Hirgon Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 Or, I guess a better way to put it would be, "Was Shae always just a whore?"Did she betray Tyrion because she was just in it for the money, and Tywin made a better offer? Or was she legitimately afraid being executed? Her last scene leaves it unclear (although it does demonstrate that she's a great actor). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lupigis Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 What about Tywin Lannister could give anyone the impression that he would hesitate even a second to kill/torture a prostitute who refused to give the testimony he wanted her to give?Of course she was legitimately afraid! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millardkillmoore Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 I think she was just in it for the money. If you recall Tyrion's chapters with Shae, she always asked him for jewels. She seemed pretty shallow. I figure that the money motivation fits her personality best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight Of Winter Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 From Cersei's POV in AFFC we find out that she promised Shae good mariagge and maybe money (I don't remember) in exchange for her testimony against Tyrion. Well, Shae did her part and was probably expecting Cersei to do hers. Alas, Tyrion interrupted it.Obviously, she had no great affection for Tyrion and decided to switch to Cersei once Tyrion was not in a position of power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shinytoyrobots Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 I'm sure she was afraid, and legitimately so. But also I doubt she had any particular feeling for Tyrion. She's just going for the best deal she can get. She starts out as a random camp-follower prostitute, then she manages to hook up with the son of the post powerful noble family in Westeros. Pretty good deal. Not such a good deal when he's touted for treason, particularly if she realizes she can hook up with the head of that powerful noble family instead (albeit if Tyrion hadn't killed Tywin, she probably would have realized pretty quickly that Tywin likely had no feeling for her and would have tossed her aside without thought).Tyrion *kind* of knows this throughout. He just wants to convince himself otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spring Bass Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 Shae was Tyrion's whore, not his wife. She was under no obligation to stick with him once his ship started sinking, and from what I remember of ASoS, Cersei likely got her to witness through a combination of threats and promises (we hear from Cersei that she's interrogating Sansa's maids). I don't blame her for witnessing, although I think her testimony was over-the-top humiliating to Tyrion (and likely the biggest reason why he murdered her in his escape).Tyrion *kind* of knows this throughout. He just wants to convince himself otherwise. Exactly. It's his fault, too. He explicitly hired Shae to be a fantasy girlfriend (re-read his requirements of her in AGoT), but he ultimately wasn't able to separate the fantasy from reality except during brief moments of despair and bitterness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viking Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 I think it is obvious that Cersei outbid Tyrion for Shae's loyalty. Cersei was bidding for Sansa's maid, which means (to me at least) that Cersei had no intention of paying off Shae as promised for services delivered, which she didn't. Tyrion limited he promises to what he could deliver, like a good Laninster, Cersei does again and again make promises she can't or has no intention of keeping. How Shae ended up in Tywin's bed is a better question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Human Abstract Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 Shae was Tyrion's whore, not his wife. She was under no obligation to stick with him once his ship started sinking.Was she under any obligation not to perjure herself at his murder trial? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errant Bard Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 Shae is in it for the money and is probably also looking to not piss off those in control right now. But I think there is also revenge playing a role. Tyrion took from her everything he had paid her before, made her take a job she explicitly told him she didn't want, and never gave her anything more than promises, while still fucking her. Of course, the girl is also pretty dumb and shallow.I'll ask one question, this being say: What reason would she have to not turn on Tyrion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lupigis Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 Was she under any obligation not to perjure herself at his murder trial?This is where the fear comes in. What would have happened to Shae if she had told the truth? IMO gang rape followed by murder seems very likely! