[BOOK SPOILERS] The Battle at the...

[Pink Walder Frey]

We're getting near the point of Eddard's final vision of the battle of the Tower of Joy, when he's imprisoned in the black cells.

So I have seen many opinions on what should have been done in the TV adaption of the Battle at the Tower of Joy, or what not. Many of the readers think that this scene, as a crucial one for the whole back story, should be included into the TV series, as a flashback, while others do not see this as a necessary point to develop the story.

Personally, as a reader, I would love to see this scene, and I think it could give the whole story another dimension - for the readers and for the people, who are new to ASOIAF, who get used to it by the TV series.

We've seen many discussions about the whole story, and what people think to be necessary for it and what not, since the release of ADWD is coming closer and closer these days, and people have very different approaches to it. Some see the whole story and the world, others prefer the storyline(s) of their favorite character(s) or their favorite parts of the story - schemings or warstories, an epic, consitant world, or a even a fight between (kind of) good and evil for some of us -

and many people assigned this to the TV adaption and what they think how this should become.

While this scene is not necessary to carry the whole story on, it could provide two great things:

First of all it could be a real sweet peace of sugar to all of us readers, something many people have been looking for, and what many of us would love to see, no doubt.

On the other side it could bring another dimension to the whole TV show. I, as many other of you, too, have been following the reactions of people, who are new to the whole story, and I was delighted, when I realized that many of them gathered the question of Jon's parentage as an important or even central part of the series.

So providing this scene at the Tower of Joy with Eddard (and maybe even Lyanna) could bring a driving force and a repeating question to the followers of the show, especially, if it was an epic moment, an epic scene.

And well, I really think they could have made it an epic moment - one of the few epic and romantic moments, what have not been provided in the show as yet.

While we have this kind of romantic in the books, when certain characters remember the past, until now the show lacks this romanticism - maybe they'll leave it complety - as some parts of the backstory, or not.

And speaking of epic:

ASOIAF lacks in many ways what people call epic moments in fantasy, without excluding it. George R. R. Martin gives us (in my view) much more of the really epic moments in the small and human situations, that are much closer to us people, and doubtless the show was already able to provide some of this moments, and it also showed us his great abilty to break the expectations of epic developement and to lose the hope for some epic moments (eg with Lady dying), but

some of this moments are still in the story, and I think the Battle at the Tower of Joy is one of this moments, that gives many of the readers really great imaginations, and if it would be provided well on TV, it could give the viewers these, too, and it could prove also much joy and fondness to look forward to the upcoming events and to a final resolution of the mystery.

I have no idea, if this scene will be included - if it was, it would be really necessary to put no previews on it, I think.

I would be really happy to see it - with Eddard in kind of delirium and starting the scene in fog...

but if it wasn't included, well I wouldn'd be too much disappointed, because it does not really hurt the developement of the story, but I would see it as a lost chance for the show to give the readers some love and to catch both, the readers and the (new) viewers.

So what do you think, while a resolution of showing or not showing this scene is approaching?

[Which Tyler]

I suspect that they'd like to put it in there, but not necessarily for season 1 (though possibly)

I think it could be visually awesome.

It's probably very high on the "want to see" lists of all fans (including D&D).

It establishes that Ned really is a great hand-to-hand fighter.

It could be used to introduce - or character develop Howland Reed.

Has great potential for fight scene involving more than sword on sword (I always picture Reed using a spear - or fish spear).

It gives us Sean swinging a sword again - as it is, he's got 1 execution, and 1 fight; many fans would love to see far more.

By putting it into a later season they can give Sean a cameo appearance - I'm sure he'd be willing to revisit for the odd scene or two).

By putting it into a later season, they could get Sean fit again (which would also make him younger-looking).

If R+L=J is true, then it's a great way to give us the reveal, as and when.

Surely if it was this season, we'd have heard casting rumours for Arthur Dayne and Howland Reed.

