Deconstructing Tywin

[King Ned Stark]

Okay, I felt that if Tywin wasn't the biggest villian of the series, he was certainly the most dangerous. Despite the man having virtually no redeeming qualities, it seems he is fairly well defended by members here. I have seen him praised on his political acumen, his overall intelligence, and his abilities as a battle commander.

Political acumen - For a politicking genius, he made many obvious blunders to me. At one point in time, as Hand, he was the second most powerful man in westeros. Yet his inability to appease Aerys led to his dismissal/resignation, I forget which, but to me it's a moot point, doesn't really matter which. He couldn't navigate the political waters to best serve his family (which seems to be a strong arguing point for Tywin's decisions). He laid back during the war of the usurper for the better part of a year, if not longer. As much as I hate to admit it, I'm probably a vengeful kind of guy when wrongfully defied, and I pale in comparison to the lords of westeros. Having said that, where was his masterful political stroke here? Robert, Jon, and Ned are not men to forget his absence, and Aerys even less likely, and at that point Tywin had nothing to offer either claimant who might win. So all he did was jeopardize his House no matter who wins.

Intelligence - There are two things, off of the top of my head here, that are glaringly obvious. His mistreatment of Tyrion, and his inability to see Tyrion's substantial value (and I'm not a Tyrion fan whatsoever). And why, for the love of everything holy, would he not give up Gregor to sate all of the nobility of Dorne? Gregor is handy as a rabid dog for a tyrannical ruler to strike fear into your foes, but twenty thousands Dornish fighters would go a long way to strike fear. Gregor's head for a kingdom, and he chooses the man, big and sadistic as he his.

Battle Commander - He orchestrated the red wedding (which was utterly stupid to me, even though it worked) because he told Tyrion he could not get at Robb in the field or some such, that he kept his men well in order, and was always well protected. If Tywin was some kind of military genius, then he should have made short work out of sixteen year old boy who was learning as he goes. He spent the entire war of the five kings reacting to Robb instead of making Robb react to him (reference Grant and Lee of the civil war, or Rommel of WWII to see how bad of an idea that is). And, if he is so terrible in the field, why did he hold back during the usurper war, because he was biding his time?

Also, it is never said that he won a great victory, other than by treachery, which is his craft.

One point that I feel encompasses all three of the criteria previously mentioned. Because this decision is stupid on all three fronts. Catelyn "abducts" his son, and he sends raiders into the Riverlands? And under the command of Gregor no less? Yeah, not having a surcoat of dogs will make Gregor indistinguishable. Idiocy. Even his plan to draw Ned out (because he was shrewd enough to know Ned "did his own killing") Tywin was fortunate, that due to his impetuous son that Ned was incapacitated, because Beric survived the ambush and lived to hinder the Lannisters, had Ned "survived" the ambush and won back to the north, well then the Lannisters are utterly finished.

Anyway, I did a pro-Ned thread, and most of you guys cut me to pieces, so here is the anti-Tywin thread, slash away.

[Free Northman]

I disagree. I think Tywin was the most brilliant strategist on the side of the bad guys by a long shot.

But I have no cause to defend him, as his evil was breathtaking. As this exchange between Jaime and the Blackfish acknowledged:

Jaime: My father is dead as well.

Blackfish: May the father judge him justly.

Jaime (to himself): Now there's a terrifying prospect. (Or something along those lines).

This is echoed by Doran Martell when he says that Tywin is howling in hell for his sins or something to that effect.

He was a terrible man. End of story. But a very astute one nevertheless.

[Chalky]

Political acumen - He was the last hand to leave the office with his life and reputation intact. Appeasing Aerys was a fools errand that he still did very well in. It was aerys mistake in snubbing him, not Tywins. He didnt jeapodize his house by killing Targaryens, he demonstrated his use to Robert by doing the unpleasent tasks allowing hypocritical Starks and Baratheons to maintain their pleasent thoughts of their own honour.

