Why does everyone call her Cersei Lannister and not Baraetheon?

[zmflavius]

I have been also kinda surprised how Joffrey is reffered as "Joffrey of the houses Baratheon and Lannister". I get the fact that Lannisters are all but standing behind him, but shouldn´t be any aristocrat of just one house only?

The Lannisters are never one to miss elevating themselves.

[Raven Queen]

Agreed that there are clearly no hard and fast rules in the culture of Westeros about names. Contrary to one of the main points in the OP, Catelyn and Lysa are definitely referred to as Catelyn Tully and Lysa Tully by themselves and others. There's also an example of Lysa having clothing in the Tully colors which would indicate that even after marriage and many years, women (at least of the greater houses) would still wear the colors of their birth house and identify themselves thus.

Cersei Lannister being known, even to commoners, as Cercei Lannisters makes sense to me, as the Lannister/Baratheon marriage was so politically motivated that it only serves to keep the peace of Westeros to make sure everyone right down to the common class is aware that, yes, their queen is a Lannister.

The only point where I feel that Cersei flouts tradition, somewhat shockingly in my opinion, is when she insists that Tommen (and I believe Joffery as well) uses the crimson Lannister cloak in his wedding to Margaery. She says it was the cloak her father put around her mother Joanna's shoulders- so it is a Lannister cloak with the Lannister colors- when the husband is supposed to put HIS house colors over the shoulders of his bride, which in Joff & Tommen's case WOULD be the Baratheon house. Though the wives' name and colors may remain of their birth house rather than their husband's, it's definitely clear in the books that children take their fathers' colors and heraldry.

The fact that Cersei insists that her children be identified as Lannisters rather than Baratheons seems the height of arrogance and stupidity, given that she wants to squash rumors of incest and her children's parentage. So the whole business of the cloak, and the kids having split arms on their heraldry between Lannister and Baratheon, just seems stupid and a surefire way to give credit to those rumors.

[Myrish swan]

Cersei Rodham Lannister-Baratheon.

Everyone knows it's a sham for political reasons only.

Oh, sweet Jesus. Yet another comparison of Cersei with Hilary Clinton. I already got to read a series of delightful little comments on GRRM's blog (posted by readers during the 2008 election time) about how Hilary was the "non hot" version of Cersei. (WTF?! Do people actually blame Hilary for not being sexually attractive at this point? She's 63 years old, for crying out loud.) Needless to say, I got to read some delightful speculation on whether Cersei attempted to burn some areas of the Whitehouse; who Chelsea's true father was; etc.

I think its funny that Cersei is presented in such a way that pretty much any ostentatiously ambitious, assertive (maybe aggressive), and proud female can be easily insulted and degraded by calling her a "Cersei." Oh, I know, it’s all a joke and I'm taking it too seriously, blah blah blah. However, its funny how inseparable Cersei's evilness is from the fact that she's an ambitious female who tries to have the power in her marriage and is power hungry in general. Though Hilary has plenty of flaws, I don't see them as all that different from those of many male politicians. However, by comparing her to Cersei, its pretty much implied that she uses sex to get ahead, is a raving sociopath, totally incompetent, stupid, etc.

Regarding Cersei Lanister, I'm not sure. But I honestly don't see how it’s THAT huge of an insult to house Baratheon. However, like her desire for power in and of itself, and her refusal to submit to her husband, Cersei's pride in her own house symbol, and refusal to abandon it, is presented as ridiculous, insulting, and somehow "unnatural."

Also funny: not a single one of the "ambitious" "powerful" women in these books whom people constantly bring forth when I argue that there is a shade of sexism in how Cersei is portrayed is married.

[Alexia]

However, like her desire for power in and of itself, and her refusal to submit to her husband, Cersei's pride in her own house symbol, and refusal to abandon it, is presented as ridiculous, insulting, and somehow "unnatural."

Heh, I always thought a lot of that was filtered through Ned's viewpoint, who hates Lannisters in general and Cersei in particular. One specific thing I recall is when Jon tried to slam Joffrey for using quartered arms and Arya told him that the woman is important too. Also, during the first three books, I loved Cersei's unbridled ambition. I loved her for the quartered arms, surrounding Robert with Lannisters, using all her wiles to raise her family's profile, using the name "Lannister", and all that came with it. Likewise, I didn't take Ned's opinions of her too seriously and I occasionally found them offputting. Who the heck would want to submit to Robert?

