Syrio Forel = Jaqen H'ghar?

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Yoren picked the Rorge-Biter-Jaken trio from KL dungeons, presumably just before all hell broke loose there. Meaning, before the Syrio vs Meryn encounter. So how Syrio can be Jaken? Maybe he can change his face, but he can`t be in two places simultaneously.

I've seen that defense posed before, but it doesn't add up for me. Seems to me the timeline supports the possibility that Syrio and Jaqen are the same person. Arya spent quite a bit of time hiding out in Flea Bottom after Syrio is confronted by the Lannisters. At least a few days, unless my memory is shot. I got the impression that Ned was in the Black cells for at least that long. That would mean there was ample time between Syrio's face off with Trant and Yoren leaving King's Landing after Ned's execution. Why would Yoren cart around dangerous prisoners in a cage outside the dungeons days before leaving King's Landing? That doesn't make any sense.

I like the theory myself. Maybe it's just wishful thinking as Syrio was among my favorite characters in the first book.

[George Snow]

I've seen that defense posed before, but it doesn't add up for me. Seems to me the timeline supports the possibility that Syrio and Jaqen are the same person. Arya spent quite a bit of time hiding out in Flea Bottom after Syrio is confronted by the Lannisters. At least a few days, unless my memory is shot. I got the impression that Ned was in the Black cells for at least that long. That would mean there was ample time between Syrio's face off with Trant and Yoren leaving King's Landing after Ned's execution. Why would Yoren cart around dangerous prisoners in a cage outside the dungeons days before leaving King's Landing? That doesn't make any sense.

I like the theory myself. Maybe it's just wishful thinking as Syrio was among my favorite characters in the first book.

I think Syrio is dead. I believe that either Syrio or Trant got out of that room alive, because I think either one would have fought to the death. Since we see Trant later on in the series, that leaves Syrio to be dead.

GH

[Black Crow]

The timeline isn't that critical insofar as while Ned Stark assigned the prisoners to Yoren while he was still in the land of the living, Yoren was forced to hang around waiting and unless he was a complete idiot he will have left the prisoners securely locked up in the black cells until it was time to go.

Prisoner J was one of them, but we're told he had red and white hair. We're not told what he was doing down there but it must have been really baaad...

Enter Syrio, who has survived his encounter with Trant.

We know from Arya's later training that the faceless men can move in the dark as well as any blind man, so the darkness of the black cells will be of no hindrance to him, but as nobody else can see what's going on there changing places (and faces) with prisoner J wouldn't cause him any real problems.

What is also interesting is the question of why GRRM felt it necessary to insert that conversation with Longwaters into the story so long after the event if it wasn't significant?

[Slingingstones]

***Far Fetched Alert***

Just as possible as Syrio becoming prisoner "J" if, Syrio is indeed a FM. Is it not also possible for Syrio subduing Trant and taking Trant's ID and all that entails with Sansa, Joff's wedding etc.?

/End Far Fetched Alert

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

***Far Fetched Alert***

Just as possible as Syrio becoming prisoner "J" if, Syrio is indeed a FM. Is it not also possible for Syrio subduing Trant and taking Trant's ID and all that entails with Sansa, Joff's wedding etc.?

/End Far Fetched Alert

I thought of that as well. I guess it would depend upon the scope of the FM's shape changing powers. Can they just change their facial features or can they truly shape change? It seems to me that Syrio was considerable smaller than Trant. Also, does Syrio know enough about Trant to assume his identity in a convincing fashion?

[Lummel]

I've seen that defense posed before, but it doesn't add up for me. Seems to me the timeline supports the possibility that Syrio and Jaqen are the same person. Arya spent quite a bit of time hiding out in Flea Bottom after Syrio is confronted by the Lannisters. At least a few days, unless my memory is shot. I got the impression that Ned was in the Black cells for at least that long. That would mean there was ample time between Syrio's face off with Trant and Yoren leaving King's Landing after Ned's execution. Why would Yoren cart around dangerous prisoners in a cage outside the dungeons days before leaving King's Landing? That doesn't make any sense.

I like the theory myself. Maybe it's just wishful thinking as Syrio was among my favorite characters in the first book.

The timeline isn't that critical insofar as while Ned Stark assigned the prisoners to Yoren while he was still in the land of the living, Yoren was forced to hang around waiting and unless he was a complete idiot he will have left the prisoners securely locked up in the black cells until it was time to go.

