Cersei vs. Catelyn: Who is worse for their family?

[Chirios]

Except she didn't. War was already inevitable; her capture of Tyrion just gave Tywin an excuse to invade the Riverlands, and she couldn't possibly guess that would happen.

Why do you the fact that the war was inevitable means that she didn't start the war?

Tywin wasn't looking to invade the Riverlands, in fact, none of the Lannisters were looking to attack anyone. It was well established that Tywin only attacked the Riverlands in an attempt to capture Ned and force a transfer of hostages, which he wouldn't have needed to do if Catelyn hadn't captured Tyrion. Cersei might have been looking to assassinate the King, but there was no timeframe on that. Once/if Ned found the proof of the conspiracy, he would've told Robert and then there would have been war, but then there wouldn't have been any direct causal link between Catelyn's actions and the beginning of the war.

She couldn't guess that the Riverlands would have been invaded, I'll give you that, but that was one of the moves that Tywin could have employed. The other would be to demand that the King sat in judgement of Tyrion himself, in a fair trial. Then she and Ned would be forced to defend their capturing of the son of a High Lord with no evidence, something that would have been very bad.

People have said that she had no choice but to capture Tyrion, but I don't buy that. Looking at it from her perspective, Tyrion attempted to kill her son, but she has no proof of this, only a dagger which Tyrion could say he lost and a son with amnesia. What is needed, and what was explained by Ned and Littlefinger, is proof of the conspiracy against the throne, then they can tie up Brans attempted murder into that. When Tyrion saw Catelyn in the Inn, he posed no immediate threat, since a quick glance around the room showed her that she had many allies who would have defended her, and he posed no real threat to their overall plan, since her being found is strange, but it is not evidence of any specific thing. Which means that Catelyn's capturing of Tyrion was probably a moment of panic, that she felt threatened not by anything that he could do, but by his mere presence, and felt she needed to gain some sort of control over him.

Catelyn started the war, she started unintentionally, but she did start it. She didn't start it alone, but she played a major part in it's beginning.

[David Selig]

Before Robert was killed, it wasn't really a war, just Tywin trying to lure Ned into a trap by ordering Gregor's raids on the Riverlands and gathering his forces in case things escalate. And Robert's death had nothing to do with Catelyn's arrest of Tyrion, it was caused by Ned's admission to Cercei that he knew about the incest, which made Cercei order Robert's assassination.

[Chirios]

Before Robert was killed, it wasn't really a war, just Tywin trying to lure Ned into a trap by ordering Gregor's raids on the Riverlands and gathering his forces in case things escalate. And Robert's death had nothing to do with Catelyn's arrest of Tyrion, it was caused by Ned's admission to Cercei that he knew about the incest, which made Cercei order Robert's assassination.

Hence why I said: She didn't start it alone, but she played a major part in it's beginning. And it definitely would have escalated, the men of the Riverlands were desperate to march to war anyway, the only difference is the war would have been smaller.

[CatelynFan]

Why do you the fact that the war was inevitable means that she didn't start the war?

Because Cersei was going to assassinate Robert anyway. Catelyn had nothing to do with that.

She couldn't guess that the Riverlands would have been invaded, I'll give you that, but that was one of the moves that Tywin could have employed. The other would be to demand that the King sat in judgement of Tyrion himself, in a fair trial.

Yes, so I think Tywin should be held responsible, don't you? After all, he was the one who chose to attack the Riverlands without demanding that the King sit in judgement of Tyrion himself.

Looking at it from her perspective, Tyrion attempted to kill her son, but she has no proof of this, only a dagger which Tyrion could say he lost and a son with amnesia.

She doesn't think Tyrion himself attempted to kill her son. She believes--and correctly--that the Lannisters tried to kill her son. What she thinks is that Tyrion was in on the plot, that he knows something about it. And she has plenty of proof. She has Lysa's letter directly stating that the Lannisters murdered her husband, and she has no reason to think that Lysa might be lying. She realizes that Jaime was still in the castle during the time that Bran fell. And considering the hatred between Ned and the Lannisters, it is pretty evident that the Lannisters could and would endanger her family.

