[TV Spoilers] I'm sick of Ros

[Balefont]

I suppose I never properly responded to the question posed by this thread. In doing that, I'll just say that I don't mind the character in the slightest but I do wonder about what her long term purpose is. It would be odd to feature her so much and then simply abandon her story. If there is some purpose to Ros, I don't think the attention paid to her is a big problem.

I just don't agree with her needing a big part now or later. Replacing Chataya and Alayaya sucks, imo. Even if they made Chats and 'Yaya not be from the Summer Isles so as to avoid any negative race connotations, it would be better than dragging this character from no where all through series 1 just for using her in series 2.

Also, while I do think the scene in the brothel was a tad gratuitous, I do understand the reasoning behind it. Clearly, they wanted us to know where she ended up. If her character later becomes important, then this is a necessary piece of information. Granted, the sex scene itself was not needed but Littlefinger did need somebody to explain his back-story. The only other character that could have fulfilled this role was Catelyn but how was she supposed to do that? In the book, if I remember correctly, this is done through her own internal thoughts. She doesn't actually tell anybody the story. Obviously, that wouldn't work in the television series. So Littlefinger had to do it, and it had to be to someone that couldn't actually act on the information.

I think having Littlefinger lay it all out was stupid. We get it. He's devious. He's always wanted Catelyn. This scene was a total spoon feed for the slow witted or just an excuse to throw in some more Ros. And regardles of whether or not he felt she could act on the information, LIttlefinger is shown as being so fucking careless by speaking all his motives and hinting at his intentions to some strangers, whore or not, and also with the high risk of anyone else overhearing. WTF? You don't get to where Littlefinger is and where he's going by exposing your plans!

[Balefont]

I think you made the right arguments but came to the wrong conclusion. Your very first line "Did he really though". Well, the answer is "Yes", because of the very reasons that you stated. The show took out the small scenes and hints of his deviousness, so we never really get to understand his motives. This scene was a little heavy handed, but simply explained his base motivation for what he did to Ned, and why he's been skeeving on Sansa, and will probably help to explain his future involvement with Sansa. There just hasn't been enough time to set up some of the characters with enough detail to make sense. Littlefinger, Varys, the Hound, Cercei, and others aren't being given the detail they were in the books and that's understandable on an adaption of this scale. If you didn't know Littlefinger from the books, would you have any idea why he betrayed Ned if this scene wasn't included?

Personally, I think we get that Littlefinger has had the hots for Catelyn based on his other hints from the show. And then they go and whack us all over the head with it. If they felt they needed to be clearer explaining why LF betrays Ned, a few more hints would have sufficed. And why do we need to know all this stuff before he betrays Ned? Why can't this be a bit more a of mystery. The one thing I like about HBO and Showtime shows is that they are more likely to treat the audience as having a fucking intelligence.

It seems as if most of the complaints revolve around the fact that Ros is getting screen time when "My" favorite character isn't. The post about Blackfish is a perfect example. How much sense would it really make to have to cast, pay, and introduce another actor that gets 15 seconds of screen time and doesn't have any major impact to the story? I'm fully behind saving costs by cutting characters/scenes that don't have any real impact if it means the budget can be used in better ways.

I can genuinely say this is not why I'm complaining. Thus far I've had total faith in D&D, et al with the changes that have been made. I trust that if I don't feel like they work now, they will work later. But these changes all involved characters that already fucking existed in the story! This whole make up a character and then show him and her as though he or she really is somewhat important and essential is total bullshit to me. As a book reader and long-time fan, this completely takes me out of the story. It's jarring.

Lastly, this scene wasn't about Ros... it was about Littlefinger. They could have easily had 2 random whores in the background, but why not use someone who the viewers already know and who seems to be well received (at least among non book readers)? It makes even more sense to include her if she's going to be replacing or consolidating other characters.

Having said all that, I'm not really a fan of her, myself.

Regardless, none of the scenes are about Ros. They're always about the "men talking when they are happy". And that's fine. Just change the whore for each time this sexposition method is used so we're not lead to believe one in particular is so fucking important.

This whole "setting her up to replace Chats and 'Yaya" is a very big stretch the producers are making. A couple new characters would have been fine AND LESS DISTRACTING in season 2.

