Cersei vs. Catelyn: Who is worse for their family?

[Asarlai]

Saying that, Ned parented Sansa into betraying him to their enemies.

Cersei never did that.

Not really, but he did make the match with Joffrey that led to that, and decided to tell his young children his plans, so those were bad moves on his part.

Yeah, but she did contribute to raising a "monster," because she wanted her son to be like Tywin Lannister.

[Luin]

Not really, but he did make the match with Joffrey that led to that, and decided to tell his young children his plans, so those were bad moves on his part.

Yeah, but she did contribute to raising a "monster," because she wanted her son to be like Tywin Lannister.

Well if the parents deserve blame for how they raised their children shouldn't Robert have a share of blame for Joffrey to?

[Asarlai]

Well if the parents deserve blame for how they raised their children shouldn't Robert have a share of blame for Joffrey to?

Robert was a bad father, as he admitted. Cersei tried to keep the kids away from his influence, but that's not a real excuse.

[Luin]

1.) Regardless of if the R+L theory is true, Ned raised Jon as his own from infancy. Possibly adopted children count. As for the Watch, he was raised well by Ned for 15 years prior, leading to his success in the Watch.

2.) Cat's feelings don't pertain, as someone had actually made a comment about Ned vs. Cersei, so I did that. Yeah, for Cat take out Jon (both the positive of him living and becoming Lord Commander). Still, her kids ended up somewhat better off.

1. True

2. Yes I agree completely. Still mathematically the gap between Cersei and Cat's success is slightly less than 80% without Jon. I wonder how Samwell will do in ADWD, but that is getting a little off topic.

Edit-True, but Robert and Cersei must have done some good considering how wonderful Tommen and his Ser are :thumbsup:

If Dany ever kills Tommen the people will think they have another Mad King, not another Rhaegar.

[Asarlai]

I hope Sam does become a maestor and/or returns to being Sam the Slayer, using secret knowledge to slay White Walkers while preserving the intense fear that makes him Sam.

As for Tommen and Myrcella; I think they were just lucky enough to not get the brunt of Cersei's "king training." She makes it clear that she tried to mold Joffrey into a Tywin-like figure and indicated an intent to do the same for Tommen in A Feast For Crows, not that she has the time.

Yes, if Dany killed Tommen it would be like Tywin ordering Gregor to kill the children.

[Nukelavee]

Myrish, the point Alexia was making (and I agree with ), is that it isn't the sexual manipulation that is shown as flawed, its the plan.

You are really pushing the envelope to try and make it a sexist message, but it isn't there.

[Lady Blackfish]

If you take the whole cast into account, you get Margaery Tyrell, who did VERY well by 'accepting' her place as a woman and learning how to wield the tools available to her in a non-destructive way.

Margaery has what a lot of other female characters do not have: a female network. She has a mentor who happened to live past the age of forty and provide her with experience's wisdom. Rebellion does have it's time and place, I think it's more about the step-by-step accumulation of power, which breeds more power, and picking your battles.

Robb called the banners without any older person's oversight.

Incidentally an older person (Ned) told Catelyn to make ready to call the banners.

Cat doesn't let Tyrion go, he doesn't defend KL.

It was Lysa who let Tyrion go.

Tywin wouldn't have attacked the Riverlands had Catelyn not arrested Tyrion, and while his attacking the Riverlands is not predictable, his calling the banners and marching to war on someone is.

I'm curious then, why didn't Tywin do that?

She doesn't have proof of any of the above and therefore should not have arrested him.

Surely proof is not required for a pseudo-medieval arrest, is it? Even today, isn't proof what the trial is for?

The other would be to demand that the King sat in judgement of Tyrion himself, in a fair trial. Then she and Ned would be forced to defend their capturing of the son of a High Lord with no evidence, something that would have been very bad.

Why would it have been very bad? False accusations are not the cause of war, Lysa falsely accused Tyrion after all but abided by the judgment of the trial and that was that. Mere bad blood between Stark and Lannister is a non-issue at that point anyway since it was still Lannisters who tried to kill Bran.

True you don't find out in AGoT, but part of the reason is anything she heard against a Lannister was uncritically accepted.

But she did not trust Lysa and Petyr because they were saying bad things about Lannisters. She trusted them because they were (effectively) her siblings.

Her choice to arrest him was a calculated decision of hers she made with the full knowledge that she was dancing around civil war if not provoking it.

Okay, so, if Catelyn ought to have been able to predict that war would come from arresting Tyrion, that would mean that war is an acceptable reaction to her action, right? And that would mean that Tywin would not need to disguise his forces that he sends in to raid the riverlands, right? So why does he send Gregor there with no Lannister (or Clegane) banners, if he is entitled to go to war? If war is so predictable, why does Tywin avoid openly going to war?

She also allowed no credibility to any evidence contrary to her preconceptions, for example Lysa wrote Cersei poisoned John, that is translated to Tyrion and overlooked as soon as convenient.

Lysa wrote that "the Lannisters" did it.