If they want to put a prologue on each season premier; then this would be absolutely the perfect scene to use. (TBH, I've not read the books in 4 years, so can't recall if each book has a prologue)

[lynxx]

They've done such a good job of re-creating Westeros, that we'd al like to see the Tower of Joy. However, a 10 hr tv series is not going to be as complex and sophisticated as the 1000 pages of book one. I would like to see it almost as much as you would, Pink Walder, but I don't think it's going to happen any time soon.

You mention epic and romance, which is missing from the series so far. When I watch I mentally fill in all of the back story and nuances. Evidently so do you. OK, we're probably not going to see the

tourney with the blue winter rose, or learn that every maiden in the kingdom wanted to marry Rheagar.

either.

It is sooo frustrating not to know know what happened at the Tower. Maybe in July for ADWD, but maybe not.

[Sivin]

They'll have it in there. If not, they risk missing out on a very important part of Ned's character development.

[gbellinator]

I don't think it is likely to have it in there. They haven't cast any of the Kingsguard that were there, and if I remember, they haven't cast Lyanna either. It is one of the great scenes in the books... memorable amongst a great many chapters, but they haven't set any of that up. It would make for choppy TV (for those that haven't read it).

Additionally, the Lyanna portion of that scene would be so hard to do, and then remain as mysterious as it is in the book.

I think the best we get is a cloudy, ferverish family montage, and then a voice out of the fever at the end saying, "promise me Ned." But I doubt we get that either.

[Vuron]

I don't know how you could show the scene without giving away too many answers, yet still making sense.

We still don't know what Howland Reed really did to help Ned, so how are you going to show the battle without answering that question?

You can have Ned and Lyanna having a detailed conversation without confirming or denying R+L=J.

You can't even show Lyanna clearly because it might give away how or why she died.

Showing some cloudy and fuzzy dream would just be horrible and do nothing but confuse all the new viewers. The kingsguard hasn't been clearly defined in the series, so new viewers aren't going to get the significance of why they are at the ToJ. There would be too many new characters to introduce for 1 scene.

Would it even be worth the cost?

If we see it, at all, I'd bet it will be much later in the series if/when Howland Reed ever tells what he knows.

[SerPaulSmack]

I don't know how you could show the scene without giving away too many answers, yet still making sense.

We still don't know what Howland Reed really did to help Ned, so how are you going to show the battle without answering that question?

You can have Ned and Lyanna having a detailed conversation without confirming or denying R+L=J.

You can't even show Lyanna clearly because it might give away how or why she died.

Showing some cloudy and fuzzy dream would just be horrible and do nothing but confuse all the new viewers. The kingsguard hasn't been clearly defined in the series, so new viewers aren't going to get the significance of why they are at the ToJ. There would be too many new characters to introduce for 1 scene.

Would it even be worth the cost?

If we see it, at all, I'd bet it will be much later in the series if/when Howland Reed ever tells what he knows.

These are great points Vuron. No matter how much I'd love to see this sequence visualized, they would never risk spoiling the books.

[The hairy bear]

Yeah, Vuron has it right. I'd love to see the Tower of Joy sequence. Or the Battle of the Trident, or the Field of Fire, or a flasback of the Doom of Valyria for that matter.

It's not going to happen. Fortunately the show is in hand of people who want to make a profitable show that has sense by itself, not a bunch of unconnected cool series to please die-hard fans.

[Pink Walder Frey]

By putting it into a later season they can give Sean a cameo appearance - I'm sure he'd be willing to revisit for the odd scene or two).

By putting it into a later season, they could get Sean fit again (which would also make him younger-looking).

I do not think it would really fit into a later season – even if Howland Reed would appear later, he would not be featured heavy, I think – and as George R. R. Martin said he would be no POV and so a Flashback for him would be unlikely.

Also I think it wouldn't fit the developement of the show to put something into a later season – apart from not knowing how many seasons there will be (and if they'll cover all books), I think they have been putting things from later books into the first season, due to the character and story developement, but I do not see them doing this reverse by putting (much) from earlier books into later seasons, it just wouldn't fit.

If R+L=J is true, then it's a great way to give us the reveal, as and when.