[Ran]

You know, I think the conclusion that it's obvious that he wants Catelyn is clear. OH, Ned claims that LF still loves her... but there's no sign, up until this episode, that he's actually going to do something to get her. I think a lot of people won't realize that.

Of course, one can question whether it was wise to actually reveal that at that point in the episode. It does take a little bit from the turn he takes when he finally betrays Ned.

[Blackfish Blues]

(NOTE: Being a spoilsport: could someone add "E7 spoilers" to the thread title, since many have not seen E7 yet, thanks to HBO's brilliant marketing strategy?)

I'd love to be able to summon Lady Blackfish to this thread. Her unique sensitivity towards women's roles in fiction would be so interesting.

There are people who love Roz - thank goodness for diversity! I think she grates especially on book readers, but not necessarily only on them. My problem with Roz has two sides:

1) THE NARRATIVE. As an ASOIAF reader, her latest appearances have had the effect of jarring me violently out of the "suspension of disbelief", of the immersion in the story. "Her again?" We're watching a show from a saga populated with thousands of characters, and she is the only one completely invented.

I understood putting Ser Vardis in place of the Blackfish at the Bloody Gate. I hated it, but I understood it. They are moving the Tullys to season 2 (the Blackfish too, I hope, although GRRM doesn't answer queries about who's in and who's out) and fleshing out Vardis was a good way to make his duel with Bronn more impressive. Other existing characters have been variously manipulated - Rhakharo being the only named Dothraki warrior, for example.

But these are existing characters, and we are more or less prepared to their appearance, or lack of such. Roz is a new character. I don't know if others have the same feeling, but I find myself jarred out even from the comments on the show. I mean, I'd like to be wondering "How will they portray Jorah's attraction to Dany" (till now, wonderfully subtle) or "Will the Blackfish be in S2" (will someone answer me, dammit?), all questions pertinent to the saga; and instead I find myself more often wondering "What the hell are they going to do with this complete unknown who seems to have met each and every man in Westeros?" (every woman too) And "Why did she moan so loud, covering LF's words?"

2) PORTRAYAL OF WOMEN'S ROLES. I've had a discussion on Twitter about whether Roz is portrayed as a person. My sparring partner thought that yes, prostitutes did exist back then, so she is a realistic character. (Sue, if you're around feel free to correct me.) My problem is that, while "A" prostitute is perfectly at home with those times and places, "THIS" prostitute is a caricature, a non-person, a male fantasy. Compare with Doreah, whose role, too, was enlarged, and who is much more fleshed out. Roz is the ultimate object - she exists so that men can not only satisfy their carnal desires, but expand their role in their show. And she is shown to like it.

Imagine a scene where Robb and Theon have loud sex, finger up the ass and all, while Roz explains how she was raped as a child and forced into prostitution. Shocking? Then why aren't more people shocked by the E7 scene?

I was especially dismayed by the WiC thread where I expected a discussion about the awesomeness of E7 and instead found comments like "YAY lesbian action!" Way to go for women and LGBT, sure. And that ever-popular rejoinder, "You didn't like it? You're repressed. Sex exists, live with it."

I'm truly depressed about it, but I'm glad that it seems I'm not the only one with such doubts.

[Greywolf2375]

I think having Littlefinger lay it all out was stupid. We get it. He's devious. He's always wanted Catelyn. This scene was a total spoon feed for the slow witted or just an excuse to throw in some more Ros. And regardles of whether or not he felt she could act on the information, LIttlefinger is shown as being so fucking careless by speaking all his motives and hinting at his intentions to some strangers, whore or not, and also with the high risk of anyone else overhearing. WTF? You don't get to where Littlefinger is and where he's going by exposing your plans!

Couldn't agree more. LF goes expository like a little kid talking about the favorite toy he wants for Christmas. If he doesn't have a prior relationship with Roz of the nameless other, why is he saying anything? As Bale points out (and we see in the series) there are ears everywhere. The story of Brandon & Cat is not an unknown.

If Roz and the other are previously working for him, why the Tryout? The scene would make even less sense since it would then be done just for the TV audience.

Oh, and based on the literal hundreds of comments seen on the board about how "GRRM will not make a change to the story based on what fans have figured out/discussed/liked" it would be a little disappointing to see her have a part - unless it is purely an homage as pointed out above. I'd still not like it being her, but I do like that he does that in general.