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Regarding sexual utility, I see where Myrish Swan is coming from though I disagree with particulars. I did sometimes feel that Cersei was supposed to be seen as a bit pathetic because of her reliance on sex as a weapon. Within Cersei's character itself, it makes sense. Cersei is not merely reliant on sex, but over-reliant. OTOH there's an essentially sexist trope at play in her depiction, her female sexuality is both powerful and negative (ie her hold over Jaime is perceived by many readers as controlling and vile, possibly because we access that part of the story through Jaime's POV).

W.R.T. Arianne it's different. For her, relying on sex is a whole other ball game than for Cersei. Arianne lives in a society where she gets actual power just by birthright, there are no gendered limitations and she doesn't have to circumvent power structures for her own goals. Her sexual manipulation, IMO, is portrayed as silly, a sign that she reads too many trashy romance novels and refuses to apply herself. Arianne lives in a society where she can take for granted that empowerment which women elsewhere have to fight so hard for. I think with Arianne, Martin was saying her sexual manipulation was something to outgrow, but he did not condemn her for it nor was it the root cause of any of her narrative setbacks.

[Asarlai]

I did sometimes feel that Cersei was supposed to be seen as a bit pathetic because of her reliance on sex as a weapon. Within Cersei's character itself, it makes sense. Cersei is not merely reliant on sex, but over-reliant.

Wasn't there a passage about her only weapon left being her beauty, and that would not last forever? Cersei will likely feel fairly impotent without sexual power (wow, sounds like a pun), and it would be even more pathetic as she's aging and finding her seductive powers failing more and more.

Assuming that she lasts that long...

[Alexia]

Arianne lives in a society where she gets actual power just by birthright, there are no gendered limitations and she doesn't have to circumvent power structures for her own goals.

Lady Blackfish, while there are no gendered limitations in Arianne's world, she does have to circumvent power structures for her own goals because her father has completely cut her out of power in Dorne. That was part of she was rebelling - I was reading the section last night (searching for any hint of sexist tropes or character degradation) where she seduces Arys and in there she talks about how Oberyn was left in charge of the rule (above all these other people who were given real political roles) and she was put in charge of feasts.

She definitely didn't need to use her sexuality to accomplish her overall goal of gaining power as the heir to Dorne so I do agree with your point but I do feel like some circumvention was necessary for her.

[Nukelavee]

Lady Blackfish - My point about Cat not being there to call the banners is less a "she screwed teh family", and more her utility as a Stark, and adult, was wasted by never being where she really needed to be. Part of that was her trip to KL, and her fault, part was Robb's fault for picking the wrong people to entrust certain tasks to.

I'll admit, I'm as guilty as any others here of occasionally losing track of the fact that this is a story, and things happen because they did, not as I would like them to have gone.

I still say Cersei is worse, because she instigates so many things, where Cat and the Starks are always simply reacting to the Lannisters. Plus, Cersie has far more competant people to back her up, and circumvent her for most of the time, the Starks don't have near the number of "strong" powerful adults to keep things kind of in balance.

With Arriane, I see a bit of an irony happening. She feels powerless and cheated of her role in ruling Dorne, and thinks her father is, well, useless. So, she comes up with a plan, flaws and all. Alas, her father has such DEEP plans, and is so good at hiding his thoughts, her plan is directly opposing his plan...which has, as it's goal, really, her goal.

In short, Doran is as guilty as she is for their current dilema.

[Myrish swan]

With Arriane, I see a bit of an irony happening. She feels powerless and cheated of her role in ruling Dorne, and thinks her father is, well, useless. So, she comes up with a plan, flaws and all. Alas, her father has such DEEP plans, and is so good at hiding his thoughts, her plan is directly opposing his plan...which has, as it's goal, really, her goal.

In short, Doran is as guilty as she is for their current dilema.

This was sort of my issue with her. Though she was not overtly degraded/ demonized for using sex to get ahead, I do think it was ultimately made clear that in doing so, she was wrong. Her using sex led to the death of her lover, and the maiming of Myrcella. Of course, as you and Alexia object, this was due not to Arianne’s using her sexuality to get ahead, but to flaws in the plan. But who created the plan in the first place? Arianne.

And that, in short, is my objection to the portrayal of Arianne’s character. Not that she is made to look evil, but that she is made to look stupid. Or, in the very least, foolish, and naive; a little kid playing at an adult's game. In the end, she is portrayed as a foolish little girl who needs to listen to her much wiser daddy.

Doran is a somewhat ironic character, because though the “strong” women (Arianne and the sand snakes) are shown to hold him in contempt and question his ability to rule, he is shown to be 10 times wiser than them all in the end. Also, he ends up besting them all, which is annoying. Arianne’s summation of him—that he’s weak and does nothing, and calls it thinking—is as faulty as the rest of her thoughts and plans. When Arianne urges for the war (as the sand snakes before her did) Doran wisely reminds her that they do not have the numbers. Furthermore, Doran has been plotting his (much wiser, much more realistic) revenge against the Lannister’s all along. Thus, he’s shown to be far wiser and cannier than all of the females around him, who are put in their place. This includes the Sand Snakes, and most of all, Arianne.