Prisoner J was one of them, but we're told he had red and white hair. We're not told what he was doing down there but it must have been really baaad...

Enter Syrio, who has survived his encounter with Trant.

We know from Arya's later training that the faceless men can move in the dark as well as any blind man, so the darkness of the black cells will be of no hindrance to him, but as nobody else can see what's going on there changing places (and faces) with prisoner J wouldn't cause him any real problems.

What is also interesting is the question of why GRRM felt it necessary to insert that conversation with Longwaters into the story so long after the event if it wasn't significant?

Manhole and Black Crow, the same problem occurs in both of your theories: jaqen & Co are released from the Black cells and transferred to Yoren by order of Ned as Hand of the King. Once Cersei's coup takes place Ned's orders would no longer be valid - he was officially a traitor afterall - therefore the Black Cells three had to have been released to Yoren before Ned confronts Cersei and therefore before Trant turns up to take Arya into custody.

Black Crow,

If Syrio has the skills and capabilities to escape Trant, escape the Red Keep which is swarming with Lannisters killing people, smuggle himself into the Black cells, open a cell, kill the original Jaqen and dispose of his body without any of the regular prison staff noticing that there is anything amiss then why doesn't he just use those same skills to escape Kings Landing? Or if he desperately wants to accompany Arya why doesn't he change his face and join the Black Watch as a volunteer rather than as a prisoner chained to wagon?

***Far Fetched Alert***

Just as possible as Syrio becoming prisoner "J" if, Syrio is indeed a FM. Is it not also possible for Syrio subduing Trant and taking Trant's ID and all that entails with Sansa, Joff's wedding etc.?

/End Far Fetched Alert

OK, but are you happy with the idea of Syrio as Arya's friend also being the man who beats Sansa on command?

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Manhole and Black Crow, the same problem occurs in both of your theories: jaqen & Co are released from the Black cells and transferred to Yoren by order of Ned as Hand of the King. Once Cersei's coup takes place Ned's orders would no longer be valid - he was officially a traitor afterall - therefore the Black Cells three had to have been released to Yoren before Ned confronts Cersei and therefore before Trant turns up to take Arya into custody.

OK, but are you happy with the idea of Syrio as Arya's friend also being the man who beats Sansa on command?

Your debunk needs some citation. I doubt that a minor matter such as releasing condemed prisoners to the Night Watch would be remanded due to Ned's alleged treachery. Keep in mind that Yoren is also recruiting from among the populace as well as collecting prisoners. I find it hard to believe that he's been carting three dangerous fugitives around whilst recruiting.

In regards to the second point, so what? Jaqen isn't exactly noble. He's an assassin. I imagine he would go to much greater lengths than that to maintain his disguise and complete his mission.

[mormont]

Your debunk needs some citation. I doubt that a minor matter such as releasing condemed prisoners to the Night Watch would be remanded do to Ned's alleged treachery.

I don't think this is a minor matter at all. For one thing, the Black Cells are clearly serious business: these are not the place that common-or-garden cutpurses are put. They're for the most serious criminals, including traitors. Which brings me to point two: at the time you're suggesting the removal of the prisoners took place, Ned himself was in those very cells for treason! It simply beggars belief that any jailer would blithely accept the validity of an order signed by one of his own charges, who had been sent there by the Queen Regent.

But in any case, the Longwaters conversation is pretty unequivocal - here's what he says:

"There were three others, common men, but Lord Stark gave them to the Night's Watch. I did not think it good to free those three, but the papers were in proper order. I made note of that in a report as well, you may be certain of it."

(AFFC, p149 of the UK paperback)

Seems pretty clear to me. He even made a report about it, even though the papers were 'in proper order'. It simply beggars belief that he could be talking about releasing these three while Ned was in the cells, particularly as the author goes to some lengths to show us that Longwaters is a fussy, rulebound prig.

Keep in mind that Yoren is also recruiting from among the populace as well as collecting prisoners. I find it hard to believe that he's been carting three dangerous fugitives around whilst recruiting.

Hard to believe, maybe, but again, we pretty much know that's what he was doing. He says so. He was ready to leave, but was told to stay and take Ned too. This simply doesn't fit with the idea that he'd left the prisoners in the cells to pick them up at the last minute - if that was the case, he shouldn't have them with him when he collects Arya. Instead he'd be collecting them and Ned at the same time.

