Why did Shae betray Tyrion?

[The Human Abstract]

The question was why did Shae betray Tyrion. I'm saying why wouldn't she betray him. He treated her terribly.

That's an interesting point.

[Hirgon]

So, let's get this straight: Tyrion has people killed of his own will (Allard Deem, Symeon Silvertongue) and it's cool, he's not evil, but Shae merely plays a role in a trial and she is evil and deserves to die?

Yes. Tyrion is an interesting character, and therefore is not evil. Wait a minute...I see what you did there.

Both characters did evil things, but both had their reasons for doing those things. The judge and jury on how morality works in Martin's world is still out, so I'm not prepared to make a call on either character yet. Read that, all ye folk who think I'm flaming Shae!

[Errant Bard]

However, Shae does not merely play a role in a trial. If you lie at someone's murder trial to get them convicted that is an inherently immoral act. Can we not agree to that?

Sure. It's just, if she deserves to die for that (as you yourself wrote earlier), then Tyrion deserves to die ten times over before that, so lying to get him convicted is alright: he deserves it.

[The Human Abstract]

Just as a followup, what does Tyrion do to Shae that is cruel? I may need my memory refreshed on some things.

[The Human Abstract]

Sure. It's just, if she deserves to die for that (as you yourself wrote earlier), then Tyrion deserves to die ten times over before that, so lying to get him convicted is alright: he deserves it.

From her perspective? I dunno. I may need to have you elaborate.

[Errant Bard]

Just as a followup, what does Tyrion do to Shae that is cruel? I may need my memory refreshed on some things.

Use her as a sex toy, abuses her when he feels like it (see: the slap, probably a turning point of their relationship), takes back everything she worked for, put her in a position she never wanted, put her in danger of death, maybe?

If you mean emotional cruelty, there is not much he can do, since Shae doesn't actually care for him. Him being hurt by her not loving him is entirely his fault.

[The Human Abstract]

Use her as a sex toy, abuses her when he feels like it (see: the slap, probably a turning point of their relationship), takes back everything she worked for, put her in a position she never wanted, put her in danger of death, maybe?

If you mean emotional cruelty, there is not much he can do, since Shae doesn't actually care for him. Him being hurt by her not loving him is entirely his fault.

Hmm.. interesting. I guess I never saw those incidents with the same weight. Possibly my own cognitive dissonance when it comes to enjoying Tyrion's character.

[Monday]

I have no idea. I guess we can dredge up those events and discuss whether they make him evil or not.

However, Shae does not merely play a role in a trial. If you lie at someone's murder trial to get them convicted that is an inherently immoral act. Can we not agree to that?

She is basically his sex slave. He has Bronn basically ubduct Shae from her previous client's tent. Not only does he not pay her (or take back everything he did pay her). He makes her his wife's domestic servant. If Shae wanted to be a maid, she would have been a maid as opposed to a whore. Then not only does he make her a maid, but he still makes her fuck him and again, I stress, doesn't PAY her for it. He acts with little regard for her life or safety (Alayaya's beating was meant for Shae). Shae has very few options. She sees a way out and jumps on it. Good for her.

ETA: Cross posted Errant Bard. Agree with him 100%

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

So, let's get this straight: Tyrion has people killed of his own will (Allard Deem, Symeon Silvertongue) and it's cool, he's not evil, but Shae merely plays a role in a trial and she is evil and deserves to die?

People put themselves through the weirdest contortions to prove Tyrion is guiltless, simply because they like him and would be uncomfortable if he really was "a bad guy".

Here's the deal with Tyrion. He's not a white character. He's super, super grey. He's capable of both great kindness and great evil. Plus, people can definitely be very likeable while still being nasty. In fact some of the nastiest slimiest people are very personable - it's that talent with people that gives them the opportunity to gain power.

As for whether Tyrion's attack on Shae was a crime of passion or cold retribution for her evil acts of perjury, it was definitely a crime of passion. He killed her because he was ANGRY at her - I think mostly he was angry that she had slept with Tywin, and the testimony had little to do with it. In fact Tyrion thinks to himself when he hears the testimony that he should of expected it, and he didn't really blame her.

[Hirgon]

Just as a followup, what does Tyrion do to Shae that is cruel? I may need my memory refreshed on some things.

Nothing. She was paid to be a whore. You could count not marrying her even though she insisted a couple of times. Then there was not letting her go to Joffrey's wedding, on the grounds that she would be executed if caught. Oh, and he made her hide her fine clothing and pose as a lady's maid, on the grounds that it was the best way to hide her and she would be executed if caught.

The only way any of Tyrion's actions could be construed as cruel would be if Shae were a complete dolt. Choking her to death was cruel, but that doesn't count here.

[Jon Lannister]

I think it was for both things. She was afraid and she would get a great deal of money

[The Human Abstract]

People put themselves through the weirdest contortions to prove Tyrion is guiltless, simply because they like him and would be uncomfortable if he really was "a bad guy".