[Vuron]

Couldn't agree more. LF goes expository like a little kid talking about the favorite toy he wants for Christmas. If he doesn't have a prior relationship with Roz of the nameless other, why is he saying anything? As Bale points out (and we see in the series) there are ears everywhere. The story of Brandon & Cat is not an unknown.

If Roz and the other are previously working for him, why the Tryout? The scene would make even less sense since it would then be done just for the TV audience.

Oh, and based on the literal hundreds of comments seen on the board about how "GRRM will not make a change to the story based on what fans have figured out/discussed/liked" it would be a little disappointing to see her have a part - unless it is purely an homage as pointed out above. I'd still not like it being her, but I do like that he does that in general.

Unfortunately, it seems to be the direction they've gone with Littlefinger's character. My most hated scene in the show, so far, was the scene where Littlefinger and Varys were having the pissing contest in the throne room. That scene insulted my senses because there is just no way either of them would do that. All the characters just seem to be way more "in your face" than the subtle nature of the books.

Speaking of the tryout... someone brought up in the recap thread about the instructions that Littlefinger was giving the whores. During a rewatch, I noticed that he was speaking about himself (get them to trust you, etc.). It didn't make the scene great, but I can deal with it.

I've resigned myself to the fact that there are going to be major changes from the books. We can either live with it and enjoy the show for what it is or complain for the next few years that it's not word for word from the books.

ETA.. I do agree with everyone that says this scene should have happened AFTER the betrayal, but this scenario also appears to be common in the show. We're seeing reasons given and then actions taken instead of explaining actions after the fact.

[Balefont]

As I've apparently reached my +1 limit for the day, I will say:

(NOTE: Being a spoilsport: could someone add "E7 spoilers" to the thread title, since many have not seen E7 yet, thanks to HBO's brilliant marketing strategy?)

I'd love to be able to summon Lady Blackfish to this thread. Her unique sensitivity towards women's roles in fiction would be so interesting.

There are people who love Roz - thank goodness for diversity! I think she grates especially on book readers, but not necessarily only on them. My problem with Roz has two sides:

1) THE NARRATIVE. As an ASOIAF reader, her latest appearances have had the effect of jarring me violently out of the "suspension of disbelief", of the immersion in the story. "Her again?" We're watching a show from a saga populated with thousands of characters, and she is the only one completely invented.

I understood putting Ser Vardis in place of the Blackfish at the Bloody Gate. I hated it, but I understood it. They are moving the Tullys to season 2 (the Blackfish too, I hope, although GRRM doesn't answer queries about who's in and who's out) and fleshing out Vardis was a good way to make his duel with Bronn more impressive. Other existing characters have been variously manipulated - Rhakharo being the only named Dothraki warrior, for example.

But these are existing characters, and we are more or less prepared to their appearance, or lack of such. Roz is a new character. I don't know if others have the same feeling, but I find myself jarred out even from the comments on the show. I mean, I'd like to be wondering "How will they portray Jorah's attraction to Dany (till now, wonderfully subtle) or "Will the Blackfish be in S2" (will someone answer me, dammit?), all questions pertinent to the saga, and instead I find myself more often wondering "What the hell are they going to do with this complete unknown who seems to have met each and every man in Westeros?" (every woman too) And "Why did she moan so loud, covering LF's words?"

2) PORTRAYAL OF WOMEN'S ROLES. I've had a discussion on Twitter about whether Roz is portrayed as a person. My sparring partner thought that yes, prostitutes did exist back then, so she is a realistic character. (Sue, if you're around feel free to correct me.) My problem is that, while "A" prostitute is perfectly at home with those times and places, "THIS" prostitute is a caricature, a non-person, a male fantasy. Compare with Doreah, whose role, too, was enlarged, and who is much more fleshed out. Roz is the ultimate object - she exists so that men can not only satisfy their carnal desires, but expand their role in their show. And she is shown to like it.

Imagine a scene where Robb and Theon have loud sex, finger up the ass and all, while Roz explains how she was raped as a child and forced into prostitution. Shocking? Then why aren't more people shocked by the E7 scene?