"If they kneeel then you must help them to their feet." Wise advice, wasted on Joffrey and Cersei, and a crucial quote in understanding what political acumen means in GRR Martin's world

Intelligence - Gregor was very useful to Tywin, implying to me that the man was capable of loyalty. His mistreatment of tyrion was illogical, but was tied in to love for his wife. he wouldnt be the first clever man to make mistakes for love

Battle Commander - He established himself very early on as a cunning man that cant be fucked with (Rains of Castamere). This was why Theon's plan of attacking Westport was dismissed out of hand by the Greyjoys. He beat Roose Bolton. And yes, he beat Robb Stark. Stannis was the only commander who could claim to have worse luck

He had the capital, and the best strategic advantage, why should he attack robb? I agree with his conduct, it was unlucky that robb had a secret passage through to Westport (right place?)

Sending reavers allowed Robb to make a stupid decision by allowing his forces to split and defend their own lands.

The man was very, very smart

[iamthedave]

Political acumen - For a politicking genius, he made many obvious blunders to me. At one point in time, as Hand, he was the second most powerful man in westeros. Yet his inability to appease Aerys led to his dismissal/resignation, I forget which, but to me it's a moot point, doesn't really matter which. He couldn't navigate the political waters to best serve his family (which seems to be a strong arguing point for Tywin's decisions). He laid back during the war of the usurper for the better part of a year, if not longer. As much as I hate to admit it, I'm probably a vengeful kind of guy when wrongfully defied, and I pale in comparison to the lords of westeros. Having said that, where was his masterful political stroke here? Robert, Jon, and Ned are not men to forget his absence, and Aerys even less likely, and at that point Tywin had nothing to offer either claimant who might win. So all he did was jeopardize his House no matter who wins.

Anyone can ignore the successes, focus on the negatives, and come to the conclusion that x character is incompetent. If you look for the arguments you'll come to the conclusion that literally no character in the series is competent or accomplished at anything, including the ones who clearly are (primarily Tyrion). Actually no, scratch that, you'll come to the conclusion that only Varys and Littlefinger are competent.

His inability to appease Aerys led to him taking part in the rebellion which resulted in Aerys' death and the near-annihilation of his family line. I think it's quite clear who came out on top in this relationship.

And you've completely missed the obvious here: Tywin was waiting to see who was likely to win before throwing his lot in with them. Which he did. And as a result house Lannister came to rule the seven kingdoms. So... yeah. How can you use this as a negative point against Tywin, again?

Intelligence - There are two things, off of the top of my head here, that are glaringly obvious. His mistreatment of Tyrion, and his inability to see Tyrion's substantial value (and I'm not a Tyrion fan whatsoever). And why, for the love of everything holy, would he not give up Gregor to sate all of the nobility of Dorne? Gregor is handy as a rabid dog for a tyrannical ruler to strike fear into your foes, but twenty thousands Dornish fighters would go a long way to strike fear. Gregor's head for a kingdom, and he chooses the man, big and sadistic as he his.

He mistreated Tyrion for emotional reasons. Intelligent people do have those you know. Tywin wasn't some maester, he was still a soldier as well as a ruler, and had a very warrior-like attitude to just about everything. Opposition is something to be crushed utterly.

And for all that he mistreated Tyrion, he recognized Tyrion's ability when it came to politics, as shown by him sending him to Kings Landing. He knew Tyrion would not make the mistakes he could clearly see were being made.

Why would he not give up Gregor? See the entire Riverlands war, where he used Gregor to extremely great effect. And note that the moment he decided Gregor was no longer useful he handed him over to the Dornishmen. So I'd say this is a perfect sign of his intelligence. He assessed a tool and after measuring the potential consequences decided it was best to keep it around for now. Was it the right decision? Debatable. But intelligent people make wrong decisions sometimes, too. You can't argue that the decision worked out well for him.

Even if he HAD given Gregor over it would have made no long term difference, anyway. The Dornish were always going to want vengeance and were always going to try and get the Targs back in power (not that Tywin knew the last part). Besides which, they're not thick. They know who Gregor works for. It's Tywin they really want. Why throw a bone to someone when it's still got some meat on it?

When Tywin was in Kings Landing for a brief time, you got to see him in action. How many characters are so astute or so swift about brokering alliances and knowing the right things to do to get people to cooperate?

Battle Commander - He orchestrated the red wedding (which was utterly stupid to me, even though it worked) because he told Tyrion he could not get at Robb in the field or some such, that he kept his men well in order, and was always well protected. If Tywin was some kind of military genius, then he should have made short work out of sixteen year old boy who was learning as he goes. He spent the entire war of the five kings reacting to Robb instead of making Robb react to him (reference Grant and Lee of the civil war, or Rommel of WWII to see how bad of an idea that is). And, if he is so terrible in the field, why did he hold back during the usurper war, because he was biding his time?

