[Book Spoilers] Varys and Littlefinger

[Lord Varys]

Since the last episode, the whole Varys/Littlefinger dynamic started. What do you think about that? Do you like that Littlefinger has a vast spy net in the series? Does it makes sense to you that he should know about Illyrio? I've already said elsewhere that this is a most problematic decision in my opinion, as it would surely enable Littlefinger to get rid of Varys entirely...

[Ran]

There's a line in AGoT, I believe, where Littlefinger claims he has some hold over Varys.

I guess the writers decided to show just what that hold is. I find it entirely plausible, really, that he's aware that Varys is toying with supporting Viserys and Daenerys, but even so, he may not fully understand what it means and just sees it as a lever to keep Varys in check with. So long as it doesn't mess up his game, why should he care?

That Littlefinger has his own spies is clear enough in the book, and not really a change.

[Arrogant Bastard]

Since the last episode, the whole Varys/Littlefinger dynamic started. What do you think about that? Do you like that Littlefinger has a vast spy net in the series? Does it makes sense to you that he should know about Illyrio? I've already said elsewhere that this is a most problematic decision in my opinion, as it would surely enable Littlefinger to get rid of Varys entirely...

I really enjoyed the scene between Varys and Littlefinger and I think the actors are doing a tremendous job. I was under the impression in the books that Littlefinger had spies; I think in one of Ned's chapters he thinks about how far Littlefinger has risen and all the different people he has in his pocket. As far as Illyrio, in the show Littlefinger knows that Varys met with him but does Littlefinger actually know who Illyrio is or what he's planning? Also, I'm not sure how this enables him to get rid of Varys, I thought it was clear in the show that both Varys and Littlefinger knew secrets about one another that they could tell the queen and thus decided to stay out of each other's business.

I'm looking forward to more of their scenes in the show. I doubt they'll have another one on one conversation, but I hope they show Varys advising Joffrey to get rid of Ser Barristan, which was just mentioned in passing in the book.

[Vuron]

I thought it was a given in the books that Littlefinger had his own spy network. It stands to reason that if he does, then Varys is going to know about it the same way Littlefinger knew which spies belonged to Varys and which belonged to Cercei in a previous episode.

I posted this in the episode thread, but I absolutely hated this scene. It was great for the coolness factor and seeing the 2 master manipulators go at each other, but it is completely out of character for either one of them to do this. They're masters of secrets and they're not going to stand in a public place and spill their secrets like gossiping schoolgirls. Renly walked in on them and there has to be guards, servants, and members of the court in the throne room, not to mention other spies.

I don't think Littlefinger knowing about the Varys/Illyrio meeting has any impact. Varys easily explained it away after Renly announced that Robert was coming to the small council meeting. He made the snide comment to Littlefinger about not knowing the reason for the meeting and that it was about news from overseas, which he implied came from Illyrio.

[Heal]

The Littlefinger/Varys arch is the most interesting part of the story IMO, but like another poster I agree their one on one convo was a little unrealistic. These are two master manipulaters, probably the smartest guys in the kingdom and they stand in a public throne room and "gossip" was kind of unbelievable to me.

[Xenophon]

Since the last episode, the whole Varys/Littlefinger dynamic started. What do you think about that? Do you like that Littlefinger has a vast spy net in the series? Does it makes sense to you that he should know about Illyrio? I've already said elsewhere that this is a most problematic decision in my opinion, as it would surely enable Littlefinger to get rid of Varys entirely...

I'm loving them. Mayor Carcetti finally has a worth adversary!

As for LF knowing about Varys and Illyrio, I don't think it's as damning as you're suggesting. Even if LF has proof that Varys is in contact with Illyrio, Varys could brush it off as part of his normal spying activity. He could claim that Illyrio is trying to play both sides, and he deems it prudent to keep the lines of communication open. He could even say that Illyrio helped him get Jorah planted in Dany's household, and that Illyrio was spying on her and Viserys when they stayed with him.

[Lord Varys]

Ran,

yeah, we have the famous 'I have his balls in my hand, or would have, if he had any balls' line in AGoT (their talk about the location of Varys' balls in the episode was a smart nod to that line), but he says that to calm Ned and Cat who were rather unsure about Varys knowing everything about the whole dagger affair.

And besides, it would make much more sense if Varys and Littlefinger were together in the Jon Arryn murder - that alone would give them enough leverage over one another. The fact that they played out the whole Ser Hugh story strongly suggests that they intend to keep Jon Arryn's true murderer in the shadows until Lysa reveals it finally. The audience will believe Cersei was behind that one, I think, as did we all after the incest is revealed and Robert is murdered.

I assume they included Littlefinger's line about Varys most likely to remind the audience that the guy talking to Illyrio was indeed Varys.

Littlefinger certainly has spies, as has Cersei. But Varys is the Master of Whisperers. He is the guy the Crown pays for the single reason to maintain a vast spy network. Varys knows everything, and the other guys may know bits and pieces, but they need him to know everything. Else they could fire him, and work with their own spies. The series really portrays Littlefinger and not Varys as the omniscient guy, especially in the last episode with his knowledge about Varys comings and goings and Renly's sexual preferences.

As to Varys involvement in Ser Barristan's dismissal, I strongly expect them to show this during a Council session or a scene with Joffrey. They also might make Joffy a little bit more sympathetic in such a scene, when loudly demands that he wants to punish somebody in retribution for his father's death.

[The Anti-Targ]

I didn't like the conversation much, because it was just a big pissing contest...Oooo I'm a better spy than you! So I thought it was a bit hamfisted the way it was done.

But I think the concept of us knowing that both of them know that the other knows that they know more than they want each other to know is cool and is one of the advantages of the TV show not having to live solely inside the heads of only a few characters.

And then we add Tyrion to the mix in Season 2.