[Chirios]

Because Cersei was going to assassinate Robert anyway. Catelyn had nothing to do with that.

Was she? It's probably true, but after reading Blood and Gold I'm not sure. It seems more and more like the whole: plot against the King thing was made up wholesale by Littlefinger. Cersei had good reason to want Robert dead, but it appears as though she honestly was just planning to wait it out until Robert got himself killed and Joffrey took the throne. But even if she was, that still doesn't mean that Catelyn didn't play a large part in the war starting as it did. To use a historical example: WW1 was probably inevitable, but that doesn't mean that the assassination of Ferdinand didn't start it though.

Yes, so I think Tywin should be held responsible, don't you? After all, he was the one who chose to attack the Riverlands without demanding that the King sit in judgement of Tyrion himself.

See above. Tywin wouldn't have attacked the Riverlands had Catelyn not arrested Tyrion, and while his attacking the Riverlands is not predictable, his calling the banners and marching to war on someone is.

She doesn't think Tyrion himself attempted to kill her son. She believes--and correctly--that the Lannisters tried to kill her son. What she thinks is that Tyrion was in on the plot, that he knows something about it.

No, she thinks that Tyrion himself tried to kill her son, because Littlefinger told her that the dagger was his. We know she believes it because when she arrested Tyrion she says that he conspired to kill Bran, not anyone else.

And she has plenty of proof. She has Lysa's letter directly stating that the Lannisters murdered her husband, and she has no reason to think that Lysa might be lying. She realizes that Jaime was still in the castle during the time that Bran fell. And considering the hatred between Ned and the Lannisters, it is pretty evident that the Lannisters could and would endanger her family.

That is evidence, not proof. What I meant by proof was something that would stand up in court, and what she has isn't enough to deal with reasonable doubt, which matters in Westeros because when Tyrion was tried they needed Varys to falsify a bunch of payments that he supposedly made to buy poison, and Shae to claim that she had overheard Tyrion and Lady Sansa conspiring together. Lysa's letter is not proof on itself, because Lysa will still need to defend her accusation in court, which Catelyn is not yet sure that she is able to do. Jaime was still in the castle when Bran fell, but so were a lot of people, including a ward who could legitimately have beef with the Starks; and there's the point that Bran could simply have fell. It's true that he didn't fall before, but just because he didn't fall at that time doesn't mean he didn't fall this time, and she has no evidence to suggest that he was pushed since he doesn't remember the incident.

And finally the hatred between Ned and the Lannisters is only one way, and before the events of the book it's not that deep, Ned doesn't like the Lannisters because they entered the war late, the Lannisters don't particularly care about Ned so long as he stays north of the Neck. Ned only really starts hating the Lannisters once he thinks that they're trying to kill his best friend, and that they tried to kill his son, and finally when he sees how malicious Cersei can be. Before that he finds them distasteful, but he doesn't hate them, and they don't particularly hate them.

Catelyn doesn't have anything that proves that Tyrion did not lose his dagger, which he can claim, Catelyn doesn't have anything that proves that the Lannisters are conspiring against the King, she doesn't have anything that proves that the Lannisters pushed Bran out of the window. And that's what she needs to stand up in a trial. Tyrion wanting a trial is predictable, he is the son of a High Lord, it's his prerogative, and if there's going to be a trial there needs to be admissible evidence. Not circumstantial evidence which is all she has, but evidence: 1) of motive 2) of conspiracy, and probably an eye witness to him giving the knife to the assassin or of a Lannister conspiring to kill the king. She doesn't have proof of any of the above and therefore should not have arrested him.

[Maia]

What is needed, and what was explained by Ned and Littlefinger, is proof of the conspiracy against the throne, then they can tie up Brans attempted murder into that. When Tyrion saw Catelyn in the Inn, he posed no immediate threat,

Actually, if the Lannister conspiracy had been real, rather than a combination of LF's frame, unrelated crimes by the Lannisters and unfortunate coincidences, Tyrion would have been a major threat. After all, Lannisters seemingly were really desperate to silence Bran and tried to murder him twice. What would they have thought once they knew that Cat had secretly been to KL? That Bran had woken up and talked, of course.

