Syrio Forel = Jaqen H'ghar?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I think it's pretty obvious that he's going to the Wall to consult with Aemon regarding everbody's favorite Dragon Girl.

I'll give you the last point. I would like to believe Syrio is still with us in part because I enjoyed him so much.

Yes it's obvious that Jaqen has business on the Wall. He wouldn't be going there if he didn't want to. I think he ended up in the dungeons knowing it'd get him sent up north. That has absolutely no bearing, though, on whether he's also Syrio Forel.

[Black Crow]

Yes it's obvious that Jaqen has business on the Wall. He wouldn't be going there if he didn't want to. I think he ended up in the dungeons knowing it'd get him sent up north. That has absolutely no bearing, though, on whether he's also Syrio Forel.

Surely there are easier ways to get to the Wall without getting banged up in the infamous black cells?

[cripples and broken things]

It did cross my mind. Though if it was Syrio I wouldn't expect him to drop out of the story as Jaqen did. Also, the guy in the Kingsguard who was facing Syrio was still alive after the fact. I don't expect an outcome where Syrio would have lived would have allowed his opponent to live too. Unles, he faked his death, but that just doesn't seem like the brave swordsman I'd come to know in the book. I think Jaqen is someone else.

[mormont]

I'm not particularly fussed whether Syrio is above ground or not, but this is an interesting debate. Longwaters (who was talking to Jaime by the way) is actually ambiguous rather than unequivocal in listing the prisoners, telling him that before Tyrion was sent down, they had Pycelle and before him Lord Stark and then he goes on to say "There were three others..."

No, he is unequivocal. He gives a complete listing of all of the prisoners, and that listing goes in reverse chronological order. If you squint really hard you just about might manage to convince yourself that there's a possibility that there was a chronological overlap between Ned and the 'three others', except...

Now yes they were handed over to Yoren on Stark's orders but it doesn't necessarily hold that they were released before he was ready to take them. The wording of the conversation is tolerably vague and the fact that Longwaters was moved to submit a report suggests that there was something going on which required him to cover his own arse.

Longwaters specifies exactly what that was, and what it wasn't. He explicitly states that he made the report because he 'did not think it good to free those men'. Similarly, he is quite clear that there was nothing odd about the paperwork, which would certainly not have been true if it had been issued by Ned but only acted upon after Ned was himself sent to the cells.

After all if they were only "common men" why should he worry about them if the paperwork was in order?

Again, he addresses this directly - because he didn't think it was a good idea to free them. There's nothing odd about this, since the Black Cells are the most serious level of confinement and are rarely used. 'Common men' have to have done something very bad indeed to get sent there. Even Tyrion is sent there only after he is convicted of regicide and kinslaying, not before.

This does lead to the interesting question of what it was Jaqen had done, but we can be quite sure it wasn't attacking Meryn Trant. ;)

And we still have to ask why it was necessary to bring them into a conversation in book 4 if they were of no significance?

It's not the focus of the conversation: it's a passing remark in wider conversation about Tyrion's escape. And although GRRM doesn't frequent the boards, I know he is aware of the theory that Syrio = Jaqen. He may have put this in precisely for that reason. He's done similar things before.

[Lummel]

I think it's pretty obvious that he's going to the Wall to consult with Aemon regarding everbody's favorite Dragon Girl.

Yes it's obvious that Jaqen has business on the Wall. He wouldn't be going there if he didn't want to. I think he ended up in the dungeons knowing it'd get him sent up north.

Er...if you think that in all seriousness then it's obvious that you haven't read ACOK & AFFC. After those books it's obvious that 'Jaqen' has no interest whatsoever in the Wall or anybody who is at the Wall.

And really if you haven't read ACOK or AFFC then avoid these forums because you'll only get spoilered.

[The Anti-Targ]

The one extremely strong piece of evidence that Syrio is dead is the fact that Ser Mandon Moore is alive and unharmed. That leads to the clear and obvious conclusion that Syrio is dead.

However, there's an easy way for Syrio who is Jaqen and Mandon Moore to come out of the fight unscathed AND for Jaqen to change his face: Jaqen changes his face (not necessarily into the Lorathi) in front of Mandon Moore.

Coming face to face with a faceless man would scare the bejeebers out of anyone King's guard included.