Arianne is “put in her place”—made to look foolish, ignorant, and over confident—not just once, but numerous times in her chapters. First, there is the failure of her original plan. Arianne is made to look stupid here, since she didn’t even realize that someone would tell—after all, even the simple minded Areo Hootah knows that “someone always tells.” (Also she’s shown spazzing out and crying out like a little girl when Arys attacks Areo.)

Next she proceeds to act out Cersei’s character arc in miniature, as she tries to escape from her captivity. After reflecting how the Sand Snakes have their fighting skills but she only has her wits as a weapon, she proceeds to attempt to escape. Her plans are shown as foolish and juvenile, and she is shown being easily caught and foiled by those around her. Like Cersei, with Arianne we get the clear message “she’s not nearly as smart as she thinks she is.” Finally, there’s the scene with her father, where it is revealed that her plan is not only stupid, but aimed at an object that would ruin her country. They don’t have the numbers for the war, and her wise daddy has to tell stupid little girl Arianne this. He also reveals he’s been planning a far more intricate revenge on the Lanisters all along, unbeknownst to her. And also, he does not want to deprive her of her inheritance. Silly girl!

And though Doran is shown to have his flaws—a bit of laziness, and the tendency to put things off he does not want to deal with—I think he ultimately emerges the victor in the battle of wits between him and his daughter. He quickly and effortlessly foils her plan, which was hugely flawed in numerous ways. Furthermore, he reveals that the intention behind her plan (and those of the sand snakes before her) was stupid and incredibly short sighted. Ultimately, his failure to train his heir is excused by the fact that, as he professed himself, Arianne cannot keep a secret. Doran (and GRRM) make it clear that if she had known, Arianne almost certainly would have told the one of the Sand Snakes.

[malarky1231]

This is why women should leave the ruling to men. I hope Quentyn succeeds Doran, I really do, bc Arianne will ruin Dorne.

[Myrish swan]

But that's exactly what you said, and I've quoted where you said it above. You even used the words "evil and degrading," and I was very careful to quote your wording as I found it such an astounding conclusion with Arianne (with Cersi, I get that, but Arianne?). *shrugs*

You are sort of quoting me out of context, though. That quote was highlighting how LF’s using sex to get ahead was “not portrayed as evil, destructive, or degrading (to him) as it is with Arianne and Cersei,” because Cersei and Arianne’s sexual manipulations are shown to have clear, sympathetic victims, LF’s are not. It is for this reason that I felt Arianne’s sexuality was being portrayed as something negative and degrading to her. Because it ends in death and destruction, and also serves as part of a larger plan that casts question on Arianne’s intelligence and competence.

LOL. You know what, Myrish Swan, you've convinced me. Arianne is an absolutely terrible, immoral character (person?) and entirely to blame for Arys' suicidal charge and Darkstar's maiming of Myrcella (unsure how she sexually manipulated Darkstar into that but meh, it was probably by being sexy!).

Actually, I liked Arianne a lot, which is why I was so annoyed to see her made to look so foolish in her POV chapters. Like Cersei, she seems to suddenly shed 40 IQ points in her last chapter, when she is running around, stupidly trying to escape, and failing ridiculously.

Honestly, Cersei is clearly degraded (and demonized) for using her sexuality to get ahead. However, in a far more subtle way, Arianne is, too. She is made out to look like a foolish little girl who should have listened to her much wiser daddy all along. Even the fact that Doran did not tell her his plans is put on Arianne’s head—it is indicated that Arianne cannot keep a secret. But apparently, her 18 year old brother can…

Color me incredibly confused because at this point, I really do think that you just don't like the character and blame her character for everything that happened to Arys and Myrcella (while whitewashing Arys of any blame in it) and choose to blame GRRM for manipulating the text to make you come to that conclusion.

Disliking the way a character is portrayed is not the same as disliking the character themselves. As I’ve mentioned numerous times, I like Arianne. And I never “white washed” Arys. Nor do I blame Arianne for everything—my point is that her sexual manipulations are made to look like they are responsible for a lot of suffering. Interestingly, you’ve never really addressed my specific points… my explanation as to how Arianne’s sexual manipulations lead to Myrcella’s maiming and Arys’s death you deflect with mockery rather than any sound, coherent arguments.

Honestly, I don’t see why the heck I would want to “blame” GRRM for me disliking a character. And I do like Arianne, even if I’m not crazy about the Dornish chapters as a whole. (And I’m not clear on why someone would need to be “blamed” for me taking a dislike to a character.) My issues with how Arianne is potrayed are similar to the issues with how Cersei is portrayed in AFFC. And I couldn’t help but notice that Arianne using sex to get ahead being portrayed as bad is part of a larger pattern for women in these books.

I don't see the need to reiterate my argument again because we'll just run round the wagon in circles. Suffice it to say that I disagree with your conclusions on Arianne and LF, for all the reasons I've previously indicated, and let us agree to disagree.

Okay, fair enough. I just thought I’d clarify my thoughts on a few things, and reiterate the fact that I do actually like Arianne.