Also funny: not a single one of the "ambitious" "powerful" women in these books whom people constantly bring forth when I argue that there is a shade of sexism in how Cersei is portrayed is married.

I raise you Margaery Tyrell. :)

[Myrish swan]

The only point where I feel that Cersei flouts tradition, somewhat shockingly in my opinion, is when she insists that Tommen (and I believe Joffery as well) uses the crimson Lannister cloak in his wedding to Margaery.

......

when the husband is supposed to put HIS house colors over the shoulders of his bride, which in Joff & Tommen's case WOULD be the Baratheon house. Though the wives' name and colors may remain of their birth house rather than their husband's, it's definitely clear in the books that children take their fathers' colors and heraldry.

The fact that Cersei insists that her children be identified as Lannisters rather than Baratheons seems the height of arrogance and stupidity

Once again, Cersei is singular and sort of "feminist." Once again, she is demonized for it.

Interesting:

Catelyn identifies herself as a Stark. While Dany is married to Drogo, submits to him. (Actually, takes initiative in one area-- the bedroom. "Liberates" herself by learning to please her husband sexually. Woohoo.)

Significantly, all of the other "strong" women whom people throw out to prove that accusing these books of some sexism is TOTALLY UNFAIR are unmarried. Thus, they don't have a husband they are "emasculating" or "disrespecting" in the way that Cersei is (it is implied) emasculating and disrespecting Robert. Asha is unmarried, and does not stand up to/ go against her father's wishes in what she does-- as her father says, he's a- okay with her "being married to an ax. People talk about Asha's sexual liberation, how she's proof that GRRM does not look unkindly on ambitious women or women who subvert gender roles-- in order to take power. I say, conveniently, Asha is unmarried, and all the men she's standing up against/ attempting to take power from are idiots. Not coincidentally, she would almost surely step down if there were a halfway decent candidate. And significantly, though portrayed as intelligent, competent, and a good leader, Asha never once thinks "I am being treated unfairly due to my sex. Not once, in all of her POV chapter. Even when the reader points out that they won't follow her specifically on account of he sex, she does not resent this, or think the gender roles of Westeros are unfair.

No other "good" female character ever thinks "I'm being treated unfairly due to my sex," or stands up to their husband. (Or desires power for its own sake.) Arya- unmarried, Brienne -unmarried. So, the only woman who ostentatiously stands up to her husband and challenges the gender roles of Westeros specifically is demonized. Furthermore, she is made to looks stupid/ like a whiner, for resenting the very real inequalities in her society.

The only other woman who objected to these gender roles was Arya, when she says that girls are just as important to boys in AGoT. (Interestingly, the subject is Joff's choice to display both the Lanister Lion and the Baratheon stag on his shield. Jon says it is yet more proof of the Queen's shocking arrogance and general ridiculousness that she would have the signal of her own house along with that of the royal house. (Most people here seem to agree, and add only that Cersei is also a moron, for good measure.) Arya rather feebly disagrees; however, we soon learn her main issue is not women being represented equally to men, but her desire to wield a sword. Not nearly so threatening, ahem, I mean, arrogant, as insisting that a woman's original house should be represented equally to the man she marries.) At any rate, after Arya's initial few objections to girls having it different from boys (I think there are like, literally, 2-3 occasions), she never brings this up again. Arya's primary issue throughout the next several books is a search for identity, love, and belonging. The only person who resents the Westeros gender roles is the evil, unfailingly demonized, Cersei.

