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Defending a Dothraki invasion


wolverine

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As to the points about archers, Dothraki use mainly dragonbone bows, which far outdistance and overpower normal bows. Using a lot of archers isn't going to cut it.

Nope. The dragonbone bow for Drogo was a very expensive bride gift. That isn't the standard Dothraki bow. They most likely use composit bows. And these are roughly the equivalent of Westerosi longbows, but with problems in a rather wet climate like Westeros

The best strategy would be a large scale naval battle while they are trying to cross. Certainly the dothraki would have a significant advantage due to their bows, but with no experience sailing, Westeros would still probably win.

If they did manage to win, the best strategy would be to raid their camps at night. They don't seem to have guards or build defenses, so taking them by surprise is probably the best bet.

If they have neither guards nor scouts out they are even dumber than I thought, and that is a rather big feat.

Also, I think you guys underestimate the Dothraki a little. Robert was worried about peasant conscripts retreating out of panic, and the Dothraki WILL tear apart peasants. Plus, I think Dorne probably would ally with the Dothraki with a Targaryen leading them.

Yes, maybe conscripts would flee a charge. Oh well, a skirmish lost. There is still a whole war to win. And Dorne wouldn't ally with the Dothraki as soon as the Dothraki have gotten a reputation. But still, it is a valid argument, better stop them on the other side. Hunting down the survivors would be a pain in the ass anyway.

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  • 5 months later...

the only hope for westeros would be defeating them at sea. if the dothraki landed unscathed thenit is game over for westeros.

dothraki have longer range of bow.

faster army.

ability to live of land, raid supply lines, choose battle sites, quickly withdraw.

they are all united as one profesional army.

westeros is devided, the kingdoms would strugle to cooperate under there fudel system.

un trained men with poor armor and low moral make the majority of most westeros armies.

in short dothraki win

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Nope. The dragonbone bow for Drogo was a very expensive bride gift. That isn't the standard Dothraki bow. They most likely use composit bows. And these are roughly the equivalent of Westerosi longbows, but with problems in a rather wet climate like Westeros

If they have neither guards nor scouts out they are even dumber than I thought, and that is a rather big feat.

Yes, maybe conscripts would flee a charge. Oh well, a skirmish lost. There is still a whole war to win. And Dorne wouldn't ally with the Dothraki as soon as the Dothraki have gotten a reputation. But still, it is a valid argument, better stop them on the other side. Hunting down the survivors would be a pain in the ass anyway.

WRONG WRONG WRONG. in one of dany's chapters in AGOT she remarks how the kalasar has scouts stretching out in all directions for milles

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WRONG WRONG WRONG. in one of dany's chapters in AGOT she remarks how the kalasar has scouts stretching out in all directions for milles

:shocked: Bright Blue Eyes said that they would be surprised if they didn't have scouts...

How would Dothraki fight armoured knights on horseback?

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I don't think that Illyrio and Varys' plan was to ever rely on the Dothraki. They were a long shot. Either Dany dies eliminating a threat to Aegon's reign while distracting Robert's attention or she brings over some useful fighters. Either way Illyrio gets richer from making the wedding deal (yes he gave away the dragon eggs, but he probably though them useless).

I think that the main plan was the Golden Company headed by Aegon and the Dornishmen brought in by marrying Viserys. While Varys wasn't part of that scheme, I'm sure he knew of it. So that's 10k professional troops and the 20-40k Dornishmen. They might have thought Viserys would have been willing to accept the lesser role as Lord-Protector of Dorne (plus possibly Prince of Dragonstone). We know that Illyrio wanted Viserys to stay with him and Jorah Mormont (Varys' agent) encourages him to return to Pentos (at least in the show, I can't remember the book).

So add to this whatever number Dothraki make it across the Narrow sea. We here the number 10k thrown around, along with 40k.

I see two scenarios with the Dothraki:

1. There's only a few thousand, you supplement your forces with them. Let them have a bit of a rape and pillage.

2. There's Khal Drogo's whole horde. You unleash them separate to your forces and let them terrorize the Kingdoms, while you steadily work North securing the Reach and Stormlands. The Dothraki might eventually starve or be defeated, but every enemy soldier who dies fighting them is one you don't have to face.

Or they're victorious, but there numbers are depleted so you can either wipe them out by betrayal or corrupt and bind them to the Iron Throne, make them like the Cossacks of Russia.

Aegon changed the rules by bringing dragons. Why shouldn Dothraki be different?