And how would they have reacted? By moving against Ned ASAP. After all, as far as Cat knew, they have already killed one Hand, so there was no reason to think that they'd balk at anything. Grabbing Cat herself would have been a logical opener, but even if Tyrion didn't try to do that, an attack against Ned and the girls was only to be expected.

In fact, the terrible irony here is that the notion of Lannister conspiracy was very well supported by evidence, as far as such things go in Westeros and _if_ it had been real, then Cat's actions would have been the 100% right reaction.

In fact, I suspect that even as it is, news of Cat having secretly been to KL would have prompted Cersei to action, regardless of Tyrion-napping.

The war was inevitable anyway, as LF was dead set on provoking a Lannister/Stark conflict of some sort in order to improve his position. Petyr was the one who led Ned and IMHO Jon Arryn before him by the nose to the evidence about Cersei's kids bastardy, who stopped Ned from getting out when he had quarreled with Robert and IMHO also the one who convinced Joff to execute Ned and warned Slynt/Payne in advance so that it could happen so quickly that the Cersei wouldn't have a chance to interfere.

[Chirios]

Actually, if the Lannister conspiracy had been real, rather than a combination of LF's frame, unrelated crimes by the Lannisters and unfortunate coincidences, Tyrion would have been a major threat. After all, Lannisters seemingly were really desperate to silence Bran and tried to murder him twice. What would they have thought once they knew that Cat had secretly been to KL? That Bran had woken up and talked, of course. And how would they have reacted? By moving against Ned ASAP. After all, as far as Cat knew, they have already killed one Hand, so there was no reason to think that they'd balk at anything. Grabbing Cat herself would have been a logical opener, but even if Tyrion didn't try to do that, an attack against Ned and the girls was only to be expected.

Grabbing Cat would have been impossible. A quick glance around the room showed her that there were many more people in that inn who were loyal to her, or at least her family, than were loyal to Tyrion. You make a good point about how bad it looks that Cat has secretly gone to KL, (which is another reason why she shouldn't have gone but let's not go into that,) but I don't think that it would be logical to conclude that they would immediately attack the Hand. If Bran had woken up and talked, Ned would have gone straight to Robert with that evidence, and since he hasn't, they can conclude that Bran hasn't woken up and talked. It looks suspicious, but as a risk assessment capturing Tyrion is worse, because if Cat captures Tyrion then the Lannisters will definitely move against Ned and the girls, in one way or another, whereas if she doesn't capture Tyrion then the Lannisters might move against Ned and the girls.

[Amae Koromo]

Both of them destroyed the families.

If they didn't screw up so hard, destroying Robert's plan and leading to that war...

Joffrey and Sansa would be married. Robb and Myrcella would be married.

The Lannisters would have the King. The Starks would have the Queen.

Lord Stark would be married to a Lannister girl and the next lords of Winterfell would have Lannister blood.

Both families would be very powerful. And the Iron Throne would get not only the Starks with Sansa, but also the Tullys.

And Cersei screwed up raising Joffrey pretty badly as well, turning him into someone that would most likely end up as one of the worst kings in the history of Westeros had he lived longer.

Chances are, even if she and Catelyn (along with Ned) didn't make all those mistakes leading to the war...

Joffrey would still find a way to screw up and get everyone against him eventually. Such as mistreating Sansa, leading to Robb looking for revenge. And considering Joffrey would most likely already have alienated a bunch of people by them... Robb would most likely get a lot of support.

Considering the way he treated Tommen (and supposing their relationship wouldn't get any better), maybe even Tommen (most likely he would be the Head of the Lannister family in the future) would not support Joffrey.

[Daena the Defiant]

Grabbing Cat would have been impossible. A quick glance around the room showed her that there were many more people in that inn who were loyal to her, or at least her family, than were loyal to Tyrion. You make a good point about how bad it looks that Cat has secretly gone to KL, (which is another reason why she shouldn't have gone but let's not go into that,) but I don't think that it would be logical to conclude that they would immediately attack the Hand.

