The quote that sums up how bad Dany is

[Toe]

What person in existence can claim to have accomplished as much as Tywin? Over rated? He won the war. He finished Robert's Rebellion. He killed Robb Stark without actually meeting him in battle. What more can you expect of the man? He'd be ruling Westeros by proxy if it wasn't for Tyrion (who has true plot armor.) I don't quite understand your definition of plot armor - to me, plot armor is why a highborn, spoiled nine year old girl has traveled the world, getting into misadventures with thugs, rapists and murders and remains completely unscathed. Or Jon Snow refusing to kill a wildling girl who should have informed her clan of the NW's attack, but instead helped him for no logical reason. Tywin is able to take advantage of how poor his opponents are at politics, yes, but that doesn't mean he's simply stumbled into all his glory.

Tywin did not finish the Rebellion. He was on the verge of losing the war due the failure of the commanders he appointed (2 large Lannister armies led by commanders Tywin had appointed had been annihilated) and the mistakes he made himself as commander. He had lost Harrenhal and would have been lured in a trap and destroyed if not saved by Robb's poor order to Edmure. The Tyrrel alliance which won the war was the work of Tyrion/LF, Tywin was not involved. The Red Wedding was the plane of the Freys, Tywin only accepted a proposal. In short Tywin gets credit for the works of others.... He himself almost lost the war... Despite having the richest land in Westeros from birth...

[Grogsmash]

this is the basis for why everyone who dislikes Dany dislikes her. Somehow, someway it would have worked out for Dany. It always does.

You know, someone in the series has to succeed at some point. Everyone can't end up dead at the end of the books. Are you complaining that everything has worked out for Jaime, since he manages to piss everyone off, loses a hand, and is still in power? Look at Tyrion, he kills Tywin and gets off scott free! Lets not even get started on the Gary Sue Gregor, who even gets poisoned by the Red Viper and is just turned into an even more super warrior! It is ridiculous how these guys are just given everything!!

It is true, Dany is still alive and this seems to really bother some people. However, as people have mentioned in this and many other threads, plenty of bad things happened to her.

1) Raised by Viserys.

2) Sold into slavery, raped night after night, forced to ride after being raped

3) Finally falls in love with husband and has a child, but then both are killed.

4) Takes her small force across the waste, losing many of her people, including Doreah, probably her only true friend at this point.

5) Tries to overthrow the slaver cities, in many ways succeeds but also has quite a few failures that affect her profoundly. She is clearly torn apart by what is going on in Astapor, which is why she decides to stay in Mereen and not just leave it.

6) Finds out her most trusted advisor, the only one she truly trusted at all, was betraying her the entire time.

There are many more trials but I think these are the biggest ones. I don't know, the thing I like about Daenerys is that she manages to overcome all of these while still being affected by them.

For those of you saying that she was "given" all her things, how so? She was the one that managed to work out an accommodation with her slavery/marriage. She was the one that gambled by stepping into fire and lost her child and husband to gain the dragons. She risked all at Astapor and won, but she could have died also. Her hatred of slavery and her belief that the duty of a leader is to protect the weak is all born from her trials.

The only way you can say she was "given" these things is if you completely ignore all the trials she went through and the profound effect it has had on her outlook.

[Thefalconemperor]

I always found Viserys a lot more beliveable than Dany. Dany was stockholmed by Drogo, manages to be naive and cruel at the same time and makes no sense at all sometimes. I hope she becomes salt wife to Victarion, even though I know it won't happen, since she is plot armored like Arya or Jon.

Viserys was born with eveyrthing and suddenly everyone betrays him, he losts his parents, his older awesome brother, the cousins he was growing up with, all his hopes and childhood dreams instantly smashed into the ground. The only thing he has left is the crying baby who killed her mother to come into the world. Just be grateful he instantly didn't turn insane and burned himself with Dany in the hope they would become dragons.

Honestly I don't believe even GRRM bothered to consider the implications of Viserys' past into his character. He was more like of a "look, that's what a mad Targ looks like" all along.