I didn't think about the scene as revealing something – more like the flashback, Ned had in the books after his battle with Jaimie & friends, that didn't show the end. They could also expand the talk a bit and mention Lyanna being hold captive. And even if they would show Lyanna, they could do it with cuts and then, with her dying and the line „I promise“ - I don't say they should do it this way, but it would be a possibilty to show it.

Surely if it was this season, we'd have heard casting rumours for Arthur Dayne and Howland Reed.

If they want to put a prologue on each season premier; then this would be absolutely the perfect scene to use. (TBH, I've not read the books in 4 years, so can't recall if each book has a prologue)

If they had included the scene they just could have not announced the character names and took the actors from other auditions, or just not mention the names, as the roles for Arthur, Howland & co are very small.

OK, we're probably not going to see the

tourney with the blue winter rose, or learn that every maiden in the kingdom wanted to marry Rheagar.

either.

I agree that this would be a greet scene for the backstory, too. But one reason I thought the ToJ scene would realizable was its setting with few characters and nothing but the tower around there – it wouldn't have taken too much budget.

For the tourney would be a much greater and more expensive setting needed (remember it was the greatest tourney of these days and also the backstory gave there very much happening – Jamie, Rhaegar + Lyanna, Knight of the Laughing Tree).

I don't think it is likely to have it in there. They haven't cast any of the Kingsguard that were there, and if I remember, they haven't cast Lyanna either. It is one of the great scenes in the books... memorable amongst a great many chapters, but they haven't set any of that up. It would make for choppy TV (for those that haven't read it).

Additionally, the Lyanna portion of that scene would be so hard to do, and then remain as mysterious as it is in the book.

I think the best we get is a cloudy, ferverish family montage, and then a voice out of the fever at the end saying, "promise me Ned." But I doubt we get that either.

For the first parts see above, for the ladder: Yes, that's how I would have imagined it, too.

I don't know how you could show the scene without giving away too many answers, yet still making sense.

We still don't know what Howland Reed really did to help Ned, so how are you going to show the battle without answering that question?

You can have Ned and Lyanna having a detailed conversation without confirming or denying R+L=J.

You can't even show Lyanna clearly because it might give away how or why she died.

As I said above: It wouldn't be necessary to show more than is in the books (also not Howland helping Ned, because we don't know what happend exactly), but just all what was in Neds dream, and maybe, with cuts, the ending scene with Lyanna.

Showing some cloudy and fuzzy dream would just be horrible and do nothing but confuse all the new viewers. The kingsguard hasn't been clearly defined in the series, so new viewers aren't going to get the significance of why they are at the ToJ. There would be too many new characters to introduce for 1 scene.

Would it even be worth the cost?

Well,, certainly it would be a bit confusing for new viewers to catch it all, but they catched already many things, and on the other hand some other things did not become as clear, as they should (eg who is Bronn, what's his name...).

That's certainly a fair point, but I think you could give it a good balance, when it's a real good scene – as I wrote in the OP – it could give something to the viewers and the readers – when the scene is well done – and even if it would not fit so perfectly for new viewers – would it be worse or less neessary than some of the added sex scenes?

If we see it, at all, I'd bet it will be much later in the series if/when Howland Reed ever tells what he knows.

As above: I don't want something more than in the books revealed, but I don't think the scene would fit later, while Howland wasn't featured too much – in the books it is not necessary to repeat all, but nobody would compain, I think, but in the TV show it would feel odd to me, especially if the scene was shown.

t's not going to happen. Fortunately the show is in hand of people who want to make a profitable show that has sense by itself, not a bunch of unconnected cool series to please die-hard fans.

I never said I want a 1to1 translation to TV – in the OP I told what I think this scene could provide to both, new viewers and readers and I also said that I do not think it would be absolutely necessary to include the scene.

While following the show for the first seven episodes I would doubt that the could be included, as they are following in my eyes kind of a more straight path, with a developement much more orientated to the futere – and I do not think that this is a bad thing for the show, I really love the show thus far.