First of all, no one is saying that they'd abduct Catelyn in full view of the people of that inn; Catelyn's concern that if she allowed herself to be recognized and then she and Tyrion go their separate ways, she and Ser Rodrik could be intercepted on the road (Tyrion was traveling with a full squad of house troops) and end up in a ditch somewhere, or taken a hostage, and then the Lannisters would have intel that the Starks were on the move, thus making them accelerate their already existent plans for war.

She made a calculated gamble and arrested Tyrion in the King's name, thus preserving her own personal safety and and hoped that would stay Tywin's hand. Instead he did the unprecedented and unleashed a terrorist war against the smallfolk of the Riverlands.

[Myrish swan]

Before Robert was killed, it wasn't really a war, just Tywin trying to lure Ned into a trap by ordering Gregor's raids on the Riverlands and gathering his forces in case things escalate. And Robert's death had nothing to do with Catelyn's arrest of Tyrion, it was caused by Ned's admission to Cercei that he knew about the incest, which made Cercei order Robert's assassination.

Really, the war was not started until Joff ordered Ned's assasination. And contrary to everyone else, I don't blame Cersei for that. She sincerely objects to Tyrion that she had no idea that Joff was going to kill Ned, and that she intended to have Ned take the black. She seemed very much against the idea of Joff murdering Ned, but was reluctant to challenge the king in public.

Also-- I think its hilarious how people are blaming Cat for "starting the war" when she made a sensible choice with the info she was given, while no one blames LITTLEFINGER!! I mean, was Cat really that stupid for trusting her beloved childhood friend? Cat made a mistake, however, she did not abduct Tyrion out of vengeance or whatever, as many are implying. She abducted him because he saw that she had been in kings landing, and she was afraid he'd tell the rest of the Lannisters. In contrast, LF willfully, maliciously started the war.

People have said that she had no choice but to capture Tyrion, but I don't buy that. Looking at it from her perspective, Tyrion attempted to kill her son, but she has no proof of this,......When Tyrion saw Catelyn in the Inn, he posed no immediate threat, since a quick glance around the room showed her that she had many allies who would have defended her, and he posed no real threat to their overall plan

That's not the issue, never was. The issue is that Tyrion saw Cat in Kings Landing. If he was indeed guilty of trying to murder Bran (as all evidence indicated) then him seeing Cat in Kings Landing would allow him to realize that the Starks were onto him. Thus, his knowledge of this would place Ned, Sansa, and Arya in immediate danger.

Honestly, your analysis clearly is done in the light of hindsight and the knowledge of things that the characters themselves had no way of knowing. It reminds me of the rather smug, gloating assessments of Ned's stupidity in AGoT. However, the people who criticize Ned generally have some weight behind their accusations, since he was arguably stupid and naive.

[Areo]

I think it's pretty damn hard to judge who is worse for her family. The worst parts (Rob and Joff's weddings, Winterfell and Tywin's sh*tty death) weren't really their fault. Rob fell in Tywin's trap, Joffrey got what he was asking for, because he was uncontrollable, etc. If I had to choose though I'd pick Cat, because the Lannisters are older - Tywin, Jaime, Tyrion are all mature and are players in the story, while, besides Ned and Cat, the Starks are pawns in the beginning because they are more or less children. So, I'm not saying Cersei acted smarter, but her actions affected a smaller portion of her family, especially while Tywin was alive.

[Myrish swan]

I honestly think that 'evil slut' is a concise, accurate description for Cersei. I could beat around the bush but what would be the point? She gives up her maid to Qybern (evil), and she spreads her legs for many people throughout the series (slut).

I understand what you are saying however, and respect the fact that this is a public forum. I'll keep it clean from now on. Maybe I'll say that Cersei is simply an 'evil lady who is far too liberal with her sexuality'?

That would be okay right?

But... why the heck do you care how "liberal" Cersei is with her sexuality? How does that go along with her being evil?

She "spreads her legs for many people throughout the series?" So? If that makes Cersei a slut, than what is the Red Viper? Robert Baratheion?

