Stannis for King!

[Chalky]

Reading Mo Ryan's episode re-caps, a quote sprung out at me:

"There's a sense of sadness as these grand old ideas about chivalry go by the wayside, but as Renly points out, the good old days may never have truly existed, not in the idealized way that Robert recalls. In any event, it's hard not to think that those with most gold, the scrappiest spirit and the fewest morals are best equipped for the coming storm.

There may be a leader out there who possesses the practical nature, the cunning energy and the moral backbone that Westeros needs right now, but... well, Arya's too young to rule. So the dung is bound to hit the fan pretty soon."

I know Stannis isn't very popular, but that sure does sound tailor made for his CV.

Pardons if this has been discussed before

[A'shaman]

I agree. Can't wait to see him in season two.

[Dornish]

Yeah he's got a moral backbone until he gets backed into a corner, then fuck morality he'll assassinate his brother, murder a child, whatever it takes. He's also a whiny crybaby with no personality. I bet when he was young he complained about girls liking jerks and not "nice guys" like him. In the Game of Thrones Stannis is the sore loser think's he's hot shit, but cheats when he starts to lose, then flips the board and storms out when you catch him.

[mcb]

Reading Mo Ryan's episode re-caps, a quote sprung out at me:

"There's a sense of sadness as these grand old ideas about chivalry go by the wayside, but as Renly points out, the good old days may never have truly existed, not in the idealized way that Robert recalls. In any event, it's hard not to think that those with most gold, the scrappiest spirit and the fewest morals are best equipped for the coming storm.

There may be a leader out there who possesses the practical nature, the cunning energy and the moral backbone that Westeros needs right now, but... well, Arya's too young to rule. So the dung is bound to hit the fan pretty soon."

I know Stannis isn't very popular, but that sure does sound tailor made for his CV.

Cunning energy? Stannis? You're jesting, certainly.

And Melisandre seems to have his moral backbone wrapped around her toes. For example, he seemed to be more and more convinced to burning his nine-years-old nephew alive "for the greater good". I'm not impressed.

[Vuron]

We have to assume pre-Melisandre days because all bets are off after she shows up.

I think that phrase describes Stannis pretty well and he would have been a good king. He wouldn't have been a popular king and, like Ned, wouldn't have lasted long in the game of thrones. I believe the kingdom would have been stable under his rule, be he would be the type that ruled with an iron fist and made no exceptions.

[Hirgon]

Stannis would make a horrendous king, both before and after Melisandre.

He thinks everyone should just fall down at his feet because it's his right, and has no idea how to win people, which is something he would have to do if he wanted to hold the kingdom together after wresting the Iron Throne from the perceived rightful heir. A moral backbone is necessary in a king, but all Stannis has is a just spirit. Justice is necessary in a king, but the justice of Stannis Baratheon, which is not tempered by mercy, approaches mere cruelty. Stannis is not practical, and not at all cunning.

Davos the Onion Knight would make a better king than Stannis Baratheon.

[zmflavius]

Davos the Onion Knight would make a better king than Stannis Baratheon.

Davos the Onion Knight has been Stannis's chief advisor for most of ACOK, and with good reason.

[Lady Disdain]

Personally, I think Stannis would be an ineffective, if not a terrible king. I don't think he's even the slightest bit cunning, and as is pointed out in the books, he's utterly inflexible (unless you're a beautiful red headed sorceress) to the point of being brittle. Master of laws? Perhaps, but not a king.

And I find his sense of entitlement maddening. The position may pass to him by blood, but a united seven kingdoms is a fairly recent phenomenon. Aegon bound them together with conquest and his heirs held them with dragons. Robert held them together after the rebellion with the power and political acumen of his allies, as well as his own popularity. If Stannis can't find it in him to keep the realm united, then he has no claim to the iron throne. /rant/

[j52y]

I do think that Renly would've made a good king. I remember wishing that Stannis would just put his pride aside and join Renly, but ASoIaF wouldn't be as good as it is if Martin did things like that.

[Yarl Snow]

I don't think Stannis would make a good king, but after reading the passage on Dragonstone, when Ser Axell Florent wanted to sack Lord Celtigar's holdfast Claw Isle, and Davos opposed him, I could not help starting to like the man. "I shall bring justice to Westeros. A thing Ser Axell understands as little as he does war. Claw Isle would gain me naught... and it was evil, just as you said. Celtigar must pay the traitor's price himself, in his own person." After which he made Davos his hand, because he wants to hear the truth, even if he does not like it.

