entitlement but I think the fact that the gold was just starting to be liquid like is enough to say that yes, even on a smaller fire than the ones presented in the books this is possible.

However, I think without the details from the books themselves other posters proved that it's possible though (as someone else said) it's not easy.

[Zeke]

Just a point to ponder: the size of the fire doesn't have anything to do with the temperature that fire can reach. That's determined by the fuel being burned. A larger fire can transfer more heat because more energy is given off and, consequently, can more effectively and more quickly transfer that heat to, for instance, a kettle filled with gold. However, if the fuel being burned doesn't burn sufficiently hot it won't melt whatever it is you want melted no matter how much of it you burn.

[blasted_saber]

The very idea you are questioning the ability of those in ASOIF to melt gold when they used a piece of gold jewellery for said task is crazy. Its not as if they are all wearing unrefined rocks straight out of the ground.

[Bastard of Varys]

Aww, poor Viserys. Can't even get killed with real gold, Drogo uses the cheap knockoff on him!

It was 60% pyrite, 30% lead, 5% copper, and 5% zinc. It is known. :cheers:

[Fearsome Fred]

The very idea you are questioning the ability of those in ASOIF to melt gold when they used a piece of gold jewellery for said task is crazy. Its not as if they are all wearing unrefined rocks straight out of the ground.

In ancient times, much gold jewelry was made of unrefined gold - specifically of a naturally occurring gold-silver alloy called "electrum". But I agree that there is no need to assume Drogo's medallion is a natural alloy.

[Fearsome Fred]

Something to consider: electrum is an alloy of gold, silver and sometimes copper that was frequently called gold. Copper was added to the alloy to make the melting point lower to make for easier casting of coins and such. So, not that unlikely that the coin belt was not pure gold but some gold-rich electrum variant. I've tried to find information about its melting point but all I get is "varies by content" with no examples or range of melting temperature.

This link may help:

http://www.buzzle.com/articles/melting-point-of-gold.html

Specifically, it says that the gold alloy which it calls "14k yellow gold" can have a melting point as low as 829C (1524F). Per Wikipedia, 14k yellow gold is 58% gold, with the rest being typically equal parts copper and silver.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colored_gold

Note that these are still extremely high temperatures - too high to be grabbing at with horsehair mittens. The entire pot would be glowing orange or bright red.

For the scene described in the book to be plausible, I think that medallion would really have to be made mostly of lead.

[Justinian]

In ancient times, much gold jewelry was made of unrefined gold - specifically of a naturally occurring gold-silver alloy called "electrum".

The weird part is that electrum was a mixture of gold and silver but was worth more than gold, so that you could make money by mixing your gold and silver together to make electrum. Greedy dwarfs...

[spitsphyre]

Just a point to ponder: the size of the fire doesn't have anything to do with the temperature that fire can reach. That's determined by the fuel being burned. A larger fire can transfer more heat because more energy is given off and, consequently, can more effectively and more quickly transfer that heat to, for instance, a kettle filled with gold. However, if the fuel being burned doesn't burn sufficiently hot it won't melt whatever it is you want melted no matter how much of it you burn.

The reason I brought up the size was the people were saying things like "a mere cooking fire" and things of that nature. If the fires are that big I don't think they are mere anythings. And as I said later, I think there has been sufficient research done to say that this is plausible if not altogether likely.

The very idea you are questioning the ability of those in ASOIF to melt gold when they used a piece of gold jewellery for said task is crazy. Its not as if they are all wearing unrefined rocks straight out of the ground.

Yes.

[Black Crow]

Not being particularly scientific I won't argue about melting points although the suggestion that Drogo's "gold" may have been impure enough to melt quicker isn't a bad one and I agree the overlooked fact that it was done in a proper (royal) fire pit in town makes charcoal more likely than dung and again speeds the process.

As to the gloves, they sound like oven gloves/mittens to me, which would easily allow for them being leather with a horse-hair insulating layer rather than simply knitted or felted horsehair.

And finally, knowing GRRM's interest in matters Scottish, he may have been aware of the story of the blacksmith who betrayed Kildrummy Castle to Edward 1 in return for gold only to have it melted and poured down his throat.

[Fearsome Fred]

The reason I brought up the size was the people were saying things like "a mere cooking fire" and things of that nature. If the fires are that big I don't think they are mere anythings.

You do not seem to understand that this objection has already been addressed.

Firstly, one does not use a huge bonfire or a forge as a cooking fire. It is far too hot, far too dangerous, far too inconvenient to the cook, and it will boil away the stew far too fast. Either it is too big and hot to be a practical cooking fire for a normal sized iron stew pot, or it is too small and cool to melt gold. Either way, it makes no sense.

And as I said later, I think there has been sufficient research done to say that this is plausible if not altogether likely.

It is quite impossible. One does not stick ones hands into the middle of a huge bonfire to pull a glowing red-hot iron pot out of the hottest part of the flames, with no other protection than horsehair mittens. Your horsehair mittens will burn, your hands will burn, and (assuming that you manage to get close enough to grab it at all) you will drop the red hot iron pot, and spill the molten gold on your foot.

If it is not a "mere cooking fire", then why does Drogo act as though that's exactly what it is?

[spitsphyre]

You do not seem to understand that this objection has already been addressed.

Firstly, one does not use a huge bonfire or a forge as a cooking fire. It is far too hot, far too dangerous, far too inconvenient to the cook, and it will boil away the stew far too fast. Either it is too big and hot to be a practical cooking fire for a normal sized iron pot, or it is too small and cool to melt gold. Either way, it makes no sense.

I don't think this is the problem you're saying it is. Being that it's fiction and not reality it's ok to take liberties with the cooking (and I don't just mean speculative fiction, I mean fiction in general) Maybe there's a whole elaborate cooking structure to make this work that wasn't described because it wasn't important. Or maybe there isn't. But the temperatures you've been putting out seem to be contradictory to the temperatures nearly everyone else has been uncovering so...

It is quite impossible. One does not stick ones hands into the middle of a huge bonfire to pull a glowing red-hot iron pot out of the hottest part of the flames, with no other protection than horsehair mittens. Your horsehair mittens will burn, your hands will burn, and (assuming that you manage to get close enough to grab it at all) you will drop the iron pot, and spill the molten gold on your foot.

Except people have posed a ton of ways in which this IS possible. I feel that, at this point, you're just arguing to argue. You keep repeating things, people continue to disagree with you, even going as far as bringing up other facts that you dismiss out of hand. It's a pretty minor detail, not that I haven't been hung up on minor details before but this is one that CAN be easily explained.

[Fearsome Fred]

But the temperatures you've been putting out seem to be contradictory to the temperatures nearly everyone else has been uncovering so...

I don't think so. Perhaps you should explain what you mean, if you understand it (which apparently you don't).

Except people have posed a ton of ways in which this IS possible.

They have tried to argue it, yes. But their arguments don't fit the facts.

It's a pretty minor detail, not that I haven't been hung up on minor details before but this is one that CAN be easily explained.

Sure, if you ignore the DETAILS of the particular situation described by GRRM, then I agree that it is indeed possible, in a general sense, to melt gold. But the devil is in the details, and the details here do not work.