EP06

And as Ned did not have the dream after the Jaimie & friends attack, there seems only the chance to me that this scene could appear later when Ned's in the black cells, but well, for now I doubt it, but we'll see.

The moment I really thought about this whole scene coming to screen was, when I saw Ned watching Ary and Syrio praticing on TV and then heard the incoming noise of a battle (and I hoped it could foreshadow something ;) ).

Another problem I did not think about in the OP was, that Ned has to be about 14(?) years younger in this scene, what maybe could be done with makeup & CGI (certainly not with another actor for one scene), but I don't know about this ;).

[Prince of the North]

I don't know how you could show the scene without giving away too many answers, yet still making sense.

We still don't know what Howland Reed really did to help Ned, so how are you going to show the battle without answering that question?

You can have Ned and Lyanna having a detailed conversation without confirming or denying R+L=J.

You can't even show Lyanna clearly because it might give away how or why she died.

Showing some cloudy and fuzzy dream would just be horrible and do nothing but confuse all the new viewers. The kingsguard hasn't been clearly defined in the series, so new viewers aren't going to get the significance of why they are at the ToJ. There would be too many new characters to introduce for 1 scene.

Would it even be worth the cost?

If we see it, at all, I'd bet it will be much later in the series if/when Howland Reed ever tells what he knows.

Yes, as others have said, great points! Although I will still hope the ToJ dream gets moved to a later episode/season. While I agree that it hasn't been set up properly yet and may still be too "spoilerific" I think it will likely have to be shown to answer some questions when appropriate ;)

[modehead]

Here's my opinion

Why to include it?

Episode 8 is the perfect time for it. We get to see the main character of the TV show fight once more, and that's always good TV. The dream can happen while he's imprisoned without any structural rewrite. And, best of all, GRRM is writing this episode. So, GRRM could surprise all of his loyal fans and reveal R+L=J (that's the only reason this dream has enough weight to include) in the TV series. Also, Ned's honor stays in tact for the casual viewer.

Why it won't be included:

It's too confusing for non-readers. The weight of R+L=J relies on knowing the family structures of several houses AND the knowledge of the prophecies expoused by characters not even introduced yet. They can easily show Ned taking the baby from his dying sister and promising to raise him right. But, promising to hide his identity because he's actually actually a Targaryen (which would mean his death,) might be too complicated.

I'd love to see it, if it's done right. But, I don't know if it can happen. Can't wait to find out!

[Daenerys]

For me, the problem isn't so much showing the scene, it's showing it now. Because, there is no payoff for at least 3 more books, which would be 4+ years in tv series time. And maybe even after book 5 there's no payoff, we don't know yet. That's just too long to leave that point hanging, it would be completely forgotten by the vast majority of non-reading audience by the time it becomes relevant. I understand we want to see it from Ned, and that time is running out for that. But there's probably some other way to do it later on, maybe from Howland Reed's memory or something, or maybe they just show it from a sort of omniscient eye view. Maybe Bran sees it in the Green Dream. Dunno. But 4+ years between exposition and payoff is too long. This would be a gift to deep fans of the book who have read them multiple times, but add little for everyone else.

[Anaxagoras]

I think it would be possible that we see something about it in the next episode if we're lucky.

I could see them maybe doing something like showing Ned sleeping, see that he's rustling in his sleep and having a fever dream/nightmare. Suddenly he calls out "Lyanna!" Then you could show a quick flash of a pool of blood and Ned holding a black haired baby. Then fade it out with a woman saying "Promise me Ned!" Then he wakes up. They could keep it very vague without spelling too much out by only showing pieces in Ned's mind of what happened. I don't think they have to go into detail about the fight and the lead up to it right now, but I think it would be nice to at least get a couple flashes or glimpses from the perspective of Ned. It would add a long mystery over the course of the series, maybe they could hint at it a bit more each season, or give us glimpses over the course of the seasons until it is eventually revealed through Reed or whoever else Martin is planning on explaining it, we all know that it has to be coming eventually.