Also, it is never said that he won a great victory, other than by treachery, which is his craft.

You can turn your comment about Robb right around: if Robb/Dany/Greyjoy/insert x here was a military genius they would have been able to make short work of Tywin/Joffrey/Dany/Greyjoy/insert x here.

Contrary to popular belief, the presence of several thousand armed men plus castles plus spears and horses between you and your goal makes said goal rather hard to reach. Robb and Tywin would likely never have killed each other no matter how long the war went on; eventually one side would have yielded to the other.

You've also failed to mention the presence of extremely proficient bannermen such as Greatjon Umber, Lord Karstark and Brynden Blackfish who were at Robb's side giving him a huge amount of advice. It's not like Robb was singlehandedly fighting every battle and slaying thousands of Lannisters. He was a quick-learning, charismatic maybe-prodigy backed up by skilled warriors. Which bit of this translates as being easy work for Tywin?

Why did he hold back in the Usurper War? Because he hadn't decided which side he was fighting for. This is hardly a well kept secret.

One point that I feel encompasses all three of the criteria previously mentioned. Because this decision is stupid on all three fronts. Catelyn "abducts" his son, and he sends raiders into the Riverlands? And under the command of Gregor no less? Yeah, not having a surcoat of dogs will make Gregor indistinguishable. Idiocy. Even his plan to draw Ned out (because he was shrewd enough to know Ned "did his own killing") Tywin was fortunate, that due to his impetuous son that Ned was incapacitated, because Beric survived the ambush and lived to hinder the Lannisters, had Ned "survived" the ambush and won back to the north, well then the Lannisters are utterly finished.

Anyway, I did a pro-Ned thread, and most of you guys cut me to pieces, so here is the anti-Tywin thread, slash away.

You do make it rather easy, I'm afraid.

Gregor's Riverlands raiding was DEVASTATING. It was also key to the tactics Tywin was using. He knew that by doing this he would put pressure on Robb's army, because Robb's bannermen would want to defend their smallfolk (the ones Gregor was killing). Tywin didn't have to actually engage Robb's army, because he knew that by attacking the smallfolk he would put pressure on the army to splinter. Which it did. He was literally inflicted faux casualties without ever endangering his troops.

Once he recognized that Robb was a lot cannier than he initially believed he also chose to play cautiously. You can say what you like about caution in war, but Tywin was set up in a defensible position that Robb could not safely attack. He was setting himself up to not lose, to prepare the ground for a chance to win. And while he was exorbitantly lucky on two occasions (once when Edmure rose out to fight him against Robb's wishes and the Red Wedding situation falling into his lap), you can't use it as a negative when he took full advantage of those situations, responded swiftly and appropriately, and in the end WON THE GODDAMN WAR. Robb played a hand in losing the war, but Tywin still played a hand in winning it. He didn't just sit on his arse and mop his brow that the gods saved him. He leapt on every chance he had and made the most of them. Some would say that's all a general does.

Equally you can hardly blame Tywin for Beric Dondarrion being resurrected by magic, since by the sound of things Beric died relatively early on in the chain of events.

This isn't a 'deconstruction' it's an attempt at character assassination, ignoring the obvious successes and only presenting the negatives and claiming that's the man. You also don't mention the various reasons for some of his decisions, which should also be present in a deconstruction.

If you want to see a proper anti-Tywin argument, look at the latter pages of the Smartest character thread. I don't personally agree with the arguments, but many of them are sound, especially concerning the Riverlands war.

[King Ned Stark]

Free Northman, Chalky, IamtheDave,

Sorry, as I don't have enough time at the moment to respond to specific details of your post (again sorry, when time permits, I will, if this thread isn't dead). Perhaps I was bit loose in the title of the thread, but, so many people, as this thread shows, defends Tywin, so I did not feel the need or have the time to explain all of his accomplishments. The argument holds water that Tywin was as fallible as anyone else. His demise was quite ignominious.

[Ser Sweetrobin Arryn]

I agree with bits of your post and bits of others. Tywin, however talented as a Political leader, was not as smart or gifted strategically as many believe.