Honestly, though, I can’t blame you 150 percent for your claims here… far more space is spent demonizing Cersei for her sexual “betrayals” of Jaime (and, to a lesser extent, of Robert) than is spent on her actual evil deeds. Honestly, it seemed to me as though said evil deeds were thrown in in AFFC to make 150 percent sure that the audience would identify Cersei as “pure evil” rather than morally ambiguous.

Compared to the space that is dedicated to elaborating on how Cersei so heartlessly betrayed the loving, loyal Jaime with various men and how devastating that was for poor Jaime, the scenes in which Cersei commits true atrocities—such as killing her maid, or having people tortured for a puppet show—are almost added in there like throw away comments. Far more time is spent making Cersei look disgusting and “slutty” for her machinations with various men. When people are listing what makes Cersei so evil, I far more often notice that sleeping with guys to get ahead and “betraying Jaime” is mentioned more prominently and more frequently than her murdering and torturing of innocent people. And, with ridiculous frequency, the fact that Cersei is “a slut” is mentioned when people are explaining why they hate her.

Though I am not trying to get busted again for saying what the author “really” thinks of women in general, I think that there is every indication that, in the Jaime/ Cersei relationship, he gives every impression of identifying completely with Jaime. He encourages the reader to feel outrage on Jaime’s behalf for Cersei’s infidelity. He refuses to encourage any sympathy whatsoever with Cersei for sleeping with Kettleblack and Lancel and Moonboy, too. And for Jaime, this is the deal breaker, not the fact that Cersei wanted him to maim little girls. And this fact is not cast into question by GRRM at all.

Honestly, it seems as though GRRM is unable (or unwilling) to present a “good” or even morally ambiguous woman who cheats on a man whom he relates to. (Or, at least, this is the impression I get from the text. I am not saying anything about the authors opinions of women in general, here, only the fact that he seems to portray the cheated upon men in these situations far more sympathetically than the cheating women.) The way Cersei is demonized for cheating on Jaime is much the same as the way Shae is demonized for betraying Tyrion. In both cases, the man in question “loves” a woman, and is “loyal” to her by remaining sexually monogamous. This is portrayed as unquestionably virtuous on the part of the men, proof that their love is “true” and deep. (Never mind the fact that it almost seems as though the sexual fidelity of the men in question is not admirable, as it is presented, but somewhat creepy. Far better that they sleep around and actually enjoy themselves than they remain loyal to one woman, then become murderously angry when she does not do the same thing or return their love.) They both claim to feel “true love” for the woman in question (and their feelings are portrayed as virtuous and sincere.)

However, it is blatantly obvious that they only love an idea in their head that has nothing to do with the woman in question whatsoever. (Again, this is not portrayed as a flaw at all of Jaime or Tyrion—besides the fact that they were over trusting/ blinded by love—but of the evil women who willfully, maliciously “fooled” them about their true nature.) When they “find out” about the women they “loved”, love turns to hatred in disgust in about two seconds flat. (Something that you would not think would be the case if you truly loved someone.) Following this, these “good guys,” become murderously angry with their former “loves,” and want them dead. They proceed to either do it themselves (Tyrion) or sit back and let others do it. In any case, the reader is encouraged to cheer.

Here’s my question for you, Reaper. If Cersei were an otherwise nice person, but was otherwise “very liberal with her sexuality,” as you put it, would you still hate her nevertheless? If she cheated on Jaime and used sex to get ahead, but was kind to her servants, loved her kids, was capable of compassion, and, in many situations, tried to do the right thing, would you still despise her for her betrayal of Jaime, infidelity to Robert, and general “liberalness” with her sexuality? The funny thing is, that I cannot picture GRRM portraying such a female character, ever.

[Luin]

@ Myrish

Good point although I wouldn't let readers off the hook so much. Everything about Qyburn past his AFfC reintroduction shows his incredible evil out in the open, and things she does directly range from blaming her servants for everything to legalistic les majesty trials for a puuppet show. It doesn't matter how much more text is dedicated to her sexuality that shouldn't stick.

