[Book Spoilers] The world hates Theon

[Millardkillmoore]

Anyone else getting the feeling that the writers really, really despise Theon?

He's mocked by Tyrion.

He's mocked by Ros.

He's mocked by Osha.

He's berated by Robb for saving his brother's life.

Just about every scene involving him in a major capacity has him being humiliated to some degree. He hasn't really even done anything particularly heinous yet. Westeros just views him as a chew toy. If the second season is true to the books, he'll:

Be mocked and berated by his father in every scene they have together.

Be humiliated by his sister.

Be talked down to by Damphair.

Be Outwitted by children.

Have a good chunk of his men abandon him.

be sent to do lowly reaving work

Plus, possibly have more original scenes where he's humiliated.

That's not even getting into whatever Ramsay has in store for him.

Yes, he does do some really horrible things in the second book, but this just seems excessive, especially considering he hasn't actually done anything important yet. All this abuse is actually making me feel bad for the guy. Your thoughts?

[Arrogant Bastard]

Anyone else getting the feeling that the writers really, really despise Theon?

He's mocked by Tyrion.

He's mocked by Ros.

He's mocked by Osha.

He's berated by Robb for saving his brother's life.

Just about every scene involving him in a major capacity has him being humiliated to some degree. He hasn't really even done anything particularly heinous yet. Westeros just views him as a chew toy. If the second season is true to the books, he'll:

Be mocked and berated by his father in every scene they have together.

Be humiliated by his sister.

Be talked down to by Damphair.

Be Outwitted by children.

Have a good chunk of his men abandon him.

be sent to do lowly reaving work

Plus, possibly have more original scenes where he's humiliated.

That's not even getting into whatever Ramsay has in store for him.

Yes, he does do some really horrible things in the second book, but this just seems excessive, especially considering he hasn't actually done anything important yet. All this abuse is actually making me feel bad for the guy. Your thoughts?

I wouldn't say excessive, pretty much every time he's been mocked so far in the show he's deserved it. He comes across as an entitled brat who thinks he's far more important than he really is, which is how I pictured him in the books.

[Zoren]

The TV writers are trying to "justify" Theon's heel-face turn.

In the books, he is a guy who may not be universally loved by all the citizens of Winterfell but at least he had everyone's respect (in contrast to the way the ironmen mock him once he returns to his homeland), making his heel-face turn truly unforgivable and unnecessarily cruel (going so far as killing two small children).

In the books Theon did what he did because he desperately sought the approval of his father, in the TV show it might as well be just some petty revenge.

[ENikolai]

I suspect that the real reason why Jory Cassel was killed off so early on, was that he expressed a positive view of Theon ("He's a good lad") in his conversation with Jamie. No wonder Jamie ended up stabbing Jory through the eye. ;)

Theon is generally a loathesome creature, though I sympathized with him when Robb scolded him for killing the wildling that threatened Bran.

[cat catching]

I don't know if I'd call Theon loathsome, so much as a child who grew up constantly being told that he was both "prisoner and guest" at Winterfell. Being reminded of that constantly is bound to build up some resentment. I'd say the TV series just went to extra effort to demonstrate that it probably wasn't very easy being a Greyjoy in a Stark world.

[NW Deserter]

Anyone else getting the feeling that the writers really, really despise Theon?

He's mocked by Tyrion.

He's mocked by Ros.

He's mocked by Osha.

He's berated by Robb for saving his brother's life.

From Tyrion, it's not surprising, as he likely finds Theon's situation a bit humorous.

From Ros, I actually enjoyed that ribbing, as it's obvious that whores are his weakness and he was trying to whine to her.

Osha didn't seem to give a fuck about him, which matches her character.

Robb also berates him in the books.

I don't really see much difference between the show and the books. He doesn't get as much screen time in the books, but he's still not very respected. And really, even in the show he's not always hated - Jory calls him a good lad and Robb still trusts him to some extent (as shown in the Godswood before Cat left Winterfell).

Honestly, his betrayal in the books seemed way too shocking to me, it didn't really make sense until a second re-read. I think it's good that they're fleshing out his resentment for his situation a little better, and they can still make his betrayal about winning his father's approval if they do it right.