There's really no reasonable doubt here. Yoren collected the three prisoners before Syrio ever fights Trant.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

I don't think this is a minor matter at all. For one thing, the Black Cells are clearly serious business: these are not the place that common-or-garden cutpurses are put. They're for the most serious criminals, including traitors. Which brings me to point two: at the time you're suggesting the removal of the prisoners took place, Ned himself was in those very cells for treason! It simply beggars belief that any jailer would blithely accept the validity of an order signed by one of his own charges, who had been sent there by the Queen Regent.

But in any case, the Longwaters conversation is pretty unequivocal - here's what he says:

(AFFC, p149 of the UK paperback)

Seems pretty clear to me. He even made a report about it, even though the papers were 'in proper order'. It simply beggars belief that he could be talking about releasing these three while Ned was in the cells, particularly as the author goes to some lengths to show us that Longwaters is a fussy, rulebound prig.

Hard to believe, maybe, but again, we pretty much know that's what he was doing. He says so. He was ready to leave, but was told to stay and take Ned too. This simply doesn't fit with the idea that he'd left the prisoners in the cells to pick them up at the last minute - if that was the case, he shouldn't have them with him when he collects Arya. Instead he'd be collecting them and Ned at the same time.

There's really no reasonable doubt here. Yoren collected the three prisoners before Syrio ever fights Trant.

Now that's citation! Still not convinced on the timing, though. Would it be unreasonable to assume that Yoren picked the prisoners up the morning of Ned's "trial" and comes to the Sept with the prisoners believing that he'll pick Ned up at the conclusion of said trial? It seems to me that Ned is in the Black Cells for at least a few days. I find it hard to believe that Yoren would be carting fellows such as Rorge and Biter around for days. Your points regarding the gaoler are solid, but I doubt that Cersei would concern herself with remanding every little order Ned may have made. I imagine she had more pressing concerns at the time.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Oops! Double post.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

The fact that we even have that Longwaters bit 3 books later makes me believe that the matter is of some importance. Who was he talking to?

[Lummel]

Now that's citation! Still not convinced on the timing, though. Would it be unreasonable to assume that Yoren picked the prisoners up the morning of Ned's "trial" and comes to the Sept with the prisoners believing that he'll pick Ned up at the conclusion of said trial? It seems to me that Ned is in the Black Cells for at least a few days. I find it hard to believe that Yoren would be carting fellows such as Rorge and Biter around for days. Your points regarding the gaoler are solid, but I doubt that Cersei would concern herself with remanding every little order Ned may have made. I imagine she had more pressing concerns at the time.

Cersei doesn't have to remand Eddard's order - it's simply not going to be valid once he's arrested. No one is going to release dangerous prisoners on the orders of a dangerous prisoner.

The fact that we even have that Longwaters bit 3 books later makes me believe that the matter is of some importance. Who was he talking to?

Longwaters is talking to Jaime Lannister who is investigating Tyrion's escape from the Black cells.

[mormont]

Now that's citation! Still not convinced on the timing, though. Would it be unreasonable to assume that Yoren picked the prisoners up the morning of Ned's "trial" and comes to the Sept with the prisoners believing that he'll pick Ned up at the conclusion of said trial?

Yes.

Apart from anything else, Yoren is way back in the crowd. The only conceivable reason for having him collect Ned there instead of at the cells would be for public show, and in that case he'd be up at the front. But the notion that they'd do it that way is pretty unlikely anyway.

It seems to me that Ned is in the Black Cells for at least a few days. I find it hard to believe that Yoren would be carting fellows such as Rorge and Biter around for days. Your points regarding the gaoler are solid, but I doubt that Cersei would concern herself with remanding every little order Ned may have made. I imagine she had more pressing concerns at the time.

Again, it's not 'every little order'. This is actually quite a big thing, certainly if it concerns the place where Ned is currently imprisoned.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Yes.

Apart from anything else, Yoren is way back in the crowd. The only conceivable reason for having him collect Ned there instead of at the cells would be for public show, and in that case he'd be up at the front. But the notion that they'd do it that way is pretty unlikely anyway.

Again, it's not 'every little order'. This is actually quite a big thing, certainly if it concerns the place where Ned is currently imprisoned.

That's seems to be a pretty reasonable reason for him to be there. Cersei is into show. Hell, that's the reason this takes place at the Sept in the first place. I don't buy that he'd be in front necessarily.

To the second, I think you're assigning a bit too much importance to the transferring of prisoners. If they were important (political prisoners) I'd be inclined to agree with you, but in the case of casting the dregs off to the Wall? I'm not convinced.