And though I know everyone is going to jump to mention Brienne, she fits in none of these categories. She "challenges the gender roles of Westeros" by fighting like a man/ carrying Weapons, etc. GRRM appears to love it when women fight like men/ are interested in traditionally male activities (or, at least, he portrays such women very sympathetically. In fact, he seems to have less sympathy for conventionally feminine characters, such as Sansa and Cat.)No, what he portreays negatively(or at least what he portrays as horrible and "unnatural") is when women a. lust for power for its own sake (he does not demonize this quality in men NEARLY so much), b. Refuse to submit to their husband in important matters, when their husband is even a mildly good guy, and c. overtly resents the patriarchal customs of Westeros. Cersei does this, and she is made to look stupid, ridiculous, self-deluded, a whiner, etc. In the world GRRM portrays, women who do not fit into the Westeros mold of "conventional woman" do not complain a bit about unfair treatment. They simply somehow buck all tradition without complaint, and become female warrior, in a way that is as inexplicable as it is unrealistic. Brienne never hates the customs of her culture, and rarely blames the men around her for overt sexism. Instead, she fights like a man and blames the fact that she does not fit in on herself, seeing herself as "a freak." The only time she gets angry/ upset with the men around her is when a bunch of soldiers are planning to rape her to show her up. And even then she doesn't think "This is all because i'm a girl, and they are discounting and abusing me on account of my gender." No, instead she thinks, "I can't believe they did this! They are knights. They should be honorable, etc."

[Myrish swan]

Heh, I always thought a lot of that was filtered through Ned's viewpoint, who hates Lannisters in general and Cersei in particular

Yeah, but Tyrion also thinks Cersei is "unnatural" for the way she treats her husband, and he doesn't have any sort of problem with the Lanisters. In fact, I recall Tyrion thinking that, since she appears to want power and independence so much, Cersei must truly want to have a penis. This insult, so commonly thrown at ambitious women, was, I assumed, the product of a guy raised in the sexist environment of Westeros. However, in AFFC, we all learn that Cersei really does want a penis.

Likewise, I didn't take Ned's opinions of her too seriously and I occasionally found them offputting. Who the heck would want to submit to Robert?

Cersei is presented as a harpy for not doing so. Or, at least, not pretending to do so, and giving Robert "the benefit of the doubt" or whatever. Her refusal to forgive Robert his slip up on the wedding night is supposed to demonstrate Cersei's irrational, vengeful, and generally "unnatural" character, one that is proud, loveless, and will go to any heights for revenge. Though hard to respect, it is implied (and has been explicitly stated by dozens of posters on this forum) that Cersei shoudl have "made the best" of her marriage to Robert; been kind to him and submit to him in the important things, as Cat did with Ned. Even GRRM said in an interview that Robert is "basically a good guy, in a lot of ways." I guess the hitting and marital rape do not disqualify him from being "basically good." :rolleyes:

I raise you Margaery Tyrell. :)

Margery Tyrell proves my point. She is

a. not ambitious for herself. Everything she's done her family has put her up to.

b. Never appears to resent or challenge the patriarchal customs of Westeros. In fact, in AFFC, Margary, who flatters and cajoles her new husband, never failing to play the traditional women's role, is portrayed as far, far smarter than CerseI, who tries to "play the man's role herself. Margary looks out for herself and her family, flatters and does favors for her husband in an effort to hold sway over him, however, she does basically care about Tomen, and wants to do what is best for him. It is portrayed that this is exactly what Cersei should have done with Robert, if she had been smart enough to play her cards right. The fact that she didn't is portrayed as yet more proof that Cersei is stupid, stupid, stupid. Being a woman, her strong desire for power for itself makes her unworthy of wield it. (This is never really the case for the men, who are portrayed as brilliant and competent leaders, even when they are as ambitious as Cersei and clearly want power.)

Clearly, Margary, if she married Robert as Renly and Loras hoped, would be "a good wife" to Robert. She would play the conventionally feminine, submissive role, and probably love Robert in a way. Or, at least, she would be kind to him, forgiving him his "little"failings (drunkeness, gluttony, obesity, and terminal cheating). She would stay within her conventional female role, but manage to help her family advance by charming Robert the way Tommen did.

And, it is implied, the way Cersei was too stupid to do. Cersei's desire to wield power in her own name, and be beholden to no man, her pride, her insistence on using her own signet, and her burning resentment that she is treated differently due to her sex are presented as proof of Cersei's vengefullness, stupidity, nasty, resentful nature, and lack of subtlety and true intelligence.

[Alexia]

Clearly, Margary, if she married Robert as Renly and Loras hoped, would be "a good wife" to Robert. She would play the conventionally feminine, submissive role, and probably love Robert in a way. Or, at least, she would be kind to him, forgiving him his "little"failings (drunkeness, gluttony, obesity, and terminal cheating). She would stay within her conventional female role, but manage to help her family advance by charming Robert the way Tommen did.

ORLY? FFS, she poisoned Joffrey!