Syrion who is Jaqen but not yet Jaqen could then just say "let's not and say you did." and Mandon Moore would take the offer as fast as the piss running down his leg after having seen Syrio who is Jaqen but not yet Jaqen change his face.

Then Syrio who is Jaqen but not yet Jaqen changes into Jaqen after he's alone somewhere and he makes his way to the dungeons.

Besides since when does a faceless man end up in a dungeon but that he didn't want to be there?

Even if Syrio isn't literally dead he is figuratively dead.

[Greywolf2375]

The one extremely strong piece of evidence that Syrio is dead is the fact that Ser Mandon Moore is alive and unharmed. That leads to the clear and obvious conclusion that Syrio is dead.

However, there's an easy way for Syrio who is Jaqen and Mandon Moore to come out of the fight unscathed AND for Jaqen to change his face: Jaqen changes his face (not necessarily into the Lorathi) in front of Mandon Moore.

Coming face to face with a faceless man would scare the bejeebers out of anyone King's guard included.

Syrion who is Jaqen but not yet Jaqen could then just say "let's not and say you did." and Mandon Moore would take the offer as fast as the piss running down his leg after having seen Syrio who is Jaqen but not yet Jaqen change his face.

Then Syrio who is Jaqen but not yet Jaqen changes into Jaqen after he's alone somewhere and he makes his way to the dungeons.

Besides since when does a faceless man end up in a dungeon but that he didn't want to be there?

Even if Syrio isn't literally dead he is figuratively dead.

Do you mean Trant instead of Moore? Or is this a different interaction I'm blanking on?

In either case, why would a Kingsguard piss himself when Arya was effectively only intrigued by Jaqen's change of face?

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Er...if you think that in all seriousness then it's obvious that you haven't read ACOK & AFFC. After those books it's obvious that 'Jaqen' has no interest whatsoever in the Wall or anybody who is at the Wall.

And really if you haven't read ACOK or AFFC then avoid these forums because you'll only get spoilered.

In hindsight, I suppose you're right. If he wanted to get to the Wall he would have proceeded to go their after getting free of the prison wagon.

I made a connection to Aemon because he seems to have more dragon lore than most and I'm assuming that Jaqen has infiltrated the Citadel for dragon lore or for other Dany related reasons.

[A Man]

It seems like the main bit of evidence unique to this thread is from the TV series rather than the books. For me, there was actually a second event on the series that made me question Syrio's fate. On the show, if I remember correctly, we are left with two concurrent implied deaths, of Syrio and of Septa Mordane. Then, in the scene where Joff shows Sansa the spiked heads, we see the Septa's head alongside Ned's, but no Syrio.

And, just to throw my 2 cents in, I definitely don't believe Syrio=Jaqen. Maybe it's just sentiment, and despite that I love both characters (esp Jaqen, obviously) but my image of Syrio doesn't mesh with the Alchemist. Also I honestly don't see any reason why he ought to have survived the confrontation, story-wise. But I definitely see parallels between the training he gives Arya and the training she receives from the FM. It's an indirect sort of training, and both include sensory deprivation. It seems to go beyond what could be written off as Braavosi culture, as most of the bravos seem hot headed and love to fight for no reason, where Syrio and the FM are quite the opposite. Could be significant, or just an echoed theme for Arya's development (she could stand to gain some inner tranquility at times, no?)

Also, my impression is that Jaqen is something of a FM gone rogue. I don't have a ton of reason to believe that, but he doesn't seem to hold to the philosophy or values the Kindly Man is teaching Arya. This idea makes his motivations some of the most interesting to me.

[Yakman]

It seems like the main bit of evidence unique to this thread is from the TV series rather than the books. For me, there was actually a second event on the series that made me question Syrio's fate. On the show, if I remember correctly, we are left with two concurrent implied deaths, of Syrio and of Septa Mordane. Then, in the scene where Joff shows Sansa the spiked heads, we see the Septa's head alongside Ned's, but no Syrio.

then again, Syrio is a foreigner, not a Stark or even a Westerosi. There's little reason to put his head on a pike - and on the show we don't get to see every the face of every head up there anyways. Now, if on the show Syrio had been bald like in the books and there was/wasn't a bald head up there I'd be thinking... but as it is, I'd have to say that him not being up there is no evidence for enything.

anyhoo, I do not believe that Syrio is Jaqen. I do not believe Faceless Men are without error. Perhaps our friendly Faceless Man made some minor booboo and got caught by the Goldcloaks. Rather than compromise his cover (or get stabbed) he goes to the Black Cells. Or maybe his mission was in the Black Cells. Or he's on retainer for Illyrio/Littlefinger/Varys/Tywin/Hodor/Aerys II/insert whoever and waiting for his mission to be told to him. Personally, I'd like to think that he was waiting there for Varys to command him to kill Robert/Eddard when the time is right and throw the Realm into chaos.