Political Acumen

There was nobody better.

"If they kneeel then you must help them to their feet." Wise advice, wasted on Joffrey and Cersei, and a crucial quote in understanding what political acumen means in GRR Martin's world

This may be one of the most important points that could be made. If anyone wants to reread Tyrion's chapter 54 in ASoS (begins p. 588 in the hardcover), he presses further from there. Tywin knew what to do when the kingdom was in his hands and he knew how to tweak the game to his advantage. The Tyrion chapter 20 is also a good reference for this.

Intelligence

Tywin was smart and he was cunning, but we shouldn't give intelligence Luck's due. This did, kind of, just work out for him. Just because he was a ruthless hardass and extremely lucky doesn't mean he was brilliant.

His mistreatment of Tyrion, and his inability to see Tyrion's substantial value (and I'm not a Tyrion fan whatsoever).

I agree here. Tywin undervalued and underestimated his son. That was stupid. Tywin was overconfident in his abilities and let that overconfidence get the best of him. He could dish it out as freely as he wanted to (Robb), but he couldn't take it (Tyrion). To stress my point, Tywin backstabbed Robb with the help of the Freys and the Boltons, and, after all the snubs he dished out, was unable to recognize that he, too, could be backstabbed. End of story. He let his arrogance get the best of his intelligence.

Battle Commander

There is a difference between Battle Commander and Political Acumen.

Tywin never defeated Robb in battle. Not once. He defeated Robb's host that was, more or less, supposed to lose, but he never once defeated Robb.

He spent the entire war of the five kings reacting to Robb instead of making Robb react to him (reference Grant and Lee of the civil war, or Rommel of WWII to see how bad of an idea that is).

This is important and shouldn't be overlooked. Tywin had to work around Robb's constant victories over the Lannisters to such a point that Tywin reacted more to Robb than Robb did to him. Remember that Edmure Tully ruined Robb's chances of defeating Tywin before he could be sucked into the Robb trap.

I would also like to point out that Tywin didn't enter the fray of a battle and preferred to stand on the hill behind, watching and directing it. Though this was a good way to stay alive, it wasn't necessarily the best way to inspire the troops. What battle commander would you rather have? The man who stands on the hill and watches? Or the man that hops into the fray and duels Rhaegar for the hand of his love? (haha, I may have loaded the language on that one a bit...)

His mystery (we don't see through his perspective) doesn't make him that much better than anyone else. We can speak of Tyrion's mistakes all day, but when Genna Lannister talks to Jaime about "Tywin's son," she deftly declares that Tyrion is most like Tywin. If we must look to Tywin's character, we should use Tyrion as a template and tweak various emotional shortcomings.

He has made errors much graver than others in this series (he trusted Littlefinger and thought the man couldn't do any damage from the Vale), and shouldn't be given credit when it isn't due.

[Talleyrand]

Tywin won the war because he lost the battle. If Edmure had let Tywin march by or if Tywin had managed to defeat Edmure then Lord Lannister would have been trapped in the Westerlands with Robb in front of him and Roose + Edmure at his back and unable to get back to KL and meet the Tyrells, saving Joffrey and Cersei. So he won because he was unable to beat a vastly outnumbered army led by Edmure

[iamthedave]

Intelligence

I agree here. Tywin undervalued and underestimated his son. That was stupid. Tywin was overconfident in his abilities and let that overconfidence get the best of him. He could dish it out as freely as he wanted to (Robb), but he couldn't take it (Tyrion). To stress my point, Tywin backstabbed Robb with the help of the Freys and the Boltons, and, after all the snubs he dished out, was unable to recognize that he, too, could be backstabbed. End of story. He let his arrogance get the best of his intelligence.

Tywin undervalued Tyrion, he didn't underestimate him, save for in the last moments of his life. I really don't get how people keep misreading the situation there.

Tywin COMPLETELY dominated Tyrion's life and the lives of his children. Not once do his kids ever even talk back to him successfully inside the pages of the story. Tywin has no reason to believe that Tyrion would shoot, because he knows he's his master. Look at the spoiler chapters. Even Tyrion admits that if Tywin had a moment longer he would have taken the crossbow out of Tyrion's hands.