With all due respect Myrish Swan, you often do have some interesting points. But I disagree with your conclusions of the intent behind the portrayal of Cersei and Robert's marriage. They are pretty well identical throughout the marriage and I don't think there's any way to support a claim that Cersei's refusal to forgive Robert is supposed to demonstrate anything negative about her. Ned Stark feels sorry for her about it!

I really don't know what you're looking for, a suffrage movement? As I interpret it, Westeros is supposed to be about a feudal society and about how women would deal with the limitations of one. There are numerous examples of women chafing at the restrictions (which you always hasten to discount) such as Asha and Brienne, whose entire storylines are about getting access to roles reserved for men.

There are plenty of flaws in the storyline and within the characterization of women within the story. Cersei in AFFC is an excellent example of such. Nonetheless, you come to a lot of conclusions with very little to support them. Your summation of Margaery Tyrell is a good example of this. Margaery is a fairly strong female character who poisoned a husband she didn't want that her father had arranged for her to marry, spent a lot of time cultivating the populace of the capital city, fought her mother-in-law for control of the King, etc. Yet you hurry to discount her (or any positive portrayal of women in the narrative) because, from my backseat view, it doesn't fit in the larger context of personally attacking GRRM as a sexist pig. And that is a conversation that I have no interest in participating in.

[Galen M]

Cersei is not despised because she is stepping out of her gender role, she is hated for being an evil, scheming, bitch. She has innocent people killed, tortured, arrested just because they stand in her way, including her own brother. She makes up the whole story about Margaery and would have her killed just because she is dominating too much of her son's time/life. All of this has nothing to do with being a woman, it has to do with being evil.

[Gold Storm]

Agreed that there are clearly no hard and fast rules in the culture of Westeros about names. Contrary to one of the main points in the OP, Catelyn and Lysa are definitely referred to as Catelyn Tully and Lysa Tully by themselves and others. There's also an example of Lysa having clothing in the Tully colors which would indicate that even after marriage and many years, women (at least of the greater houses) would still wear the colors of their birth house and identify themselves thus.

Cersei Lannister being known, even to commoners, as Cercei Lannisters makes sense to me, as the Lannister/Baratheon marriage was so politically motivated that it only serves to keep the peace of Westeros to make sure everyone right down to the common class is aware that, yes, their queen is a Lannister.

The only point where I feel that Cersei flouts tradition, somewhat shockingly in my opinion, is when she insists that Tommen (and I believe Joffery as well) uses the crimson Lannister cloak in his wedding to Margaery. She says it was the cloak her father put around her mother Joanna's shoulders- so it is a Lannister cloak with the Lannister colors- when the husband is supposed to put HIS house colors over the shoulders of his bride, which in Joff & Tommen's case WOULD be the Baratheon house. Though the wives' name and colors may remain of their birth house rather than their husband's, it's definitely clear in the books that children take their fathers' colors and heraldry.

The fact that Cersei insists that her children be identified as Lannisters rather than Baratheons seems the height of arrogance and stupidity, given that she wants to squash rumors of incest and her children's parentage. So the whole business of the cloak, and the kids having split arms on their heraldry between Lannister and Baratheon, just seems stupid and a surefire way to give credit to those rumors.

I think this is one of mistakes, when the realm goes into Civil War, no Baratheon banners go with Joffrey. The North and the Riverlands rallied too Robb because of Ned and Cat. By the time Joffrey and then Tommen got married, they did not even pretend that the Baratheons were part of the royal family. Also the very visible split between the Lannisters and Baratheons fed the rumors about the relationship between Cersei and Jammie.

[Asha—Not Yara!]

This thread has made me wonder about the Tyrion marriage to Sansa. Originally the plan was for Tyrion to get Sansa pregnant and then later on reclaim the North in the name of Eddard Stark's grandson. Because Stark is such a widely known name in the North, and have ruled the North for thousands of years, it would make sense of Tyrion adopted the Stark name instead of Lannister. However, Tyrion has that Lannister pride, so I can't see him doing that myself. I could see however Sansa being called Sansa Stark only, and her son using the Stark name since it would have been politically beneficial that way.