@ CatelynFan

She put all of her trust in the two people who murdered John Arryn. True you don't find out in AGoT, but part of the reason is anything she heard against a Lannister was uncritically accepted. Her "fear" was an excuse, all PoV characters put excuses for their actions into their minds and it is up to a reader provided with other PoV to decide if they are right. In this case her ability to hire a vastly superior defense against anything Tyrion could throw from an inn full of men loyal to her families made Tyrion neither a threat in the Inn or anywere else. Her choice to arrest him was a calculated decision of hers she made with the full knowledge that she was dancing around civil war if not provoking it. She also allowed no credibility to any evidence contrary to her preconceptions, for example Lysa wrote Cersei poisoned John, that is translated to Tyrion and overlooked as soon as convenient.

Furthermore lets look at what Catelyn thought later

1. She thought Tyrion should have been denied any form of trial, in other words a six year old ordering him thrown out the window appealed to her

2. She wanted his confession in private not because of fear of him being intimidated by knights of the vale, she wanted it in private so his appeal for some type of fairness would fall on deft ears and so his plan that the presence of a bard would garuntee everyone knows about the injustice inflicted on him if Lysa says no would fail

3. The duel meant less than nothing to her, to her a not guilty verdict means nothing in other words. If Eddard Stark was accused of a crime and survived through trial by combat she would have no problem saying his innocence is proven.

4. She is annoyed at her sister for granting a trial

5. A combination of the others shows she WANTED to starve a confession out of him. This is AFTER she learns how crazy her sister has become and her word isn't exactly evidence, it is after she has seen his battered and starved condition, this is after she saw a sellsword defeat Lysa's best knight.

She makes a transition from a good woman at the start to a bad one as she comes into contact with power, first power to arrest Tyrion (at which point she puts him through very Stalinist ordeals that he only escapes from because there is a Bard at court) then later power over Brienne (who was executed without even that pretense, unless I missed a section of text) and power over a group of outlaws (who are probably giving any Frey men the same they did to Brienne).

[Ran]

only the fact that he seems to portray the cheated upon men in these situations far more sympathetically than the cheating women

Arianne Martell is "cheating" on and tricking Arys Oakheart, but I find her very sympathetic. He's sympathetic, too, of course, but there's not much difference between them.

And then there's Genna Lannister, who is apparently widely believed to have cuckolded her husband, but she's certainly treated as a much more sympathetic figure to weak, whiny Emmon Frey...

People who cheered when Shae died don't understand what's actually happening in that scene. It says a lot more about their idiosyncracies and biases than it does about the text proper, beyond the fact that it's there for them to interpret and project their views on it.

I do think this idea that Cersei is to be vilified as a slut is also rather bad. ACoK provides a perfectly concise and reasonable explanation: it's the weapon she had to hand. Robert had his hammer, Jaime had his sword, Cersei has her sex. Robert doesn't refrain from bashing people to get what he wants, Jaime doesn't refrain from cutting people up to get what he wants, and Cersei doesn't refrain from using her body to get what she wants. It's all very much morally equivalent. And it's morally equivalent in the novel, I think, it's not as if there aren't other characters in the books who think of the fact that women are disadvantaged and have few means to get ahead, sex being one of them (oh, like Catelyn pitying Brienne because there's few things harder for a woman in their society than to be ugly [aka sexually unattractive]).

As to who is "worse" for her family? Cersei, clearly. It's not even a contest. I'm baffled, frankly, by the idea that Catelyn was "bad" for her family. Who destroyed the Starks? That blame goes to a lot of people, foremost among them Petyr Baelish, Tywin Lannister, Roose Bolton, Cersei Lannister... and Ned Stark and Robert Baratheon.

[Zoren]

Catelyn, no doubt about it. The way she handled the capture of Tyrion was beyond stupid, she basically doomed her family by capturing Tyrion and taking him to the Eerye instead of Winterfell. Had she taken Tyrion to Winterfell, he would still be her captive by the time Ned is imprisoned.