I was especially dismayed by the WiC thread where I expected a discussion about the awesomeness of E7 and instead found comments like "YAY lesbian action!" Way to go for women and LGBT, sure. And that ever-popular rejoinder, "You didn't like it? You're repressed. Sex exists, live with it."

I'm truly depressed about it, but I'm glad that it seems I'm not the only one with such doubts.

&

Couldn't agree more. LF goes expository like a little kid talking about the favorite toy he wants for Christmas. If he doesn't have a prior relationship with Roz of the nameless other, why is he saying anything? As Bale points out (and we see in the series) there are ears everywhere. The story of Brandon & Cat is not an unknown.

If Roz and the other are previously working for him, why the Tryout? The scene would make even less sense since it would then be done just for the TV audience.

Oh, and based on the literal hundreds of comments seen on the board about how "GRRM will not make a change to the story based on what fans have figured out/discussed/liked" it would be a little disappointing to see her have a part - unless it is purely an homage as pointed out above. I'd still not like it being her, but I do like that he does that in general.

+++++++1,000,000,000

[Balefont]

Seriously, thank you again to Blackfish Blues for so eloquently stating when my hot-headed nature could not.

[Blackfish Blues]

Speaking of the tryout... someone brought up in the recap thread about the instructions that Littlefinger was giving the whores. During a rewatch, I noticed that he was speaking about himself (get them to trust you, etc.). It didn't make the scene great, but I can deal with it.

Yes, and that was brilliant. I've noticed that the sex scenes are usually heralded by misleading hype, but then turn out to be meaningful, such as Doreah/Viserys or Renly/Loras (minus the slurping). This time I hoped it was a similar case. But as the scene went on, and on, and ON, I could not help thinking GRATUITOUS.

Seriously, thank you again to Blackfish Blues for so eloquently stating when my hot-headed nature could not.

THX! Even though I hope it won't be true, I LOVE your sig.

[Trinket]

I think it's obvious that she is

Azor Ahai.

It is known.

Does that mean she's Stannis in drag? ;)

[Blue Steel]

She's giving a really a good performance and so she's fine by me.

It's not the book after all and her character does kind of make sense since it's plausible that she existed. As for her "gumping" her way around Westeros in the way Titus Pullo did in Rome, it's good for a TV show.

[Morrigan]

How this insipid wench gets more screentime than the Hound and Robb Stark combined is beyond me.

All her screen time could have also gone to adding the Tower of Joy flashback, the lines where Cersei asks Ned about his honour in fathering a bastard, Robert's exchange with Ned about not having been as bad as Aerys, and plenty more good stuff they cut just to show some boobies.

I liked E07 a lot in spite of the beginning with the Littlefinger sexposition, but really, shame on you, HBO.

Edit: whoever called Ros "the Wesley" is spot-on. :lol:

[reiver]

I'd be genuinely suprised if people still want to get their rocks off to random girls in TV shows when there's an entire internet of hot naked girls that aren't intercut with shots of Dwarves' come faces or Goatee sporting men (unless that's what you want ). True Blood, well i wanted to see Anna Paquin's tits and Lizzy Caplan's but i'd hardly watch a show for that and, after i realised how vacuous TB was, i didn't. I'll just wait until the clips hit the net and download them.

Esme Bianco isn't exactly a draw (hot as she undoubtedly is) in the way seeing Lena's breasts would be. She's as interesting as any of the girls they hired from the local stripclub ie. not at all. I'm just not interested in titillation when I'm wanting story.

If people watch HBO shows for the tits why did deadwood make them so unappealing? Same with the wire. Really you can count the number of hot naked girls in those shows on one hand. Nudity tended to come from proper actors and wasn't exactly flattering.

I think you made the right arguments but came to the wrong conclusion.

Fair point. I still don't like the scene though. Even conceeding that they mangled building LF's character and needed to relay some of his motivation i think they went overboard and i despise its placing in relation to what follows. One of the things i love about the books is the steady drip of information that slowly allows you to build up the fuller picture. I understand the difficulty in matching that in a TV show as its harder to hide things and also layering can make the writers seem capricious when they reveal things later. That said i think they've gone too far the other way.