[Xenophon]

This thread has made me wonder about the Tyrion marriage to Sansa. Originally the plan was for Tyrion to get Sansa pregnant and then later on reclaim the North in the name of Eddard Stark's grandson. Because Stark is such a widely known name in the North, and have ruled the North for thousands of years, it would make sense of Tyrion adopted the Stark name instead of Lannister. However, Tyrion has that Lannister pride, so I can't see him doing that myself. I could see however Sansa being called Sansa Stark only, and her son using the Stark name since it would have been politically beneficial that way.

I imagine Tyrion would have tried Cersei's plan of quartering his son's arms. So you'd have, say, Brandon of the House Stark-Lannister.

[Nukelavee]

Wow, Cersie a feminist? Only in the worst sense of the word, in that she is nearly as sexist as the men.

You discount Dany, Swan, for her "bedroom liberation" while Cersie relies on sex for half of her plans. She'd rather be male, which doesn't strike me as particularly feminist, and she shows an alarming amount of contempt for most of her female peers.

Regardless, her problem ISN"T that she goes against some patriarchal power structure, it's that she makes incredibly stupid mistakes and she refuses to be any kind of "team" player.

Plus, I'd say Lady Mormont, her daughter, Brienne, and Asha all are better "feminist" characters (if you really have to put a patriarchal/matriarchal conflic debate in here), in that they simply ignore where traditional values stand against thier choosen action/paths.

No, bucking the values of Westeros isn't Cersie's downfall, being filled to bursting with hubris is. Actually, it might be fun to compare her fall with Theon's.

[jlk7e]

I assume Sansa and Tyrion's kid would have taken the name "Stark."

Remember that we have a situation where 1) female succession seems to be allowed in every house in Westeros; and 2) the same houses have been ruling for thousands of years - since the Andal conquest or even before. The only way for that to possibly work is that when a female succession happens, either the husband takes his wife's name or their son takes his mother's name. It is basically completely impossible to have centuries of succession where it is possible for females to inherit but they never actually do. You pretty much never get an unbroken male line for more than three or four centuries.

[The Undead Martyr]

How many "evil" women are in the story? Cersei, Lysa and Uncat are the only ones that come close so far, and they're all much more sympathetic than the "evil" men. Cersei is the closest we come to a villainous woman, and she's utterly tame in comparison to the men.

[Myrish swan]

Yet you hurry to discount her (or any positive portrayal of women in the narrative) because, from my backseat view, it doesn't fit in the larger context of personally attacking GRRM as a sexist pig. And that is a conversation that I have no interest in participating in.

First, I'm sorry you feel I am personally attacking GRRM as a sexist pig. Actually, I never meant to say anything like "sexist pig," ... honestly, I didn't even think it. However, you are right that my comments were too personal. I said that GRRM loathed a certain type of woman, and that was unfair. However, I think it's fair to say (not as a fact, but as an opinion) that GRRM frequently portrays a certain kind of woman negatively. (I'll get to why in a moment. Contrary to your posts, I do have plenty of evidence.) I am speaking generally here, but my post was actually pretty specific. And, contrary to your claims, I actually do have specific examples from the text that made me feel this way. It's honestly not my desire to find double standards and sexist tendencies in these books. (And for the record, I think pointing out double standards and sexist attitudes within a text is clearly different from saying someone acts in a sexist/ misogynistic manner.) I will address a few of your specific points, and try to clarify the main point of my argument below.

ORLY? FFS, she poisoned Joffrey!

Yes, but I said a woman going against even moderately decent men. Joffrey is a straight up scumbag. Its not like with Cersei, when a woman is challenging men that the author gives every appearance of relating to.

I really don't know what you're looking for, a suffrage movement? As I interpret it, Westeros is supposed to be about a feudal society and about how women would deal with the limitations of one.

Yes, and this is fine. I have taken pains to separate the sexism of Westeros in general with certain sexist tendencies of the text itself. That is, the way certain characters are written, and certain double standards that crop up throughout the series.

As I interpret it, Westeros is supposed to be about a feudal society and about how women would deal with the limitations of one. There are numerous examples of women chafing at the restrictions (which you always hasten to discount) such as Asha and Brienne, whose entire storylines are about getting access to roles reserved for men.

I am not trying to “discount” characters such as Asha, Brienne, or Margary. However, I do have reasons for contending that the presentation of these characters actually supports the point I was making. And though the tone of my second post here may have been a bit shrill, I think its unfair of you to more or less disregard the argument I was actually making, and claim that everything I was saying was part of a desire to portray the author of these books as a sexist pig.