[mcb]

That's exactly the point - say what you want about him, but Vis never abandoned Dany. Dany abandons him. And in this universe, it is quite common to abandon children - Tyrion said he would have been if he were not a Lannister. Thoros and Areo were abandoned as well. Viserys, mad and foolish as he is, undeniably deserves some sort of credit for doing this.

Well, every abusive parent deserves the same amount of credit, then. Let's say, Randell Tarly or Craster. You can choose to give them credit simply because they could be even worse shits, if they really tried. But I'm afraid you're quite lonely with that attitude.

[Nukelavee]

Not as lonely as you think, mcb. Don't discount that the only reason Dany stands where she does is because Vis never, ever, gave up.

People don't give him enough credit for the (admittedly limited) strength of character he had to survive 15 years, without Dany ending up as the price for his room and board in some foriegn city.

People go on at length over the horror and stress of Dany's early days with Drogo, they seem to forget that Vis had 15 years of knowing the knives were waiting, that he had no friends or protectors...

and, yeah, the dragons were sheer dumb luck. Nobody plans on hatching dragons by burning their spouse and a mage together.

Oddly, Dany shows many instances of the Targ arrogance and denial...even her final exile of Mormont has less to do with his spying, and more to do with he "dares to want her as a woman".

I agree, Harry Loyld was amazing, I'll never be able to read those early books without having vis coloured by that performance.

[Noroldis]

SmashingPraise:

Tywin receives what every other high born first son receives - this I do not dispute. However rich his family is, he family's reputation was in disrepair due to his father. The reason Tywin did not turn out like his father or any other mediocre lord is that he is an amazing man.

Turning a noble family's reputation and fortunes around is a lot easier when you inherit a fantastic power base like House Lannister and the Westerlands than when you have nearly nothing and no one at the start like Dany.

Unlike any other character in these books, he has accomplished nigh everything he has ever wanted, turned his family around, and put his grandson on the throne and kept him there. Who else has accomplished so much?

Aegon the Conqueror, who made the most of his possession of three huge dragons by uniting the Seven Kingdoms under his rule and fathering a royal dynasty that lasted nearly three hundred years.

He was given lands and armies, but he was not given everything. Dany receives much better than Tywin can ever hope for - priceless war machines and enemies who are incompetent.

Tywin was given lands, wealth, a lot of bannermen and sizable armies, but perhaps even more importantly, he was given a safe and secure power base (the Westerlands) and the time needed to improve his family's lot. For Dany, on the other hand, those "priceless war machines" will require time and training before they can be a determining factor on the battlefield, her army didn't number more than a hundred or so Dothraki after Drogo's death, and she's never had the luxuries of a safe and secure power base and several decades of relative peace to improve her own and her House's fortunes. If she had been handed the same advantages as Tywin as well as the freedom and time to use them as she wanted, who knows what she might have accomplished?

As for Tywin's enemies, pray tell me what foes he faced who weren't incompetent up until he went up against Robb Stark. His unruly bannermen whom he could crush at will with the power of his House? The lickspittles of Aerys's court? Aerys himself, a madman who was convinced by Tywin's toady Pycelle to open the gates of King's Landing to the lions waiting outside? Balon Greyjoy, a shortsighted fool who had the Starks, the Baratheons and the Lannisters all come after him when he rebelled?

Yes, Dany's circumstances are a bit worse, but is it so much worse than Lysa marrying a stinky old man she hates and will continue to until she kills him? Or Lolys Stokeworth having to marry a lowborn, morally bankrupt sellsword who will only use her for his own gain? This is the culture - it sucks for Dany because she's alone and marrying a Dothraki, but it is still along the lines as what is expected of her. For that, I can find very little sympathy. Marriage in this world is what it is.

"A bit worse"? Talk about euphemism… And I thought we were comparing Dany to Tywin, not to Lysa or Lollys. But since you want to do so, I'll point out that, as you showed with the examples you mentioned, marriages involving nobles in this often-sexist world are often quite unfair to the bride, and therefore I do have some sympathy for the women caught in this snare. Dany, Lysa, Lollys and many other noblewomen we know/hear of didn't get to choose their husbands, which seems to be the norm among the nobility, whereas males often, if not always, have the option of refusing a potential bride.