What was the logic behind not taking Tyrion to Winterfell? Yes, it was obvious so she tried to be unpredictable...so? Lannisters' forces are still miles away and Catelyn has a lot of allies in the North, there was no way Cat's party would be intercepted.

[Luin]

Catelyn, no doubt about it. The way she handled the capture of Tyrion was beyond stupid, she basically doomed her family by capturing Tyrion and taking him to the Eerye instead of Winterfell. Had she taken Tyrion to Winterfell, he would still be her captive by the time Ned is imprisoned.

What was the logic behind not taking Tyrion to Winterfell? Yes, it was obvious so she tried to be unpredictable...so? Lannisters' forces are still miles away and Catelyn has a lot of allies in the North, there was no way Cat's party would be intercepted.

You didn't factor in the character of Ned's chosen men or his son Robb or of the honor code Ned lives by (which got him to defend his wife even to Robert) which would have lead to a letter to her stating Tyrion is to be set free. Taking him to her sister's was in order to mistreat him into a confession, and get what she was after. At Winterfell she would have been completely accountable for everything, and needless to say once Ned found out she was having him tortured and starved he would be furious.

It is spelled out when Cat is angry at Lysa for ruining the arrangement by making Tyrion's confession public and so giving him an opportunity for a trial to be found not guilty at. The chances that Ned would have let her go far at all let along farther are zero. He would also not have defended her decision had he realized how dishonorably she was behaving. Robb is also very honorable and would not have been likely to sympathize with her ideas, and would have probably forced her to show him her (non existant) proof. You could fault her for capturing Tyrion, but to make any use out of that she couldn't have gone home.

[Ran]

Taking him to her sister's was in order to mistreat him into a confession, and get what she was after. At Winterfell she would have been completely accountable for everything, and needless to say once Ned found out she was having him tortured and starved he would be furious.

That's not what was going on. She wanted to go to the Eyrie because she was already thinking of going there to try and get more info from Lysa. She felt she had to pass it by because she didn't have the strength to try the high road. But then, forced to seize Tyrion out of a belief that his knowledge of her presence in the south would be disastrous if he continued on to King's Landing, she gathered men to her and decided she could risk the road after all. It was just convenient to take Tyrion that way because it allowed her to throw off her pursuers.

It was not because she planned to have Tyrion abused to force some sort of confession out of him (she even says she doesn't want him harmed). Hell, she didn't even want the trial.

So, no, Catelyn wasn't thinking dishonorably. Tyrion even says that: she might seize him out of some belief that it's the right thing to do, but she's an honorable person and there's things she wouldn't do (rob him, hurt him). Unfortunately for her, Lysa is not honorable and is pleased to abuse him, and pretty much takes him away from Catelyn's control.

...

She thought Tyrion should have been denied any form of trial, in other words a six year old ordering him thrown out the window appealed to her

Dude.

Young Robert pointed down, his hand trembling. "You're a liar. Mother, I want to see him fly." Two guardsmen in sky-blue cloaks seized Tyrion by the arms, lifting him off his floor.

The gods only know what might have happened then were it not for Catelyn Stark. "Sister," she called out from where she stood below the thrones, "I beg you to remember, this man is my prisoner. I will not have him harmed."

She doesn't want the trial to happen then and there because she sensed -- rightly -- that Tyrion was going to worm his way out of a proper trial. She sensed he had some plan to confound her efforts to get at the truth, as she saw it. And she was right, absolutely. This doesn't mean she wouldn't have wanted to try him ... but only when the situation allowed the maximum possibility of getting at the truth.

Crazed Lysa sitting judgment was not that situation.

I can't understand how people can be so uncharitable to characters. Cersei's a slut, Catelyn's a dwarf-abusing villainess without a shred of honor? What next?

Just look at her own thoughts.

[Luin]

That's not what was going on. She wanted to go to the Eyrie because she was already thinking of going there to try and get more info from Lysa. She felt she had to pass it by because she didn't have the strength to try the high road. But then, forced to seize Tyrion out of a belief that his knowledge of her presence in the south would be disastrous if he continued on to King's Landing, she gathered men to her and decided she could risk the road after all. It was just convenient to take Tyrion that way because it allowed her to throw off her pursuers.