Syrio is a Water Dancer, the First Sword of Braavos. We've seen no evidence that a) a Faceless Man would have the skills to fight like Syrio, B) that a Faceless Man would spend the time needed to train a girl in the art of the Water Dance even if he knew how, or c) there's a reason that a Faceless Man would even bother.

I am also somewhat leery of "THE MYSTERIOUS MISSION" that is assigned to Jaqen. He would have no way of knowing that Arya was alive, if he attached himself to the Brave Companions in an effort to find her, and joining a rampaging mercenary company is an odd way of finding a 12 year old girl lost in the woods. He's not even free-ranging to look for her. It appears that he's biding his time with the Companions, not trying to make due on a debt owed to a probably dead girl.

Is Jaqen the Faceless Man in Oldtown? Maybe... but it's a moot point. There's obviously a second Faceless Man in Westeros--the chap who threw Balon off the bridge in Pyke. And to be honest, THEY DON'T HAVE FACES. It could be anybody.

[Errant Bard]

I am also somewhat leery of "THE MYSTERIOUS MISSION" that is assigned to Jaqen. He would have no way of knowing that Arya was alive, if he attached himself to the Brave Companions in an effort to find her, and joining a rampaging mercenary company is an odd way of finding a 12 year old girl lost in the woods. He's not even free-ranging to look for her. It appears that he's biding his time with the Companions, not trying to make due on a debt owed to a probably dead girl.

Jaqen never joined the companions, He got enrolled in Lorch's army. Lorch is a Lannister vassal.

There is no mysterious mission related to Arya, but Lorch was actually free-ranging, and going back to Harrenhal in the end, which is the hub for the Riverlands prisoners, and a good start point for going anywhere or communicate.

So Jaqen stuck with it. Only smart, too, for there are some points often overlooked:

1) How is he supposed to slip out?

2) Once he's a deserter, how is his situation better to look for anyone or move about?

3) How does he eat?

[Yakman]

Jaqen never joined the companions, He got enrolled in Lorch's army. Lorch is a Lannister vassal.

There is no mysterious mission related to Arya, but Lorch was actually free-ranging, and going back to Harrenhal in the end, which is the hub for the Riverlands prisoners, and a good start point for going anywhere or communicate.

So Jaqen stuck with it. Only smart, too, for there are some points often overlooked:

1) How is he supposed to slip out?

2) Once he's a deserter, how is his situation better to look for anyone or move about?

3) How does he eat?

I think my point stands. If he's supposed to be killing someone, someone specific, someone that it would make sense to be hauled to the Wall in chains to get to, then why does he sign on with Amory Lorch? It doesn't make a lot of sense if he was supposed to be going somewhere... because that SOMEWHERE almost certainly isn't Harrenhal.

Additionally, were I a Faceless Man, would I voluntarily be chained to a wagon, where, as it almost happens, some idiot with a torch can set me on fire? Or where the psychopaths I would almost certainly be chained with could kill me if they escaped? I don't think that Jaqen was in the cart voluntarily.

[Errant Bard]

Oh, yes, I totally agree with that. There is no mission that made him get into chains. He did not actually want to go to the Wall. He just was a prisoner.

I was just saying that sticking with Lorch at least until finishing the roundtrip of the Riverlands and getting to Harrenhal is common sense no matter what he wanted to do, be it give himself a chance to find Arya or maximise his evasion options. I mean, what's better to get to raven and the kingsroad: Alone outside castle in a wartorn country, or with a military company headed for those ravens and kingroad?

[dragginstoned]

The leap in logic here lands most people on the rocks of delusion.

Syrio does not have to be a Faceless Man to survive.