But even so, this is not a matter of stupidity. Tywin's reasons for hating Tyrion were irrational, but understandable. The only person Tywin loved in his whole life, seemingly, was his wife. Who died with Tyrion's birth. He's said that he views Tyrion as punishment for his sins.

His feelings for Tyrion are not fair, but calling it stupidity is misusing the word.

If it had been literally anybody else standing there with that crossbow than Jaime, Cersei or Tyrion, he would have taken them and the situation absolutely seriously. But the idea of his children defying him after a lifetime of being dominated and controlled by him isn't something that would even vaguely occur to him.

His arrogance got the better of him, yes. But that's a world of difference from stupidity. If you look at how Tywin uses Tyrion, he knows what Tyrion is capable of and uses him extremely effectively, which is clearly a sign of his intelligence at work.

He knows what Tyrion is and what he's capable of. He just hates him. That never stops him from putting Tyrion to best use, though.

[zmflavius]

I agree with bits of your post and bits of others. Tywin, however talented as a Political leader, was not as smart or gifted strategically as many believe.

Political Acumen

There was nobody better.

This may be one of the most important points that could be made. If anyone wants to reread Tyrion's chapter 54 in ASoS (begins p. 588 in the hardcover), he presses further from there. Tywin knew what to do when the kingdom was in his hands and he knew how to tweak the game to his advantage. The Tyrion chapter 20 is also a good reference for this.

Intelligence

Tywin was smart and he was cunning, but we shouldn't give intelligence Luck's due. This did, kind of, just work out for him. Just because he was a ruthless hardass and extremely lucky doesn't mean he was brilliant.

I agree here. Tywin undervalued and underestimated his son. That was stupid. Tywin was overconfident in his abilities and let that overconfidence get the best of him. He could dish it out as freely as he wanted to (Robb), but he couldn't take it (Tyrion). To stress my point, Tywin backstabbed Robb with the help of the Freys and the Boltons, and, after all the snubs he dished out, was unable to recognize that he, too, could be backstabbed. End of story. He let his arrogance get the best of his intelligence.

Battle Commander

There is a difference between Battle Commander and Political Acumen.

Tywin never defeated Robb in battle. Not once. He defeated Robb's host that was, more or less, supposed to lose, but he never once defeated Robb.

This is important and shouldn't be overlooked. Tywin had to work around Robb's constant victories over the Lannisters to such a point that Tywin reacted more to Robb than Robb did to him. Remember that Edmure Tully ruined Robb's chances of defeating Tywin before he could be sucked into the Robb trap.

I would also like to point out that Tywin didn't enter the fray of a battle and preferred to stand on the hill behind, watching and directing it. Though this was a good way to stay alive, it wasn't necessarily the best way to inspire the troops. What battle commander would you rather have? The man who stands on the hill and watches? Or the man that hops into the fray and duels Rhaegar for the hand of his love? (haha, I may have loaded the language on that one a bit...)

His mystery (we don't see through his perspective) doesn't make him that much better than anyone else. We can speak of Tyrion's mistakes all day, but when Genna Lannister talks to Jaime about "Tywin's son," she deftly declares that Tyrion is most like Tywin. If we must look to Tywin's character, we should use Tyrion as a template and tweak various emotional shortcomings.

He has made errors much graver than others in this series (he trusted Littlefinger and thought the man couldn't do any damage from the Vale), and shouldn't be given credit when it isn't due.

I'm going to have to agree with this post more or less entirely.

Tywin in a purely military sense left much to be desired. We get two battles in which his plans are described in detail, and in the one, his plans were nothing special, and his victory should be attributed more to his overwhelming advantage in numbers and quality than to any tactical skill of his. In the other, well, he lost.

However, what Tywin was was a brilliant politician, for the reasons listed above.

[Ser Sweetrobin Arryn]

We can all split on what kind of person Tywin was, but at the end of the day one thing stands out: naked Shae wearing the Hand of the King necklace in his bed.

I repeat, his mystery shouldn't let us overinflate his qualities. He was never the person we thought he was and was as vulnerable and as weak and as human as anyone else. I would go as far as saying that he was nearly identical to the kind of person Tyrion was. He only hid it better.