Stannis is bitter, he has always had a brother that could outshine him, but the man does know the meaning of honor. Even when it comes down to making the hard decisions, such as sacrificing one boy to save thousands of people. As an individual, or as a reader, such a decision seems insane and cruel, but as a king, it might seem as cruel to allow thousands to die. He did have proof of Melisandre's claims: The leeches with blood worked their poison, and her "prophecy" of Renly's death, among other things came true.

Melisandre moved closer. "Save them, sire. Let me wake the stone dragons. Three is three. Give me the boy."

"Edric Storm," Davos said.

Stannis rounded on him in a cold fury. "I know his name. Spare me your reproaches. I like this no more than you do, but my duty is to the realm. My duty..." He turned back to Melisandre. "You swear there is no other way? Swear it on your life, for I promise, you shall die by inches if you lie."

I just love it when Stannis shuts "Lord" Slynt up at the Wall. Had he been a more political creature, he might have seen some use in him. But Stannis is not like that, he tells it like he sees it, and damn the consequences.

He killed Renly, yes, but on the other hand, Renly was set on doing the same to him. Stannis did not do it out of spite, he did it to win Renly's army, and because Renly was, in fact, a traitor. He knew Stannis was the rightful king, but he wanted the crown for himself, for nothing but personal gain. Melisandre led him there, to win an army.

Even after winning this army, he is sardonic about their flimsy loyalty. He knows what they are, but he needs them.

I don't know about you, but I really enjoy Stannis.

Edit: Actually, I believe he did not know Melisandre killed Renly. Nor Ser Cortnay Penrose.

[Smashing Praise]

He wouldn't have been a popular king and, like Ned, wouldn't have lasted long in the game of thrones.

The latter statement is untrue and is a reason Stannis might make a very good king. If Stannis ascended the throne, he'd be smart enough to strip people like Varys and Littlefinger of all titles and send them packing, if not more than that. There would be no more game if Stannis ruled, just him and trusted advisers. Robert and Aerys kept people like Pycelle, Varys, and Lannisters around and look where it got them.

[Insanity X]

The latter statement is untrue and is a reason Stannis might make a very good king.

That he'd slaughter anyone he faught against him in Robert's Rebelion, and be an unrelenting, unyielding twat can be seen as a good thing? Not on your nelly. The aristocrats would hate him because he will take their power. The peasents will hate him because he's Stannis and would think that outlawing brothels is a great idea. That's a combination just asking for rebellions, which would truely cause him to go down in the record books as a great king :rolleyes:

If Stannis ascended the throne, he'd be smart enough to strip people like Varys and Littlefinger of all titles and send them packing, if not more than that. There would be no more game if Stannis ruled, just him and trusted advisers.

And those who are loyal are not always people who are best for the job. Littlefinger got his job in the first place because he was so damn good at the job. Hell LF got his power by being so damn good with money he was able to build up his powerbase around him. As for Varys (or Littlefinger), do you REALLY think that it would stop their spy networks? All that would change is that the information would reach his enemies and not him. Even if you killed them, there will always be others who'll take their place.

And besides, ask Jamie Lannister what happens when loyalty and oaths contradict with the good of the kingdom.

Robert and Aerys kept people like Pycelle, Varys, and Lannisters around and look where it got them.

Considerably more successful reigns than Stannis would have had?

[The Sand Snake]

I think Stannis would be a horrible King...but a GREAT hand of the king. He's fairly smart, good at war, ect. But he doesnt have the winning personality to be king. But he'd be a very good hand because he good give the king council from the shadows. Hopefully he ends up in this role

[zmflavius]

I think Stannis would be a horrible King...but a GREAT hand of the king. He's fairly smart, good at war, ect. But he doesnt have the winning personality to be king. But he'd be a very good hand because he good give the king council from the shadows. Hopefully he ends up in this role

I admit that what you say is theoretically true, but I seem to recall another king's hand who was smart (in the book smart sense), honest, honorable, and loyal. Unfortunately, he was also as politically savvy as Stannis.