[Rikard]

I’ll go out on a limb and predict there will be some reference to Lyanna in Episode 8. The objections that non-readers might be confused and that it would be years before the payoff are, I think, negated by Martin’s own comments about “Lost”,

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/04/11/110411fa_fact_miller?currentPage=5

The mysteries and loose ends were the hook in Lost, what got viewers coming back every season after months/years of speculation. Martin won’t miss an opportunity to introduce what is arguably ASOIAF’s’ biggest puzzle (so far). And it can be done briefly and economically; like in the book no fighting, just dialog and shadow figures. The voices could even be those of current cast members. Of course if there were some sex in the scene there would be no doubt of its inclusion.

[Faint]

I think they'll show it, otherwise, Sean Bean will barely be used for the next couple of episodes.

[Vuron]

AFAIK, Lyanna hasn't been cast, so that might tell us something.

[Rex]

Concerning the casting stuff, when we found out that there was to be a flashback scene of Aerys and Brandon Stark no one had heard about any casting rumours for those character (if I am not mistaken). The parts of most members at the ToJ would be as small as those of Aerys and Brandon.

[axels15]

I have a feeling that even if we don't get TOJ, I think at the very least we'll have some last words of Lyanna to Ned, no?

[Crow's Eye]

Here's my opinion

Why to include it?

Episode 8 is the perfect time for it. We get to see the main character of the TV show fight once more, and that's always good TV. The dream can happen while he's imprisoned without any structural rewrite. And, best of all, GRRM is writing this episode. So, GRRM could surprise all of his loyal fans and reveal R+L=J (that's the only reason this dream has enough weight to include) in the TV series. Also, Ned's honor stays in tact for the casual viewer.

Why it won't be included:

It's too confusing for non-readers. The weight of R+L=J relies on knowing the family structures of several houses AND the knowledge of the prophecies expoused by characters not even introduced yet. They can easily show Ned taking the baby from his dying sister and promising to raise him right. But, promising to hide his identity because he's actually actually a Targaryen (which would mean his death,) might be too complicated.

I'd love to see it, if it's done right. But, I don't know if it can happen. Can't wait to find out!

If R+L does =J, and GRRM reveals it in the opening season of a TV adaptation, I will be pissed. :shocked: Really, if true, this could be called one of the central mysteries of the series. We won't get that info now.

But that doesn't mean you can't have the ToJ battle scene, followed by Ned next to Lyanna's bed of roses and blood with some vague "Promise Me" references. You don't have to show her handing over a child. More hints/scenes can be given over time, such as Jojen retelling the tourney story to Bran, and later dany's vision of Rhaegar's "his is the song of ice and fire" comments. There's nothing wrong with including the scene with the intent of stretching the answer out throughout the run of the show, just as is happening in the books.

I think if we are going to see this scene, however, it has to be now. No one else (save Howland Reed) is still alive to remember it. Having an unconnected flashback scene in a later season, with no connection to a present character, would be incredibly awkward and wouldn't make much sense.

As far as casting goes (and I know it would be sacriledge to most of us), there's no real reason that they had to cast, much less name, the three kingsguard at the ToJ. You could just have three armored kingsguard (much like they way they treat the current ones - helmets but no faces), and they can just repeat the same lines spoken by Hightowner, Dayne etc. So anyone could be a random knight, and you still don't lose the importance of the scene (just a little flavor). And Lyanna could easily have been cast as an unnamed extra, or given the part after she read for another character.

[Aganerral]

There is a possible link to pull in the flashback in a later season that isn't Howland Reed. In the books, Jon has had dreams (or at least a dream) of going into the Winterfell Crypt with the sense that there's something waiting for him there. They could show the dream and then have Jon go into the crypt and find something that Ned left there that explains things, then fade into flashback. Granted, that hits any number of overused cliches :) And it assumes that Jon eventually gets back to the crypts at some point, which hasn't happened in the books as written so far. I know Ned's cautious about the secret so unlikely that he'd have written anything down, but if he did, the Winterfell Crypts would be the safest place to store it - who's going to head down there other than Starks?