I think he did survive. We didnt see his head with Ned's and Septa Mordane's on spikes on the wall. Prickface prince uncharming would have certainly rubbed Sansa;s nose in that one too.

Syrio is alive and on the loose... Somewhere.

That does not mean, and I'm not sold on, him being the Jaqen/kindlyman or any other FM. I think he is somewhere in Braavos... and very much not an FM.

I think his plot twist will be noticing Arya one day (because he sees with his eyes) and being like "arya child! what are you doing with these people. Time to take you back to your family". He is the deus ex machina that gets her out of the FM thing, not further in

[Errant Bard]

I think he did survive. We didnt see his head with Ned's and Septa Mordane's on spikes on the wall. Prickface prince uncharming would have certainly rubbed Sansa;s nose in that one too.

No. Sansa does not know Syrio, and Joffrey doesn't either. It makes as much sens as Saying fat Tom was not killed because we don't see his head on spikes (and Sansa and Joffrey knew that one)

I think his plot twist will be noticing Arya one day (because he sees with his eyes) and being like "arya child! what are you doing with these people. Time to take you back to your family". He is the deus ex machina that gets her out of the FM thing, not further in

Is that you, AvengingAryaFan?

Anyway... What family? and why would he care? and why four years after?

Also "see with your eyes" is about not letting expectations cloud your sensory input, it's not about seeing through the most advanced disguises on the planet to recognize a girl now twelve or thirteen who you knew when she was nine.

This sounds so much like "No, Arya, don't do anything on your own, you need a strong male figure to tell you where to go, and that is under the protection of another male, from your family, he'll take care of you. Oh, also, everything you were shown learning and growing into, it was meaningless, forget it."

DWD stuff:

Meanwhile, of course, there is noone she could really be sent to: Jon is dead/undead or in any case in the middle of civil war and supernatural invasion, and intent on sending her to Braavos (for her protection, oh the irony) if he met her. Bran is "dead", Rickon is with cannibals (and who in his right mind would send her in the care of whoever puppets 6 years old Rickon around?), Sansa is in hiding (and worse, in the care of Littlefinger), Catelyn is "dead" (and otherwise engaged in guerrilla warfare), Benjen, Ned and all the others are genuinely dead, and the more distant relatives... Brynden Tully? MIA. Kastarks? Hahaha. Edmure? In Casterly Rock. The warden of the North? Yeah right. Theon, the prince of Winterfell? Yeah, I can see it.

Her best option would probably be Highgarden or Sunspear, but that's not saying much.

[Starblayde]

As lovely as it would be for Syrio to still be alive, clacking his teeth together and telling Death "not today" while regailing passers by with his tales of the Sealord of Braavos, he's not Jaqen, nor a Faceless Man. There's a slim hope that he's not dead, of course, having water-danced his way past whichever Kingsguard it was (Ser Mandon Moore, iirc?) but he is probably in a shallow grave somewhere, or his bones rest at the bottom of the Blackwater.

An unhappy fate for one of our most-loved characters, to be sure, but not out of line with what happens to most of the characters in this series.

[Errant Bard]

Meryn Trant. Mandon Moore was the one with fish-eyes killed by Pod during the Blackwater.

[Starblayde]

Meryn Trant. Mandon Moore was the one with fish-eyes killed by Pod during the Blackwater.

Thanks, I knew there was an M in there somewhere. Still, one swipe of a longsword in a confined room and Syrio is an ex-Syrio.

[dragginstoned]

No. Sansa does not know Syrio, and Joffrey doesn't either. It makes as much sens as Saying fat Tom was not killed because we don't see his head on spikes (and Sansa and Joffrey knew that one)

Point.

Is that you, AvengingAryaFan?

I actually dont know if thats a poster on this board, or a catagoery of person. But in either event, no.

Anyway... What family? and why would he care? and why four years after?

Because he swore his sword to Ned. That doesnt matter anymore, until he's walking down the street and sees Arya pretending to sell seafood.

Also "see with your eyes" is about not letting expectations cloud your sensory input, it's not about seeing through the most advanced disguises on the planet to recognize a girl now twelve or thirteen who you knew when she was nine.

he was hired as first sword of braavos because he was very very perceptive. Remember his story about the alley cat.