[Hirgon]

I admit that what you say is theoretically true, but I seem to recall another king's hand who was smart (in the book smart sense), honest, honorable, and loyal. Unfortunately, he was also as politically savvy as Stannis.

Davos as king, Stannis as Hand.

[Lord Godric]

He killed Renly, yes, but on the other hand, Renly was set on doing the same to him. Stannis did not do it out of spite, he did it to win Renly's army, and because Renly was, in fact, a traitor.

I do not think that makes what he did any better. Renly was willing to go to war with his brother, to have their armies fight and the better man would prevail. Instead Stannis had his shadowbaby assassinate Renly when no one was expecting it. There is nothing chivalrous about that, there is nothing honorable about that. And for a character that gets called honorable and good so often, it is a bit shocking that people try to rationalize Stannis' assassination of his brother.

He knew Stannis was the rightful king, but he wanted the crown for himself, for nothing but personal gain. Melisandre led him there, to win an army.

Actually, when Renly started going after the crown, he did NOT know Stannis was the rightful king. At that point he thought Joffrey was Robert's son and Stannis was as much as a usurper as he was, and as Robb Stark was. It wasn't until Stannis marched his troops to Storm's End that Renly learned the truth about Joffrey.

Edit: Actually, I believe he did not know Melisandre killed Renly. Nor Ser Cortnay Penrose.

So, what did he think happened to Renly? Why did he sent Mel and Davos into Storm's End to do?

[Millardkillmoore]

Count me in the camp that thinks Stannis would make the best king for Westeros. Harsh, but never cruel. Unyielding, but always just. A good commander, an honest man, and a fair one.

But, while those are all good qualities, they aren't what would make him the best king. What he did at the end of ASOS: Fighting off the Wildlings and preparing for the Others. He's the only king to take the threat of the Others seriously and actively prepare for it. In this decision, he has shown foresight and wisdom. Finally, consider the fact that he stopped the Wildling attack. When the other kings heard the NW's pleas for help, they stood by and did nothing. Stannis came to their aid. He is the only one of the kings vying for the throne that remembered what being a king is all about: serving your people, not simply ruling them. The fact that he alone among the other kings decided to serve his people is what makes him, imho, the best man for the job.

[Alexius]

I do not think that makes what he did any better. Renly was willing to go to war with his brother, to have their armies fight and the better man would prevail. Instead Stannis had his shadowbaby assassinate Renly when no one was expecting it. There is nothing chivalrous about that, there is nothing honorable about that. And for a character that gets called honorable and good so often, it is a bit shocking that people try to rationalize Stannis' assassination of his brother.

I don't get it.

Do you also find shocking when somebody tries to rationalize modern military doctrine of killing enemy's commanders with pinpoint strikes instead of waging a full-scale war as good and more morally right?

Yes, it isn't chivalrous. But Stannis never was about chivalry, his honor is grounded in duty. And from the point of view of his duty to the realm it's not so unhonorable to prevent bloodshed instigated by a traitor by killing said traitor only.

[The Sand Snake]

I admit that what you say is theoretically true, but I seem to recall another king's hand who was smart (in the book smart sense), honest, honorable, and loyal. Unfortunately, he was also as politically savvy as Stannis.

Your right about that. But when if Stannis was the Hand I don't think everything would be the same. By this point I'm guessing Cersei would be dead, and the new queen wouldnt hate whoever the king was(If the King isnt Dany). Also Littlefinger wouldnt be there to mess things up. I also don't see Stannis as quite as naive as Ned. Had Stannis thought that Cersei was screwing her brother and that the kids werent Roberts he would have told Robert right away I think.

[Gurkhal]

I agree that Stannis would make the best king, and Littlefinger and Varys depends on having the ear of the king to do anything. If someone decides to use violence against Littlefinger, he's fucked and he knows it. Stannis would take the damned heads off from every damn lickspittle there were in the court. He alone is making me considering adding the Baratheons to the list of my favorite Houses.

As to regards to being savvy he did manage to be part of figuring out that Joffrey was a bastard and product of incest, and didn't stay around to let the Lannisters kill him. That's got to count for something. As in regards to Renly I don't feel the least sorry for him. His death is no loss to me and it was never the question of the better man winning. It was just the question of the most numerous army winning, or Davos would've easily have beaten them all.