[sedeyus]

The thing that I find sad is that the writers and GRRM always talking about how much they liked her and that's why they expanded her scenes. But does anyone think she'll get good work from this role? Her scenes essentially make her into a pair of tits. That's not a knock of her ability as an actress but there's only so much you can do with a role. If D&D really liked her that much, I suggest they give her a scene where she's actuallly allowed to act, instead of cavort nakedly while delivering a zesty one-liner.

[Tywin's bastard]

1) THE NARRATIVE. As an ASOIAF reader, her latest appearances have had the effect of jarring me violently out of the "suspension of disbelief", of the immersion in the story. "Her again?" We're watching a show from a saga populated with thousands of characters, and she is the only one completely invented.

What you're describing doesn't really have anything to do with suspension of disbelief though, it just has to do with letting your baggage get in the way of your own immersion, something I'd wager most readers have struggled with to varying degrees. There's a lot of difference between thinking that a new character is done well or poorly (a subjective view that you can't fully control), and thinking that creating new things is inherently bad (in my opinion the wrong kind of attitude for your own good). In my opinion the viewer has 50% of the responsibility for a good viewing experience.

Personally I don't mind the character much as I don't really have any strong feelings in either way for it. No scene she's has really anything to do with her so she's not really taking up plot property and I'm usually neither bothered nor excited by sex scenes. It's a natural thing.

2) PORTRAYAL OF WOMEN'S ROLES. I've had a discussion on Twitter about whether Roz is portrayed as a person. My sparring partner thought that yes, prostitutes did exist back then, so she is a realistic character. (Sue, if you're around feel free to correct me.) My problem is that, while "A" prostitute is perfectly at home with those times and places, "THIS" prostitute is a caricature, a non-person, a male fantasy. Compare with Doreah, whose role, too, was enlarged, and who is much more fleshed out. Roz is the ultimate object - she exists so that men can not only satisfy their carnal desires, but expand their role in their show. And she is shown to like it.

I get the contrary impression. Rather than just being an object, which I suspect most whores would be around nobles, she shows spirit and is unusually bold and sharp-tongued (which you could see as a tiny bit of the Arya syndrome). To me Doreah is more of an object as she's more focused on her place and what she's supposed to do (pleasing others). I don't think it has much to do with a free woman compared to a slave either, seeing how the medieval low commoners were free mainly in theory.

[Vvion]

I hope the Roslin is in every single episode from now on. Not necessarily because she is astonishingly good looking but for all the amusing rage posts on this board. It is really hilarious to read all the enraged yet helpless comments here and all the clamour of how the integration of a single character that was not in the books is a personal insult to every true fan. In fact it is so amusing that I have created an account for these boards.

There might be some arguments against the few scenes with Roz, but most of the so called arguments here make no sense.

1) Her scenes take time away from more important characters.

- Not true. The only scene she were in that was only about her was the good-by-scene on the cart. Every other scene was needed for exposition. You might argue that these scenes weren't needed at all, but in this case you have to blame it on the redundant script and not on Roslin's involvement. If there were no Roslin in the series at all, the authors would still have to put similar scenes in to confer the same bits of info (or would have had the urge to do so, even if you think it would be unnecessary).

2) She is not as important as other characters and henceforth shouldn't have more screentime.

- This argument ain't gonna work either. Importance doesn't relate mathematically to screentime. Otherwise every TV series would be predictable and boring. And again: the scene weren't about Roslin but about exposition. What harm does it do, that the respective main character isn't talking to "Random NPC xy" instead of Roslin? You can legitimately criticize that the Hound is not getting enough attention, but what does this have to do with Roslin? You can hardly assume that Roslin is the cause for the lack of screen time of your favourite character. Don’t pretend that time restrictions are he only reason for altering the prominence of a book character in a TV series and hence every shortage of character X or Y could have been avoided by simple cutting one or two minutes of other scenes.

3) It breaks my suspension of disbelief!

- Why does it do this? Because you know that these scenes aren't in the books or because they don't fit in the fictional world of Westeros? I can't believe that it is the latter. These scenes could have been in the books without ruining the whole experience or being out of place (and if there were fitting POVs). Nobody would complain about the book if GRRM had put the Roslin scenes in AGoT. They might create some minor inconsistencies but not substantially more than in the rest of the books. If the only reason why Roslin is ruining your experience is that you know that she is not in the books, than that is your problem and not bad screenwriting.

4) The character of Roslin does nothing for the story and is henceforth unnecessary.