Edit: I think the Westerosi would learn quickly. Relying on smaller more disciplined forces. A Hammer (Knights) to smash against an anvil (Pikes and Crossbows).

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nothing better unites a kingdom than invasion from half naked barbarian pillagers and the smallfolk will hate the the dothraki because they rape and loot. so the the westerosi nobility will look like heroes in the eyes of the smallfolk plus the north and the eyrie perfect defensive postions

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:shocked: Bright Blue Eyes said that they would be surprised if they didn't have scouts...

How would Dothraki fight armoured knights on horseback?

three main ways,

lure them deep into your rmy with a feined retreat and then hit their flanks hard using superior speed

shoot the horses

galop away at greater speed to avoid conflict and tiering the western horses while you shoot at them

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Alot of people seem to think that the Dothraki fight like the Mongols. I don't see it that way, for one the Mongols wore intricate suits of scale armor and were known for luring their enemies into ambushes. Everything the books tell us about the Dothraki says that they think armor is for pussies and that anything other than a direct attack is unnecessary and cowardly.

Having the Dothraki as part of a larger, more disciplined army anchored by the Golden Company would be very useful, but if they tried to invade by themselves it would end in a crushing defeat.

Also, Drogo only promised Viserys 10,000 warriors, not the whole horde. I agree with the posters who speculate that Varys and Illyrio never intended for the Dothraki to be their main effort but more of a distraction.

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Yup. They'd basically need to get their control of several major castles and towns to house and feed the Horde sorted straight away if they invaded, because the Dothraki are hopelessly unprepared for a Westerosi winter.

It does bear pointing out that even the Westerosi are not prepared for a Westerosi winter. Except Dorne and the Reach...perhaps the Vale, if Lysa lunacy hasn't stunted their efforts.
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The Dothraki invasion was always doomed and I think that was the point: It was never meant to succeed. In all likelihood, Varys and Illyrio intended for Robert and the Dothraki to beat up on each other, for Viserys and maybe even Dany to die in the process and for Aegon to swoop in and save the day and take advantage of a tenuous political situation. Talking about this invasion like it was ever going to work or ever intended to work, while thought-provoking, is to, I think, miss the bigger picture and the point.

Think of the terrain. The Vale's mountainous, Dorne's a desert, the Riverlands have transport issues, the Iron Islands are, uh, islands, the Westerlands are rocky (how many horses would they lose covering that ground?), they'd have to get through the Neck to invade the North (I'd LOVE to see Dothraki trying to pass Moat Cailin from the south), the Stormlands are desolate and the Reach is the best-populated to defend itself.

But the kicker for me is this. Robert thinks Drogo has 100,000 men in his horde. How many does he actually have? About 40,000, and that's assuming he gets ALL of them safely to Westeros, which probably won't happen. How many men will Robert prepare to face? 100,000. How many men will he actually face? 40,000 at the absolute max and probably much, much fewer than that. Robert is going to overcompensate his forces.

Now, where did Robert get the intel that Drogo had 100,000 men? 99.9% it came from Varys. Why would Varys, if he wants this invasion to succeed, undercount Drogo's numbers by more than half? If Varys wanted the Dothraki invasion to succeed, why not tell Robert to expect, say, 20,000 men when it will really be more like 40,000? Answer: He doesn't want it to succeed. It makes no sense, none at all, for Varys to high-ball the Dothraki numbers to Robert that much ... if he wants the invasion to be successful. Obviously, he doesn't, and when even the architect of the damn thing sets it up to fail before it even happens, there's nothing you can say to "defend it."

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A Dothraki invasion would mean trouble because not meeting them head on would mean rape and pillage for the small folk. A siege would be obsolete because why lay at one castle when there are so many throughout the kingdoms.

And again, I think this is the point. The smallfolk would hate the Dothraki (and the idiot Targ siblings behind them ...) for raping and pillaging, but would equally come to hate Robert and the nobility for letting it happen. Who would swoop in to save the day? Aegon and his mercenaries, taking out the trash.

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The Dothraki invasion was always doomed and I think that was the point: It was never meant to succeed. In all likelihood, Varys and Illyrio intended for Robert and the Dothraki to beat up on each other, for Viserys and maybe even Dany to die in the process and for Aegon to swoop in and save the day and take advantage of a tenuous political situation. Talking about this invasion like it was ever going to work or ever intended to work, while thought-provoking, is to, I think, miss the bigger picture and the point.