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Human Abstract Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 This is where the fear comes in. What would have happened to Shae if she had told the truth? IMO gang rape followed by murder seems very likely!I don't bring this up as a way of underscoring Tyrion's failings. I think he even knows that Shae doesn't really love him, but intentionally lies to himself.However, the tone above suggested we were letting her off the hook. If we imply that Shae really did nothing evil in lying her little ass off at the murder trial that could easily have resulted in Tyrion's demise ... well that I'm not buying. Sorry, but she dug her own well deserved grave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spring Bass Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 Shae is in it for the money and is probably also looking to not piss off those in control right now. But I think there is also revenge playing a role. Tyrion took from her everything he had paid her before, made her take a job she explicitly told him she didn't want, and never gave her anything more than promises, while still fucking her. That's a good point. He wasn't paying her for her services throughout ASoS, but she still stuck with him, probably out of hope for advancement and fear of being turned out on to the streets. She really didn't owe him anything.If we imply that Shae really did nothing evil in lying her little ass off at the murder trial that could easily have resulted in Tyrion's demise ... well that I'm not buying. Sorry, but she dug her own well deserved grave. I don't think Shae deserved to die just because she gave bad testimony at Tyrion's trial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lupigis Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 However, the tone above suggested we were letting her off the hook. If we imply that Shae really did nothing evil in lying her little ass off at the murder trial that could easily have resulted in Tyrion's demise ... well that I'm not buying. Sorry, but she dug her own well deserved grave.So, what would you do yourself if you were in the power of a violent ruler who could have you tortured and killed on a whim and said ruler told you to commit perjury or else?Tell the truth and face the consequences? Me, I'd lie through my teeth! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Human Abstract Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 I don't think Shae deserved to die just because she gave bad testimony at Tyrion's trial.I think that's a valid opinion. However, I do take exception to "She really didn't owe him anything". I think that's not totally relevant. What she did was fundamentally wrong. Admittedly, we lack the inside scoop. Perhaps she simply lacked moral courage. But Tyrion lacked the real story as well. I guess the only point of my bringing this up is that I am able to still view Tyrion as a "not evil" guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monday Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 Why the hell not!? She was a prostitute giving him the girlfriend experience. That's what he wanted, that's what he PAID for. She didn't trick him, he tricked himself. Do you blame Bronn for not defending Tyrion? Doubt it. He is a sellsword. She is a working girl. Tyrion tipped her with jewelry and then TOOK IT BACK. He had her set up in a mansion and the took it away and made her WORK AS HIS WIFE'S MAID!! Do you think that might have soured her a bit?Tyrion can be so damn obtuse. Did he think she would stick her neck out for him? Did he think there was some kind of prostitute-client confidentiality? He's a clown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Human Abstract Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 So, what would you do yourself if you were in the power of a violent ruler who could have you tortured and killed on a whim and said ruler told you to commit perjury or else?Tell the truth and face the consequences? Me, I'd lie through my teeth!We only know Tyrion's perspective, though. But, as I said above, I'll admit that certainly her secret failing could be a simple lack of courage. My concern, however, is the interpretation of Tyrion's character based on how he behaved there. Was it merely emotional anguish or did he have reason to feel it was deserved? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Human Abstract Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 Why the hell not!? She was a prostitute giving him the girlfriend experience. That's what he wanted, that's what he PAID for. She didn't trick him, he tricked himself. Do you blame Bronn for not defending Tyrion? Doubt it. He is a sellsword. She is a working girl. Tyrion tipped her with jewelry and then TOOK IT BACK. He had her set up in a mansion and the took it away and made her WORK AS HIS WIFE'S MAID!! Do you think that might have soured her a bit?Tyrion can be so damn obtuse. Did he think she would stick her neck out for him? Did he think there was some kind of prostitute-client confidentiality? He's a clown.It's got nothing to do with her defending him or not. She lied knowing it would get him killed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errant Bard Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 So, let's get this straight: Tyrion has people killed of his own will (Allard Deem, Symeon Silvertongue) and it's cool, he's not evil, but Shae merely plays a role in a trial and she is evil and deserves to die? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Human Abstract Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 So, let's get this straight: Tyrion has people killed of his own will (Allard Deem, Symeon Silvertongue) and it's cool, he's not evil, but Shae merely plays a role in a trial and she is evil and deserves to die?I have no idea. I guess we can dredge up those events and discuss whether they make him evil or not. However, Shae does not merely play a role in a trial. If you lie at someone's murder trial to get them convicted that is an inherently immoral act. Can we not agree to that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monday Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 It's got nothing to do with her defending him or not. She lied knowing it would get him killed.The question was why did Shae betray Tyrion. I'm saying why wouldn't she betray him. He treated her terribly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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