My specific point was that Cersei was the only married woman to specifically stand up to her husband, challenge the patriarchy in various ways, and struggle to take various “male” privileges herself. IMO, though it is numerous other issues that make her a villain, her overt efforts to take power/ assume male privileges, are portrayed very negatively; either as signs of arrogance, stupidity on her part, or merely evidence that she was “unnatural,” an emasculating bitch. Furthermore, though there are other women to “challenge the patriarchy” take on traditionally male roles, etc., it seemed that none of these women were married, or that their husbands were dead, like dany.

Finally, I couldn’t help but notice that all of the “good” unconventionally feminine/ powerful women never, ever resented the patriarchal culture. This is significant, since, imo, Cersei is portrayed fairly negatively for resenting the treatment she has received. IMO, she is portrayed as a. self- deluded (that she was capable to be a lord like Tywin), b. whiny, c. angry/ bitter, d. unnatural (going hand in hand with the awful, and, imo, completely sexist cliché of her actually wanting to have a penis in AFFC), and e. just annoying. It seemed significant that the “good” female characters never really have these same feelings though, in the intensely patriarchal culture they are living in, it would seem as natural as breathing to do so. The exception is two brief “its unfair that girls can’t fight” comments made by Arya in the first book. When compared to Cersei’s constant thoughts that she should have been a man, is being mistreated due to her sex, etc, this seems significant.

So, no, I am not trying to discount Arya, Brienne and Asha. I actually think that Arya and Brienne are quite well developed, believable characters. (Asha is far, far less so, imo, but I won’t get into that.) I’m not trying to “disqualify” them or anything. However, the fact is that their unmarried status directly supports the point I’m making. My point is that Cersei (imo) is constantly portrayed as stupid, arrogant, and/ or emasculating and annoying for taking on the traditional male role or breaking tradition. Her displaying her signet along with Robert for Joff’s shield is a good example of this, as is her choice to have Joff married with the Lanister cloak. (And I know, people are objecting this in part due to the incest rumors.) Generally, such actions are portrayed negatively, and Cersei is insulted and criticized for them. (From this thread, you’d think she did something seriously wrong by being known as “Cersei Lanister,” or by her choice to use her lion signet. Generally, this is said to be pure arrogance on her part.) And, IMO, it is portrayed that way in the book. All of Cersei’s vaguely feminist rebellions are betrayed as either stupid, arrogant, or, very frequently, as unnatural, and as vaguely (or even overtly) insulting to her husband. The only other married woman we look at in depth is Cat, and she never, ever does such things. She generally submits to her husband in all-important matters, and considers herself a stark, adopting Ned’s name and many of his customs. So, the reason why I’m “discounting” Arya, Brienne, and Asha in this argument is because they are all unmarried.

Also, the fact is that Cersei, one of the most hated villains in the series, is frequently portrayed as resenting the gender standards of her culture. Now, I know that a valid explanation for this (I’m guessing that you see things this way, but I can’t say for sure) is that Cersei is both Villain and victim; that she is portrayed as evil, but that she really has fallen victim to the gender inequalities of Westeros. Again, this is a perfectly valid interpretation, but I respectfully disagree (which I think I can do in this case without calling the author a sexist pig.)

Cersei’s resentments of the gender roles of Westeros and her thoughts that she is should have been a man/ son are frequently cited with disgust and scorn by posters on this board. (I can recall one poster saying that Cersei deserved more than the slap Robert gave her, and if she would have been born a man as she wanted, she would have been killed by now, that she was a bitch because she thought that “no man in Westeros was man enough for her, and that she wanted to be a guy herself, etc.) She is portrayed as hateful and resentful. And, most of all, the positively portrayed women who subvert gender roles simply do not resent the double standards of their culture, or feel they are being treated unfairly due to their sex.