It was not because she planned to have Tyrion abused to force some sort of confession out of him (she even says she doesn't want him harmed). Hell, she didn't even want the trial.

So, no, Catelyn wasn't thinking dishonorably. Tyrion even says that: she might seize him out of some belief that it's the right thing to do, but she's an honorable person and there's things she wouldn't do (rob him, hurt him). Unfortunately for her, Lysa is not honorable and is pleased to abuse him, and pretty much takes him away from Catelyn's control.

...

Dude.

She doesn't want the trial to happen then and there because she sensed -- rightly -- that Tyrion was going to worm his way out of a proper trial. She sensed he had some plan to confound her efforts to get at the truth, as she saw it. And she was right, absolutely. This doesn't mean she wouldn't have wanted to try him ... but only when the situation allowed the maximum possibility of getting at the truth.

Crazed Lysa sitting judgment was not that situation.

I can't understand how people can be so uncharitable to characters. Cersei's a slut, Catelyn's a dwarf-abusing villainess without a shred of honor? What next?

Just look at her own thoughts.

1. She says she doesn't want him harmed, but she seems to have only meant what the jailor did, not what Lysa did so even ignoring the beatings (pretending a knight guarded his cell) he is still being put in a situation where he is being forced to confess. After seeing everything her objection wasn't to how Tyrion was treated, she objects to her sister botching the attempt to keep Tyrion prisoner by allowing details of his treatment to be open to the public. There are some things she won't do, but she has no objection to others doing it. The Cat chapter after Tyrion is released does not show her in the best light.

2. She would be able to have more than enough guard to defend her on the way to the Eyrie or Winterfell. She chose to capture Tyrion in a massive miscalculation.If she thought capturing Tywin's youngest son would help the Stark Cause she massively miscalculated. None of the characters involved even Cersei intend their actions to go badly they sometimes work and sometimes are disasters for their houses. Just because she thought it would do well doesn't make it a good decision. She thought releasing Jaime would do good also and that to backfired on a grand scale.

3. She doesn't ask for a trial by the King, or by a neutral judge. What you described is essentially wanting a trial with a fixed verdict. That isn't justice and it isn't honorable. She also isn't stupid, she knows that the sky cells are not something anyone endures very long.

4. Yes she suspects his confession isn't what it appears to be, it is a desperate attempt by Tyrion to save his life. If she didn't want crazy Lysa, King Robert, or a neutral judge, trial by combat was the only option. It is openly stated that Tyrion wished he was at least in a Casterly Rock cell, and that the jailor was right he would be leaping out eventually.

5. Even forgetting about Tyrion letting Jaime Lannister go was brainless. It wasn't dishonorable but it was the opposite of an informed choice considering Tywin's history of treachery.

6. Would you want Cat making political decisions for you based on her record? She was manipulated into attacking Tyrion in an effort that backfired, and she was tricked into releasing Jaime in another effort to backfire and that is the end of her important decisions. She can't be blamed for the Red Wedding, but the arrest/release were her miscalculations.

[Nukelavee]

Honestly, although we don't see it, I think Cat was likely pretty worried about Tyrion being in those cells; we already know she could barely get her sister reined in.

The story actually tells us she couldn't get/have a large guard force.

Swan - I agree with you on a lot of what you said, I do think you are being a bit extreme in a few of the points tho. The only two I really think are wrong are you wondering that love can turn to hate so quickly. Trust me, it can. :(

The other is accusing Jaimie of wanting others to kill Cersie. I think it's as much about him realizing that her in power is as bad as Aerys was for the kingdom as it it him hating her. I'm not even certain he does hate her yet. Actually, I think it's likely a complex tangle as to why he isn't going back, at least part being he has no power over the faith.

And, yeah, reducing Cersie to a slut is pretty lame, it's like Dany being called a whore, it misses the mark and ignores so much of their characters.

[Angalin]

<mod gloves>

Leave the personal insults out of the discussion, please.

</mod gloves>