Here's the deal with Tyrion. He's not a white character. He's super, super grey. He's capable of both great kindness and great evil. Plus, people can definitely be very likeable while still being nasty. In fact some of the nastiest slimiest people are very personable - it's that talent with people that gives them the opportunity to gain power.

I don't think he's "good" for sure. I just never regarded him as "evil" before either.

Some of his actions being brought up as evil, I have an opinion on... I don't necessarily agree. But to go through and discuss each one might get outside the scope of this thread. And I'm not sure it's worth it.

I do agree wholeheartedly that passion was involved in his crime. But I did think Shae being involved in his big setup with Tywin stoked his fires for sure.

[Hirgon]

Errant Bard & Squire:

Shae was probably paid in something other than jewels or clothes. Say a regular salary of gold that we're not told about because it's assumed whores are paid (a Lannister always pays his debts). Tyrion took action to keep Shae safe; had she felt being a maid was a huge change from her contract, she could have left at any time. Also, she gave every indication that she was still interested in sleeping with Tyrion after moving from the manse.

I agree that she saw a way out and took it, but that way out meant saving herself from death more than anything else.

[Errant Bard]

From her perspective? I dunno. I may need to have you elaborate.

No, from *our* perspective.

You say lying at a trial to get someone killed is immoral (and apparently reason for being executed). So I just have to put this in perspective: this is lying at a trial, ie just helping out, not deciding to kill him alone, and it's done only the once.

For contrast, Tyrion does not merely lie at trials, no: he circumvents trials altogether and kills directly. Several people. Among other things: he lies too, and schemes too, a great deal.

In essence, what Tyrion does is worse than helping condemn someone to death, because he doesn't merely help, and he does it several times... so if helping condemn someone to death deserves capital punishment, he too deserves it many times over.

[Lupigis]

She is basically his sex slave. He has Bronn basically ubduct Shae from her previous client's tent.

This. In addition, when Tyrion gets sent to Kings Landing, he doesn't ask Shae if she wants to come, he tells her that he is going to take her there. She doesn't get to choose.

[Monday]

Just as a followup, what does Tyrion do to Shae that is cruel? I may need my memory refreshed on some things.

-Not paying her for services provided

-Taking back what he did pay her

-Insulting her by making her serve his wife

-Endangerng her life

-Not letting her have any input about where she wouldf live, what she would be allowed to do, etc.

-Took her away from her life and made her lie and live a false identitiy, and all so she could suck his disgusting dick for free.

[The Human Abstract]

I have to say one thing I'm enjoying is the number of people saying:

a) What Tyrion did was ok. It was just a business arrangement.

or.

B) What Shae did was ok. Their relationship was just a business arrangment.

[The Human Abstract]

-Not paying her for services provided

-Taking back what he did pay her

-Insulting her by making her serve his wife

-Endangerng her life

-Not letting her have any input about where she wouldf live, what she would be allowed to do, etc.

-Took her away from her life and made her lie and live a false identitiy, and all so she could suck his disgusting dick for free.

So are we saying she had no choice in the matter?

[Hirgon]

-Not paying her for services provided

What evidence do you have that she wasn't paid? She was paid to be a regular thing. The fact that we don't see Tyrion give her money every time doesn't mean a thing.

-Taking back what he did pay her

Those were bonuses. His reasons for "taking them back" were sound.

-Insulting her by making her serve his wife

She chose to serve, so it must not've been that great of an insult. Either that, or the pay was good enough.

-Endangerng her life

Yep, this one was pretty bad. He made every effort to save it, though.

-Not letting her have any input about where she wouldf live, what she would be allowed to do, etc.

-Took her away from her life and made her lie and live a false identitiy, and all so she could suck his disgusting dick for free.

She had input. She could have said, "No," but she chose not to. He must've paid a lot for that. Her life before Tyrion consisted of irregular business arrangements; if anything, she gained from this. Again, there is no indication that she wasn't paid.

[Monday]

Errant Bard & Squire:

Shae was probably paid in something other than jewels or clothes. Say a regular salary of gold that we're not told about because it's assumed whores are paid (a Lannister always pays his debts). Tyrion took action to keep Shae safe; had she felt being a maid was a huge change from her contract, she could have left at any time. Also, she gave every indication that she was still interested in sleeping with Tyrion after moving from the manse.

I agree that she saw a way out and took it, but that way out meant saving herself from death more than anything else.

Where did it say he paid her gold? Do you think she had an account at the Bank of Braavos where she kept this gold while she scrubbed floors? I believe Tyrion took eveything of value away from her, even her clothes when he made her start serving Lolys, so her cover wouldn't be blown. Shae told him that she wasn't cool with that, but he didn't listen. He didn't give any regard to her feelings or rights. IMO he stole from her.

ETA - Who cares if a Lannister always pays his depts? How many hookers do you know of that work for IOUs?