And whether or not noblewomen marry willingly, after the marriage it is their husbands who have all the power in the relationship according to Westerosi social norms. Some women transcend this, true, but they are exceptions rather than the rule. The same applies to Dany and Drogo - he may have treated Dany well by allowing and even encouraging her to develop her self-confidence, but if he had wanted to, he could have made her a sex slave who was in perpetual fear of him.

EDIT: Changed misogynistic to sexist, as the former word is too strong and inaccurate for this context.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

Oddly, Dany shows many instances of the Targ arrogance and denial...even her final exile of Mormont has less to do with his spying, and more to do with he "dares to want her as a woman".

Please read that scene again. Dany does not begrudge Jorah his feelings for her. She makes it clear that she does not reciprocate them, but does so kindly but firmly, and in private.

No, Dany exiles Jorah because he refuses to admit publicly that he has done wrong, and he refuses to submit to her rule as queen. And you can say that's her being "high and mighty" and thinking she's "better than him," but establishing complete authority over your subjects is pretty freakin' important when you are trying to start a new monarchy. She couldn't have Jorah continue to constantly countermand her every decision and treat her like a child publicly. And she did it despite her personal feelings in the matter. And don't get me wrong. I love Jorah, too, and that was one of the saddest moments of the books for me. But it had to be done, and it wasn't at all petty on Dany's part.

For the record, this topic makes me want to raaaaaaaaaaage. But I won't.

[iamthedave]

Really? Regardless, Tywin is likely the most overrated character in the series... Repeatedly saved from his mistakes by the work of others and dumb luck...

Wouldn't that make Dany the most overrated character in the series +over 9000? Just her first bit of dumb luck: Being married to Drogo. From what little we've seen of other Khals, I sincerely doubt many or any others would have put up with the stuff Dany pulls as Khaleesi (not that I object to a woman having power, just pointing out that she has more than a woman is clearly meant to in that society).

I'm kind of shocked at how the discussion's developed. Figured the OP would get the mother of all slap downs. I know Dany's very popular.

Anyway, to me the quote which sums up... if not how BAD Dany is, how lucky, is in Blood and Gold I think. "You fight beside bed boys armed with spears."

After that, I could never really buy her as some sort of military force. Every time she won I was thinking 'Yeah. Try that in Westeros. See what happens.'

In her defense though, she's going to grow during the coming book. That sense of entitlement which I can see several people have found deeply annoying is going to disappear, I think, and be replaced by someone who's actually worthy to rule and knows how to do it.

I'll be very interested, though, to see if she does put one of her dragons down. As a previous poster said, up to now it's very clear that Dany's in for herself and her dragons first, and everybody and everything else second. With Drogon getting wilder and wilder, it's only a matter of time before he starts killing the wrong side.

[Queen of Everything]

2) Sold into slavery, raped night after night, forced to ride after being raped

3) Finally falls in love with husband and has a child, but then both are killed.

This is my reason for not liking Dany; in my opinion, she's horribly predisposed to Stockholm syndrome (with Drogo) and minor codependency (with Viserys, before being married off). While those things aren't exactly flaws -- in fact, they're pretty much expected in abuse victims, and you're talking to someone who's survived much abuse right here -- I wouldn't want someone like that even getting an inkling they belong on any kind of throne. I'm also glad she's spurning most men she comes in contact with, because I feel like getting involved in any kind of romance would be disastrous for her.

Also, yeah, she's way too lucky, like Jon. I honestly hope the books don't end with the two of them ruling or whatever it is a lot of people here seem to want.

EDIT: Yikes, this sounds like some minor misogyny and rape-blame on my part. Not my intention.

[CatelynFan]

It reads like a stereotypical "strong woman beats the bad boys at their own game" adventure, which really annoys me. I love Cersei as a character; she's a woman who has had to strive for every single thing she wants, and openly admits things would be easier for her if she were a man. Does she get dragons? Are her opponents complete idiots falling to simple trickery? No, and when she finally screws up too much, she's landed in a cell. Dany is too flat, too stereotypical, and reeks of a bit too much grrl power to keep my interest.

Again, I agree.