Asha comes from the intensely sexist Iron Islands, yet never resents the mistreatment she encounters as a female. In her POV chapter in AFFC, her uncle basically points out to her that no one will follow her because she’s a woman. Even at this moment, highly significantly, she never, ever thinks “this is unfair, if I were a guy they’d be treating me better.” Despite the fact that in this situation, it would make all the sense in the world to think such a thing. Similarly, Brienne mostly thinks of herself as a freak/ unnatural. The only place where she gets angry is when all of the dudes are trying to seduce/ rape her for money. And even at this point, she does not think “this is all because I’m a girl, if I were a guy they’d treat me better,” Instead, she gets angry that they are not being true knights or whatever. And Arya does have two comments in AGOT how its unfair being a girl, but after that, nothing. Furthermore, her thoughts in that book are mostly about how she can’t live up to Sansa, everyone likes Sansa better, etc. Somewhat different from Cersei’s thoughts that she would be treated better if she were Tywin’s son, etc. Furthermore, in the later books I cannot think of other instances where Arya resents the gender inequalities of her society.

Also, though this does not go with my point, I thought I’d mention—though Arya and Brienne do go against the tradition that girls can’t fight, I believe that GRRM portrays women who fight very positively throughout the series. What he often portrays negatively are women who want power for its own sake. Cersei is shown as doing this, and it is shown as unnatural and evil that she is willing to challenge Robert, Ned Stark, and Tyrion in her quest for power. It seems that GRRM always relates far, far more to the men in these little contests of power. (Ned, Robert, and especially Tyrion are portrayed with far more sympathy than Cesei. However, if one looks at the facts, Robert and Tyrion are, prior to AFFC, not much better than Cersei, morally speaking. However, for various reasons—that I could get in to, if you want me to—it seems that Robert, Tyrion, and Ned are portrayed as far more positively than Cersei, and as “the good guys” in their contests of wits.)

There are plenty of flaws in the storyline and within the characterization of women within the story. Cersei in AFFC is an excellent example of such. Nonetheless, you come to a lot of conclusions with very little to support them. Your summation of Margaery Tyrell is a good example of this. Margaery is a fairly strong female character who poisoned a husband she didn't want that her father had arranged for her to marry, spent a lot of time cultivating the populace of the capital city, fought her mother-in-law for control of the King, etc. Yet you hurry to discount her (or any positive portrayal of women in the narrative)

Honestly, I was not trying to “discount” Margary (or Brienne or Arya, for that matter.) However, I was just saying that she did not refute the point I was making. Though I’m sure Margary can be seen as a good character and a strong woman, she does not overtly challenger the gender inequalities of Westeros or display unconventional pride in her own house/ heritage the way Cersei does. Of course, there are all different ways to be strong, and I can appreciate this. There is nothing wrong with appearing to conform in many ways to the female gender role while trying to get things accomplished in other ways, as Margary does. However, I do not think Margary is a good example to refute my claim that Cersei is portrayed negatively for overtly unconventional, “feminist” actions such as her use of her own last name, signet, or house colors. Margary would have never used the house Tyrell colors at her wedding. And in AFFC, she is portrayed as far more intelligent than Cersei for this fact. Honestly , in AFFC, Margary is very much Cersei’s foil, but I’ll won’t bother getting into that.

[LuisDantas]

Sorry if this has been pointed out already, but Cersei Lannister is hardly unique in this regard. Maybe it is because custom denies women succession rights, but I have noticed that people talk about the ancient Jenye Westerling (wife of Maegon I Targaryen) as a Westerling, not a Targaryen. I believe Zhoe Blanetree was never called Zhoe Frey either.

The way I see it, the whole point of political marriages such as those of Catelyn, Cersei, Lysa and so many others is in fact to create a confused perception of same in an attempt at placating rivalries and jealousy. But ultimately the Houses' influence is due to their economical and military power, and only marginally influenced by tradition or lineage. In Song as in real life, people claim to respect lineage because it sounds so much simpler and more noble than an admission of being swept away by such mundane things as armies and gold.

So IMO the understanding - explicit or otherwise - that led to Cersei's marriage to Robert was that House Lannister wanted to be recognized as a major factor in the proccess that put Robert in the Iron Throne, and therefore wanted the Queen to be known and recognized as Cersei Lannister. For much the same reasons, Joffrey has a double Coat of Arms and is officially named "of Houses Baratheon and Lannister".

[LuisDantas]

And about another point raised on the first page of this thread: Cersei having Lannister guards at her disposal seems to me to be above all else a display of Lannister power. House Lannister is proud of its military might and not at all shy of displaying it. We learned in Clash of Kings from Tyrion's exchanges with Cersei that it is not really unusual for Lannister might to trump tradition, at least at that point in time.