[Faint]

I lean towards thinking that Tywin is far too celebrated for a reputation that is not at all merited. From the little we saw of him, I think it more accurate to label him implacable since he does not come off as crafty in the least bit. He was fooled, not once, but twice, on the battlefield by a teenaged Robb Stark and was only saved from ultimate disaster by the fortuitous intervention of Edmure Tully's pride. He was equally fooled by Littlefinger's stratagems in those blessed few moments when he was not fooled by Varys' own. His obsession with his pride caused him to blunder badly in permanently alienating the Dornish, made worse by his refusal to cede any ground and have Gregor executed before the latter decided to end Oberyn Martell's life. And I haven't yet touched on Tywin's greatest failure, the handling of his children, which ensured that all his victories would always be Pyrrhic, no matter how initially resounding.

[Ser Sweetrobin Arryn]

I lean towards thinking that Tywin is far too celebrated for a reputation that is not at all merited. From the little we saw of him, I think it more accurate to label him implacable since he does not come off as crafty in the least bit. He was fooled, not once, but twice, on the battlefield by a teenaged Robb Stark and was only saved from ultimate disaster by the fortuitous intervention of Edmure Tully's pride. He was equally fooled by Littlefinger's stratagems in those blessed few moments when he was not fooled by Varys' own. His obsession with his pride caused him to blunder badly in permanently alienating the Dornish, made worse by his refusal to cede any ground and have Gregor executed before the latter decided to end Oberyn Martell's life. And I haven't yet touched on Tywin's greatest failure, the handling of his children, which ensured that all his victories would always be Pyrrhic, no matter how initially resounding.

Couldn't have said it better.

[king biters chamber pot]

He knows what Tyrion is and what he's capable of. He just hates him. That never stops him from putting Tyrion to best use, though.

except that time when he put him in the van, before making any use of him at all?

[Kittyhat]

All of the points I'd make on the subject have already been made, so I'll just chime in to agree with those who find Tywin overrated. He doesn't even make my list of smartest characters in the series; his reputation far exceeded his actual abilities.

I will say this: someone else commented that Tywin was more or less just like Tyrion, but I disagree with that much. I don't think Tywin ever reached Tyrion's level in anything save physical stature.

[Jane Doe]

Okay, I felt that if Tywin wasn't the biggest villian of the series, he was certainly the most dangerous. Despite the man having virtually no redeeming qualities, it seems he is fairly well defended by members here. I have seen him praised on his political acumen, his overall intelligence, and his abilities as a battle commander.Political acumen - For a politicking genius, he made many obvious blunders to me. At one point in time, as Hand, he was the second most powerful man in westeros. Yet his inability to appease Aerys led to his dismissal/resignation, I forget which, but to me it's a moot point, doesn't really matter which.

I found it amazing that no one has pointed this out yet-- In one pov of Jaime in ASoS, Jaime said, the reason Tywin resigned was that the Mad King took Jaime in as the new Kingsguard, directly robbing Tywin of his heir to Casterly Rock. Tywin was so furious that he resigned and took his daughter back to Casterly Rock, which defeated the whole purpose of Jaime joining the Kingsguard.

Also, on the point about Tywin sitting out the war. Just reference the fact that Robert had to marry Cersei even though he did not love her at all, but needed the support of House Lannister. His daughter thought it was coward that he didn't join the war, but I think Tywin knew that whoever wins, they are gonna need his support and will not dare to openly voice their dissatisfaction.

All of the points I'd make on the subject have already been made, so I'll just chime in to agree with those who find Tywin overrated. He doesn't even make my list of smartest characters in the series; his reputation far exceeded his actual abilities.I will say this: someone else commented that Tywin was more or less just like Tyrion, but I disagree with that much. I don't think Tywin ever reached Tyrion's level in anything save physical stature.

I agree with "his reputation far exceeds his ability". Maybe Tywin purposefully kept himself a mysteriously figure and used it to his benefit. Maybe he allowed exaggeration in "Rains of Castermere". But just know this means cunning. One thing Tywin knows better than Tyrion is he knew how and when to keep his mouth shut. Tyrion may be the smartest man in the Seven Kingdom, but because of his appearance and how insecure he was about that he had to constantly show how clever he was to make up those.

And Tyrion knows this.

[Kittyhat]

But just know this means cunning. One thing Tywin knows better than Tyrion is he knew how and when to keep his mouth shut.

Fair point. If he wasn't good at anything else, Tywin was at least good at guarding his reputation. I have to give him that one.