I appreciate your responses. The quote is especially cool. That being said, I guess I just want to believe that Syrio is still with us and an intregal part of this story.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I know that in Martin's world, you can't really believe or know that someone is dead until you actually see them die (or see clear evidence). But I still think that Forel is dead, and that people are attributing far more importance to him than he really has (i.e. elevating him to the same stature as Davos or Brienne, using them as cases where "dead" doesn't mean dead). I don't see how he could be Jaqen, given that H'ghar had been in the King's Landing dungeon for what, like three years? Was he sneaking in and out to give Arya fencing lessons? And if he'd fought his way out successfully, why was Meryn Trant unscathed? He would've had to kill/maim him to in order to get away, surely.

Forel also seems to have a pretty well known reputation; Ned thinks enough of him to hire him as an instructor. He's not some fly-by-night type, and at that point in the story, there's nothing particularly important or exceptional about Arya, nothing that would require a Faceless Man be her tutor.

Bottom line: I think he was an interesting, flamboyant character who served his purpose (giving Arya initial training), died and that's that.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

I don't see how he could be Jaqen, given that H'ghar had been in the King's Landing dungeon for what, like three years?

Where did you get that from? I don't recall any reference to the length of his internment.

As to Forel's reputation and such, perhaps Jaqen had been impersonating him for a number of years...

Back to the Longwater quote, wasn't there some matter of a missing gaoler as well? I can't quite remember the circumstances, but perhaps that plays into the theory as well.

[Black Crow]

I'm not particularly fussed whether Syrio is above ground or not, but this is an interesting debate. Longwaters (who was talking to Jaime by the way) is actually ambiguous rather than unequivocal in listing the prisoners, telling him that before Tyrion was sent down, they had Pycelle and before him Lord Stark and then he goes on to say "There were three others..."

Now yes they were handed over to Yoren on Stark's orders but it doesn't necessarily hold that they were released before he was ready to take them. The wording of the conversation is tolerably vague and the fact that Longwaters was moved to submit a report suggests that there was something going on which required him to cover his own arse. After all if they were only "common men" why should he worry about them if the paperwork was in order?

And we still have to ask why it was necessary to bring them into a conversation in book 4 if they were of no significance?

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

The wording of the conversation is tolerably vague and the fact that Longwaters was moved to submit a report suggests that there was something going on which required him to cover his own arse. After all if they were only "common men" why should he worry about them if the paperwork was in order?

And we still have to ask why it was necessary to bring them into a conversation in book 4 if they were of no significance?

Bingo! I'm not saying that Syrio=Jaqen, I'm just saying that the evidence provided against that possibility here is not conclusive. In fact, I'd say it mostly supports the theory.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Where did you get that from? I don't recall any reference to the length of his internment.

As to Forel's reputation and such, perhaps Jaqen had been impersonating him for a number of years...

Back to the Longwater quote, wasn't there some matter of a missing gaoler as well? I can't quite remember the circumstances, but perhaps that plays into the theory as well.

Honestly I can't remember, but I'm almost positive there was some compelling evidence or quote or something that pointed to H'ghar being in the dungeons at the time Forel was tutoring Arya. Still doesn't explain why a Faceless Man would take on Arya as a student. Jaqen told Arya that he had "promises to keep," and implies that he more or less planned to get sent to the Wall (and he goes to Oldtown as a contingency).

Not everyone has to have some super-secret identity. Sometimes a spade is just a spade and a sword tutor is just a sword tutor.

I think that Forel is one of the characters whose perceived fate is pretty much exactly what it looks like, and people are using their interest in him to fuel speculation long after his intended utility expired, that's all.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Honestly I can't remember, but I'm almost positive there was some compelling evidence or quote or something that pointed to H'ghar being in the dungeons at the time Forel was tutoring Arya. Still doesn't explain why a Faceless Man would take on Arya as a student. Jaqen told Arya that he had "promises to keep," and implies that he more or less planned to get sent to the Wall (and he goes to Oldtown as a contingency).

Not everyone has to have some super-secret identity. Sometimes a spade is just a spade and a sword tutor is just a sword tutor.

I think that Forel is one of the characters whose perceived fate is pretty much exactly what it looks like, and people are using their interest in him to fuel speculation long after his intended utility expired, that's all.

I think it's pretty obvious that he's going to the Wall to consult with Aemon regarding everbody's favorite Dragon Girl.

I'll give you the last point. I would like to believe Syrio is still with us in part because I enjoyed him so much.