And to everyone saying that Tywin is overrated and has too much plot armor: such success and luck are a lot more believable and palatable in a character in his fifties, who's had years of training at war and politics and years of experience as the King's Hand, than in a fifteen-year-old character who has had precisely NO training in war or politics whatsoever. That's why people say Dany is a Mary Sue.

Hell, until Robb married Jeyne Westerlling and was murdered, I called him a Mary Sue, but at least he had some training in military strategy. Dany's sudden military expertise is ridiculous. She feels like a character from Wheel of Time.

[Nnorb]

Here’s the problem with Dany, distilled into a single sentence: Anyone who dislikes her is a Bad Guy.

Let’s count them off.

Robert Baratheon: Indeed, disliking Dany is a crime of such self-evident magnitude that he recants on his deathbed.

The Small Council (Renly, Pycelle, Varys, Littlefinger): They range from arrogant nitwit to the physical incarnation of evil. Renly and Pycelle do have redeeming streaks of grey, but are still active antagonists in the series.

Viserys Targaryen: “I would let all 40,000 of them fuck you, and their horses, if it got me what I want.” The blatantly obvious example.

Mirri Maz Dur: She basically Saves The World from ridiculous Dothraki shenanigans, and somehow ends up being the villain. That’ll teach you not to defy the Mary Sue!

From there it just gets silly.

Xaro Xohan Daxos is a pathetic effeminate prick for not bowing to the Sue’s every whim.

Pyat Pree and the warlocks are pants-on-head retarded. Evil, immortal, soul-sucking freaks who attack our virtuous heroine. I personally couldn’t stop laughing.

The Slavers of Astapor take children and brutally morph them into inhuman eunuch killing machines. Of course they are personally repugnant, and of course they oppose Dany.

Then there’s those slavers she has a battle with, who don’t even get a name. Not to worry! The Titan’s Bastard proxies for them, and he’s super duper evil.

Finally we end up with Mereen, who line their roads with crucified slaves. Why? BECAUSE THEY’RE EVIL. HOLD STILL WHILE I BEAT YOU OVER THE HEAD WITH THE EVIL STICK.

Seriously, it happens Every. Single. Time. If a character or group expresses a negative opinion of Dany, the narrative may as well just hang great pink big neon signs off them, stating their irredeemable villainy. I’m not sure if it’s just a product of the darkness that so obviously infuses their souls, that makes them find our heroine so offensive. Or maybe the mere act of disliking a sue is, in and of itself, morally bankrupt?

I guess we’ll never know.

[Nukelavee]

Noroldis - You're right, I might be mis-remembering that scene a bit. I'm likely blurring it with the earlier passages where Dany is angered by Jorah's desires.

But, still, she is arrogant. And the luckiest character in the book; she's like all the luck Stirling's Draka have rolled into one person.

Certainly, she suffers as much as any character does, but, each trauma leads to a huge advantage/opportunity. Her brother see's her as an object as much as a person, and trades he for an army...which results in her finding the chance to become strong and secure.

Her husband and child are murdered...and she gets 3 dragons. Even as pets, not weapons, those give her a huge image boost everywhere, opening doors for her.

Jorah arrives as a spy and/or assassin...and saves her life and helps her grow.

Comparing her and Tywin is a bit onesided, I'll admit... but, being a Targ gives her a huge advantage, nonetheless. Remember, when Tywin became Lord, the Lannister's were a joke, their own bannerman didn't take them seriously. Don't discount the huge job he had to restore their power - it wasn't done in the short time span Dany has had to work with.

Like I said, I just don't like Dany, she displays all the entitlement any noble in the books do, but without any of the flaws. That being said, I have high hopes that Barristan tells her enough, and that she admits/realizes enough, to gain a little more depth of character. I actually dislike not liking her simply because she doesn't ring a s true as some of the other POV characters.

[Toe]

Like I said, I just don't like Dany, she displays all the entitlement any noble in the books do, but without any of the flaws.

Huh? Dany is almost the only one ruler ever gives a thought of the situation of the common folk. The nobility in Westeros almost never gives them a though. How is that arrogant? She admits that she needs to learn more before going to Westeros. How is that arrogant?

[Nukelavee]

Just thinking about the common folk doesn't make you humble, or not arrogant, Toe.