[King Ned Stark]

Iamthdave,

Such a scathing reply. You say I made it rather easy for you to deconstruct my deconstruction of Tywin. But I don't see where you did any such thing. I was judging his decisions, not the outcome of said decision, however fortuitous that outcome may be. Mistreatment of a valuable ally who is your son, whether it's an emotional response or not, is stupid. Not handing Gregor over to justice to appease Dorne is not the shrewd use of a tool, it is a huge political mistake borne of arrogance and bad judement. Having a couple turncoats willing to betray and murder your enemy is just plain lucky. And sitting out the usurper war "brooding" is petulant and dangerous. The only way this benefits House Lannister is if Robert does win and Lyanna dies and Robert names a Hand who urges him to marry Cersei AND he agrees to do so. All of which constitutes a fair amount of luck. The fact that he felt it necessary to present murdered children to the king as an act of loyalty is striking, because thus far his lack of actions made him suspicious to rebels and royalists alike.

[Datepalm]

Tywin is a sadistic narcissist with no redeeming qualities. His vaunted rationality and intelligence barely make it to the level of Cercei's 'low cunning'. He's a petty, treacherous, gratuitously cruel war criminal.

[Kittyhat]

Tywin is a sadistic narcissist with no redeeming qualities. His vaunted rationality and intelligence barely make it to the level of Cercei's 'low cunning'. He's a petty, treacherous, gratuitously cruel war criminal.

Wow, you think even less of him than I do! I find Tywin highly overrated, but I'd still rank him above Cersei, who I think also gets very overrated considering how many people believe she was "out of character" in AFFC (suggesting they thought she was somehow smart before then). Whereas from where I was standing, it just looked like she was finally given the rope she needed to hang herself and so promptly and predictably did it.

I totally agree with your first and last sentences, though. Simply being intimidating and having some measure of political acumen does not, in my mind, make you a person with redeeming qualities. And he was most definitely pretty, treacherous and cruel.

[Datepalm]

Wow, you think even less of him than I do! I find Tywin highly overrated, but I'd still rank him above Cersei, who I think also gets very overrated considering how many people believe she was "out of character" in AFFC (suggesting they thought she was somehow smart before then). Whereas from where I was standing, it just looked like she was finally given the rope she needed to hang herself and so promptly and predictably did it.

I totally agree with your first and last sentences, though. Simply being intimidating and having some measure of political acumen does not, in my mind, make you a person with redeeming qualities. And he was most definitely pretty, treacherous and cruel.

I don't think he's got all that much political acumen, tbh. He got lucky by having a big pile of gold and some hot, talented (at fighting, at least) kids he could pawn off in lieu of actually making the alliances and compromises of good politics that would go on for more that five minutes after the royal marriage falls apart. Cercei - the Kate Middleton of Westeros. Only theres no tabloids to profit from the attention.

Honestly, I think discussing ASOIAF intrigue is just a bit facile. Plots and schemes will turn out the way the story needs them to turn out. They're not actually some way to judge how intelligent or competent the character is, except where its clearly signposted that this is something we're supposed to find impressive/dumb. For example, Cercei's over-the-top catastrophic small council selections (which could have all been diamonds in the rough if what GRRM wanted was to be pro Cercei) vs. Tyrion's ferreting out Maester Pycelle with the letters in CoK. (Which is about as sophisticated as Nancy Drew, and on a bad day, but which the story spins to be this brilliant bit of political intrigue.)

Anyway, I think what the story is telling us about Tywin is that he's all surface. His reputation is as a cold, dignified, calculating man. He never smiles! But the reality is pettiness, overreaction, a narcisstic overweening pride, a fondness for gratuitously cruel set pieces of operatic quality melodrama and with a mile wide sideline in sexual weirdness and humiliation a good bit beyond sane, safe and consensual.

We see him through his kids eyes, who are wildly impressed by him - but they're running a close contest for who gets to be the most unbelievable psychological freakshow south of the wall (its something to make dad proud! Maybe he'll love them then?) Judged by his actions rather than by his really cool whiskers, I keep imagining him as some kind of satirical caricature of a villanious, I dunno, french politician. This tawdry, petulant, spoiled, theatrical, vain, status obsessed man who'll throw anyone under the bus to keep up a reputation. Tywin Lannister, in short, is a hysterical diva.