Think of the terrain. The Vale's mountainous, Dorne's a desert, the Riverlands have transport issues, the Iron Islands are, uh, islands, the Westerlands are rocky (how many horses would they lose covering that ground?), they'd have to get through the Neck to invade the North (I'd LOVE to see Dothraki trying to pass Moat Cailin from the south), the Stormlands are desolate and the Reach is the best-populated to defend itself.

But the kicker for me is this. Robert thinks Drogo has 100,000 men in his horde. How many does he actually have? About 40,000, and that's assuming he gets ALL of them safely to Westeros, which probably won't happen. How many men will Robert prepare to face? 100,000. How many men will he actually face? 40,000 at the absolute max and probably much, much fewer than that. Robert is going to overcompensate his forces.

Now, where did Robert get the intel that Drogo had 100,000 men? 99.9% it came from Varys. Why would Varys, if he wants this invasion to succeed, undercount Drogo's numbers by more than half? If Varys wanted the Dothraki invasion to succeed, why not tell Robert to expect, say, 20,000 men when it will really be more like 40,000? Answer: He doesn't want it to succeed. It makes no sense, none at all, for Varys to high-ball the Dothraki numbers to Robert that much ... if he wants the invasion to be successful. Obviously, he doesn't, and when even the architect of the damn thing sets it up to fail before it even happens, there's nothing you can say to "defend it."

It's not as common, but having a too large force can be a serious problem too.

Also, I don't see terrain as the issue you do, with the exception of the Neck.

For one thing cavalry are widely used across the rest of Westeros, and for another the type of horse the Dothraki use are either the same as those used in Westeros or, if modelled on Steppe tribes, the smaller, hardier, more terrain versatlile variety.

(I think the Mongol model is really only used in terms of plot and culture...they seem to fight more or less like Germanic tribal cavalry....but if I'm wrong on that the Mongols often faced more than 2:1 numbers and defeated them fairly soundly.)

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And again, I think this is the point. The smallfolk would hate the Dothraki (and the idiot Targ siblings behind them ...) for raping and pillaging, but would equally come to hate Robert and the nobility for letting it happen. Who would swoop in to save the day? Aegon and his mercenaries, taking out the trash.

I don't know if The Golden Company can stop the Dothraki, and Danys force is now made up of Unsullied who defeated the Dothraki before so if they ever invaded I think the Targ to save they day would none other than Dany.

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Also, I don't see terrain as the issue you do, with the exception of the Neck.

... OK. Where are they going to water their horses in Dorne? How are they going to cross the rivers en masse in the Riverlands? How are they going to sack the Iron Islands? How are they going to successfully besiege the Eyrie or even get to it through the mountains?

I don't think it's a coincidence that the Dothraki are used to a flat, grasslands situation in Essos and Westeros doesn't really have comparable geography in that sense, on a large scale. It's one thing to pillage easily when you're wandering around a giant, mostly flat steppe. It's another thing to do it in a climate that's pretty different from anything they're used to. But hey, even if they work out well down south, there's still the Moat Cailin causeway to look forward to.

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I don't know if The Golden Company can stop the Dothraki, and Danys force is now made up of Unsullied who defeated the Dothraki before so if they ever invaded I think the Targ to save they day would none other than Dany.

I'm not talking about the situation NOW, I'm talking about it as it might have occurred early on, before the dragons hatched and when Robert was worried about the Dothraki invading with Viserys. I'm pretty sure THAT is the hypothetical we're discussing. If you want to add in the Unsullied or whatever, that's completely different.

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I'm not talking about the situation NOW, I'm talking about it as it might have occurred early on, before the dragons hatched and when Robert was worried about the Dothraki invading with Viserys. I'm pretty sure THAT is the hypothetical we're discussing. If you want to add in the Unsullied or whatever, that's completely different.

Point made.

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honestly, IF they have the strategy and tactics of the mongols they could win (until winter), and by win I mean constantly harass the enemy and if defeat looks iminent, or if victory is not certain at any one point or battle they retreat, or even fake a retreat to wait for a disorganized pursuit and then attack again like the mongols were famous for. They have the advantage of movement and speed. Just play it like the mongols and they won't lose a battle, granted they won't take a castle either. Also, since they have the huge advantage of movement speed they can just go wherever they want and attack and various points in the 7 kingdoms, and the only option for Robert would be to either A. gather a great army and try to catch them, or B make multiple smaller armies and try to defend and force the dothraki into a trap.

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