It's a lot of things she says and does that makes me feel that way. Not that I expect you to agree... nothing wrong with you having a different view of her.

[Toe]

Wouldn't that make Dany the most overrated character in the series +over 9000? Just her first bit of dumb luck: Being married to Drogo. From what little we've seen of other Khals, I sincerely doubt many or any others would have put up with the stuff Dany pulls as Khaleesi (not that I object to a woman having power, just pointing out that she has more than a woman is clearly meant to in that society).

How is this more lucky that Ned, Robb, Mace, Tywin, Roberts, and so on, inheriting vast lands, incomes, and personal armies from birth?

Let us say that Dany'c current position is entirely due to luck. That is no different than the luck of all the other high nobility in Westeros.

However, unlike the the Westeros high nobility gaining this automatically from birth, Dany had to fight for this. She realized that there was a possibility that the eggs would hatch with the right sacrifice so this was not luck. She had the skill and charisma necessary for organizing and inspiring many others. She had herself made many good decisions. Now, through both luck and skill, she is ruler. That is less lucky than the high mobility being given this from birth...

[Toe]

Just thinking about the common folk doesn't make you humble, or not arrogant, Toe.

It's a lot of things she says and does that makes me feel that way. Not that I expect you to agree... nothing wrong with you having a different view of her.

She does not just think... She abolishes slavery. She decides to stay in order to learn to become a better ruler and improve the lives of the common people. Now, your heroes in the high nobility almost never gives them even a though and all feel entitled to cause widespread suffering in the name of family honor...

[CatelynFan]

She does not just think... She abolishes slavery. She decides to stay in order to learn to become a better ruler and improve the lives of the common people. Now, your heroes in the high nobility almost never gives them even a though and all feel entitled to cause widespread suffering in the name of family honor...

She is also only fifteen, and the suffering of the common people is entirely new to her. Therefore, it is natural for her to be horrified and to want to stop it. Plenty of teenagers I knew had the same reactions when they saw or read about something horrifying. The main difference is that they had no power or means to stop it, whereas Dany did.

I acknowledge that the brutalities she's witnessed had a significant effect on her. I even give her credit for trying to stop them. However, I'll give her a lot more credit for "wanting to improve the lives of the common people" if she's still as enthusiastic about it in her twenties and thirties as she was in her teens--after she's had to deal with the difficulty of ruling.

EDIT: As I read over this, it sounds like I'm trying to downgrade Dany's good points at any cost, when I'm not. I agree that she's a heroine; I just wish Martin would give her some really significant personality flaws to offset her good points.

[Nukelavee]

Toe - but, isn't it arrogant to think that she and her tiny nation of dothraki can somehow remake a culture thousands of years old, that is supported by countless other cities and states?

Yes, it is. The fate of the first city she "freed" points out that she seriously overestimates her will vs the status quo.

Like Catlynfan - I'm not making her out to be a monster, or a worse person than, say, Tywin, I'm saying I don't like an aspect of her character that I see.

[Maginor]

Tywin had his great moments, but the way he mismanaged his own family is what brought him down. He thought he needed to be ruthless to restore the family, but he was too ruthless. He was so set on making his children the people he wanted them to be that he ended up ailienating them, and suddenly none of them really shared his ideals. Then he disowns Tyrion who is really the one who is most like him in many ways and would be the only one capable to lead the family to the greatness Tywin wanted it to achieve. There was no reason for him to mistreat Tyrion the way he did, and that is what in the end cost him everything. Think of how great he could have been if he recognized Tyrion for the genius he is and worked together with him. Instead he was too afraid of other people mocking the family if he let a dwarf inherit Casterly Rock.

Sorry for being off topic. I agree that I got some Godfather vibes from Dany when Viserys was killed, sort of how the main character has his brother killed in Godfather 2 when he becomes a liability to the family. I don't see Dany as an entirely positive character.

[Noroldis]

Noroldis - You're right, I might be mis-remembering that scene a bit. I'm likely blurring it with the earlier passages where Dany is angered by Jorah's desires.

I think you have me confused with MyDogIsNamedDanerys - he/she's the one concerned with Jorah, not me. ;)