Yes he would recognize her if he saw her on the streets of Braavos pretending to be an urchin. Noticing people pretending to be something else is in the job description of being a bodyguard in a city famous in part for sneaky assassins.

This sounds so much like "No, Arya, don't do anything on your own,

Oh, and working for the faceless men she is "on her own".

you need a strong male figure to tell you where to go,

Yeah, she needs the kind looking guy who runs the secret assassin society in the basement of the temple of the death god cult to tell her what to do and who to kill. Yeah... thats liberatory independence.

Would you like a cup of milk with that?

and that is under the protection of another male, from your family, he'll take care of you. Oh, also, everything you were shown learning and growing into, it was meaningless, forget it."

Yeah... because being brainwashed to murder people for money by a death cult is "learning and growing". Because after to make a vow to someone to protect and educate their 9 year old, you find out she's being pimped to murder people for profit by some wacky cult, you just smile and say... "ah they do just grow up so fast..."

DWD stuff:

Meanwhile, of course, there is noone she could really be sent to: Jon is dead/undead or in any case in the middle of civil war and supernatural invasion, and intent on sending her to Braavos (for her protection, oh the irony) if he met her. Bran is "dead", Rickon is with cannibals (and who in his right mind would send her in the care of whoever puppets 6 years old Rickon around?), Sansa is in hiding (and worse, in the care of Littlefinger), Catelyn is "dead" (and otherwise engaged in guerrilla warfare), Benjen, Ned and all the others are genuinely dead, and the more distant relatives... Brynden Tully? MIA. Kastarks? Hahaha. Edmure? In Casterly Rock. The warden of the North? Yeah right. Theon, the prince of Winterfell? Yeah, I can see it.

Her best option would probably be Highgarden or Sunspear, but that's not saying much.

He would discover those little pitfalls along the way no doubt, and probably try to find the Blackfish once he got her to westeros and looked around. Not saying its an easy job, but.... He's Syrio Forrell, you will be speaking about him with more respect

[Errant Bard]

Because he swore his sword to Ned.

When? Can you give a quote or a reference? In my book, Ned hires him as "dancing" master, period. No oaths, no nothing.

he was hired as first sword of braavos because he was very very perceptive. Remember his story about the alley cat.

Yes, that's the point, he saw what everyone else saw, but he didn't let his expectations blind him. It was not a feat of vision, it was a feat of analysis.

Yes he would recognize her if he saw her on the streets of Braavos pretending to be an urchin. Noticing people pretending to be something else is in the job description of being a bodyguard in a city famous in part for sneaky assassins.

Yes, and it does not mean that bodyguards can see through the perfected FM disguise which was made precisely so nobody would see through. Not the keen, not the perceptive, not the powerful, noone.

Not that Arya looks like she did four years ago anyway.

Oh, and working for the faceless men she is "on her own".

I thought we were talking of Arya leaving the FM? Are you playing dumb or something?

Yeah... because being brainwashed to murder people for money by a death cult is "learning and growing".

... Yes, it is learning and growing, even if you don't like the direction of that growth, but it's more than that, it's Arya being older, relying on herself, having a load of new knowledge and skills, and important experiences in some areas. It's also her being a main character, with a story arc buildup needing to not be useless.

What you're proposing is that she needs a chaperone and can't make her own decisions. That she be reduced to being a Myrcella. It's funny when you don't even envision, in my response, the possibility I might have been speaking of an Arya without some male protector, FM or Syrio or whatever.

you find out she's being pimped to murder people for profit by some wacky cult, you just smile and say... "ah they do just grow up so fast..."

Considering braavosi worship the temple, that Syrio was braavosi, and that he never swore anything to Ned (and even if he did, he's no knight), yes, he would smile. If he wasn't dead, and if there was even a remote possibility that a mundane could see through FM's faces.

He would discover those little pitfalls along the way no doubt, and probably try to find the Blackfish once he got her to westeros and looked around. Not saying its an easy job, but.... He's Syrio Forrell, you will be speaking about him with more respect

Nah, a creep who abandons a girl in the middle of a civil war and suddenly decides to chuck her to her nearest relative after a chance encounter, four years later, is not worthy of respect, only of scorn. Good thing it's not how it goes and he's dead.

Beside I can just imagine that story arc for Arya... more travelogue, just what we needed. Relevance to the actual story of everyone else? Zero.