[Babeldygob]

Remember that the sigil of the royal house became a Lion fighting a Stag. With the sigil of the royal house so prominently showing the sigils of Lannister and Baratheon I think it's easy for the smallfolk to think of it as their Queen and their King on the sigil, a Lannister and a Baratheon...

[Tini]

I know that Catelyn was in the later books mostly referenced as Catelyn Stark. In the beginning of AGOT, she was alternately addressed as Catelyn Tully and Catelyn Stark. I think the woman does not replace her family name with her husband's name. She acquires her husband's name in addition to her own.

Cersei had the right to call herself Cersei Baratheon but she preferred to style herself Lannister.

Children usually take their father's name, and are considered to be half members of their mother's family. Only half because they do not possess her family name. So Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella Baratheon are half Lannister, too. It is not a great step from there to claiming full membership in the Lannister family as their mother urged them. Not if the head of House Lannister did not object. Tywin didn't.

When Tywin died, Cersei became head of House Lannister (Jaime was disqualified by being King's Guard, Tyrion by regicide). If a Great House passes through the female line, the woman's children usually take their mother's name. At this point in time, Cersei's surviving children had every right to claim membership in both Houses.

But times were changing. Joffrey had married in Lannister colors which elicited a lot of criticism. WIth the rumors of the incest abroad, Tommen had to display that he was Baratheon during his own wedding. He had to use the Baratheon cloak for welcoming his bride. Cersei wasn't happy about this, but she was forced to go along.

[holding]

As other posters have suggested, the rule seems to be that women take on their husband's name as well as their own rather than instead, and can choose how to present themselves. Cersei thinks of herself as a Lannister and is proud of it, and has reasons not to want to use Robert's name. And tbh I don't think the text is self-reflexive enough about it to even identify this as a feminist act, let alone condemn her for it.

I feel like arguments about Cersei and sexism are repeated so often, but I can't resist talking about feminism, so...

Yes, and this is fine. I have taken pains to separate the sexism of Westeros in general with certain sexist tendencies of the text itself. That is, the way certain characters are written, and certain double standards that crop up throughout the series.

While I can absolutely see what you mean with your entire post, I think when talking about this topic in particular, we also have to be careful to separate a sexist fandom from the text itself.

For example:

Cersei’s resentments of the gender roles of Westeros and her thoughts that she is should have been a man/ son are frequently cited with disgust and scorn by posters on this board. She is portrayed as hateful and resentful.

The first part is definitely true, but it doesn't follow that she is deliberately portrayed that way. Just because some people read it that way does not mean that a) everyone does, or b ) GRRM intends us to. In fact, in the example you gave about Robert hitting her, I think anyone who reads that scene and is on Robert's side is missing the point. GRRM does not want us to be on Robert's side - you might hate Cersei enough as a character to enjoy it, but that's not what the text is saying. The problem is with the reader, not with the text itself.

Having said that, I don't think it is entirely unproblematic. I totally agree with what you said about Cersei being the only woman to explicitly voice feminist concerns, although I do think they underlay pretty much all of the female narratives. It is especially unfair because it sets Cersei up as the 'feminist' voice, when of course she is anything but - in fact, she's more misogynistic than most of the men.

ETA:

However, I do not think Margary is a good example to refute my claim that Cersei is portrayed negatively for overtly unconventional, “feminist” actions such as her use of her own last name, signet, or house colors. Margary would have never used the house Tyrell colors at her wedding. And in AFFC, she is portrayed as far more intelligent than Cersei for this fact.

I'm not sure this can be made into a feminist issue - if Margaery had used the Tyrell colors at her wedding, it wouldn't have been a particular issue. I don't think anyone is criticizing women having pride in their houses - I think the point is that like much of what Cersei does, it is short sighted of her not to realize the implications of having Tommen using the Lannister colors for what traditionally is the cloak of the father's house. It also, along with other things such as comments she made in front of the Tyrells about Tommen's father, shows that she is not being nearly as careful as she needs to be. But that's not specifically to do with being female, I don't think, unless you subscribe to the theory that the whole of AFFC is about how stupid Cersei is, and therefore how all women are unfit to rule, which I think is one hell of a leap. Plus I love AFFC and will always defend Cersei's (totally consistent, internally logical) characterisation in it.