The series has to be quite heavy on exposition scenes. Blame it on GRRM for giving his books so much depth. Every scene that involves nothing more than a more or less disguise monologue that dumps information on the viewers and does nothing for character or plot progress is a blow to the pace of the episode. Yet you need a certain amount of these scenes and it is the true art of screenwriting to disguise them as much as possible or arrange the order of scenes so that they don’t feel like a patchwork of unrelated scenes. With the introduction of Roslin the authors took a batch of these exposition scenes and weaved a simple mini plot around them. With this small trick they gave these scenes a second function with a single stroke. They are not only for giving out information anymore but also to give the viewer the impression that the story is going forward. Nothing is taken away from all the other plot threads. Some formerly unconnected scenes were put together to give them meaning beyond handing out information. That lessened the burden for the authors to pace the episodes and made room for other “background dump” scenes.

The viewer is not “Oh! Another scene, the third in a row, that feeds me necessary background.” but instead: “Oh, this beautiful woman again, what happens to her now? Oh, and I get to know some new bits about Theon as well.”

If you cut every scene with Roslin, would it make the series better? I think not. You and especially the viewers that haven't read the books would miss on all the information about Theon and Littlefinger.

Could you film these scenes without Roslin? Sure! But would that make the series better?

All that remains of your arguments is: It was not in the books!

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

ETA: This was to Tywin's Bastard. I should have been more careful, as I know these threads move quickly!

On your last point - yes, she shows spirit. How many women who've presumably grown up in a life of prostitution would? How many would speak back to -- and manhandle -- a major client? (I'll give this one sort of a pass because it seems clear that Theon's gone to her for a long time; that wasn't their first interaction.) I agree that the character really does tend towards the 'happy hooker' end of things. (Not that all sex workers are unhappy, but come on. Ros isn't Chataya or Alayaya, doing this for religious purposes. She might enjoy the sex, at least sometimes, but she's doing it for money. Unless they *have* turned her into one of Varys's sources of information, which I suppose is possible but seems unlikely.)

In addition, as you say, no scene she's in really has anything to do with her, so why is she in all of them?

I actually don't have as much of a problem with the character as many, pudenda shots included, and I certainly have nothing against the actress. But I do feel as though they're setting her up to be a major secondary character, and I haven't heard a satisfying explanation as to why.

PS Why does everyone keep calling the character Roslin? It's just Ros. I can understand Roz from the phonetics, but not artificially expanding the name.

[Vvion]

In addition, as you say, no scene she's in really has anything to do with her, so why is she in all of them?

To give some random exposition scenes another meaning besides "Attention please! You are now fed important information!"

But I do feel as though they're setting her up to be a major secondary character, and I haven't heard a satisfying explanation as to why.

Yes, she is so major that she gets like 4-5 scenes in 10 episodes that were all except one totally about the other characters in that particular scene?

PS Why does everyone keep calling the character Roslin? It's just Ros. I can understand Roz from the phonetics, but not artificially expanding the name.

I can only speak for myself, but I have read the name here and assumed that Roslin is listed in some casting list or something similar.

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

To give some random exposition scenes another meaning besides "Attention please! You are now fed important information!"

What's the other meaning?

Yes, she is so major that she gets like 4-5 scenes in 10 episodes that were all except one totally about the other characters in that particular scene?

Which, as has been pointed out, is as much or more than, say, Robb. It's also not an issue of "the main character of the scene" - if, say, Varys were in every scene in KL, I think people would be questioning that, too. Even more so if it were Jory, or one of the barely-named "best swords". Or, alternately, if the screenwriters had made Irri a sassy handmaid and made sure to give her an important role in the exposition of several major characters.

I can only speak for myself, but I have read the name here and assumed that Roslin is listed in some casting list or something similar.

It isn't, or not in any of the cast lists I've seen. If you search and find one, though, more power to you.

[Asharak]

"Yes, she is so major that she gets like 4-5 scenes in 10 episodes that were all except one totally about the other characters in that particular scene? "

Cersei had one dialogue scene per episode in ep. 3,4,5 and 6, Robert had about the same amount, so Roz having 4-5 scenes of screen time is a pretty big amount. She might not be "the main character" in those scenes, but she has certainly had a lot of dialogue in them.