[Maia]

Robb also berates him in the books.

But in the books, Robb had a reason to berate him, as he was the one who diverted the guards with his partridge hunting in the first place, which was why Bran and Robb were (seemingly) alone when the wildlings attacked.

Also, in the books, it was Robb and 2 direwolves against 2 wildlings when Theon shot the man menacing Bran, and Theon had the guards with him too, IIRC. His showing-off was unnecessary, as the situation could have been resolved differently.

In the show, OTOH, Robb seems to be completely off his rocker, since really, what else was there to do? They showed that one of Theon's previous arrows had missed, but it was too brief for most viewers to notice.

Honestly, his betrayal in the books seemed way too shocking to me, it didn't really make sense until a second re-read. I think it's good that they're fleshing out his resentment for his situation a little better, and they can still make his betrayal about winning his father's approval if they do it right.

Why was it shocking? Theon would sell anything for the sake of ambition. He had some conscience bites about it, but ambition won. He didn't really resent folks at WF, apart from, perhaps, Jon, until he saw that his northern upbringing had cost him his place as the heir and respect of the Ironborn.

Nor was Theon ever reminded that he was a captive - after all, one of the goals of his warding was to establish abiding friendship between him and the Starks (and, by extension, Robert), so that he would hopefully hold the peace and try to integrate the Iron Islands better into the 7 Kingdoms when he inherited.

IMHO, what they are doing with his character in the show is heavy-handed and stupid. Yes, it telegraphs his future actions miles in advance, but is it really necessary to do it?

[NW Deserter]

IMHO, what they are doing with his character in the show is heavy-handed and stupid. Yes, it telegraphs his future actions miles in advance, but is it really necessary to do it?

Well, that's TV for you. I'm guessing that they'll probably give him and Robb some more scenes together in the coming battles that might lessen the tension a bit. Although if they continue to give us scenes where Theon pisses Robb off (and vice versa) I might get a little concerned.

Either way, it looks like they're trying to make Theon's betrayal less of a surprise and more of a slow spiral into angst. Which I'm okay with.

[jxd]

Yeah in the TV show Robb seemed kind of a dick to Theon.

But in a twisted way, he saved Bran and Rickon from the Boltons.

[Ser Broiller]

I remember being shocked myself at Theons betrayal, but i think that was part of GRRM's talented writing skills. In the first book Theon was always kept on the periphery. You always kinda knew he was there but he always seemed somewhat inconsequential. On the other hand, when you did see him, his arrogance and somewhat casual cruelty jumped off the page (i.e. kicking the head at the execution, jumping at the chance to kill the wolf pups). Giving him a POV in CoK and allowing us to see inside his head justifies his actions but might not play out so well on the screen. I think his situation needs to be explained just a bit more so his later actions don't seem to come out of left field. We often forget that in the books we don't get to see a lot of what makes certain characters tick until much later when they get their own chapters and then we get to see them in a different light. Thats not something easily done in a visual medium.

[Boots]

I've been reading ACOK again and am once again reminded by how much of an entitled prick Theon is. I think the biggest evidence the writers dislike him is the fact his storyline, at the moment, is the most boring one. I agree that Robb was a jerk to him when he saved Bran, that was unfair. Still, the world hates Theon cause Theon deserves the hatred.

[Knight Of The North]

I think Robb was berating Theon because he could have missed, got Bran killed, or only wounded him, got Bran killed. It's more a feature of Robb's lack of faith in him than anything else, as illustrated by the line "It's not your House."

I do agree that most people have a fair bit of grief to give Theon, but Robb seems to be going through some very strenuous events (Brother incapacitated than nearly murdered, twice, his mother disappearing, half his family heading south) and he's taking it out on Theon, who's urging him to war.

Doesn't mean Theon's done much wrong, it's just he's a close friend of a man who's having to deal with ALOT.

[spitsphyre]

I totally feel like the "you're not wanted here!" in the show is counter-intuitive to the whole reason for keeping an enemy's son as a hostage/ward. In the books Theon mentions about how Catelyn was cold to him (we knew that Catelyn didn't trust how casually he took everything) and how the girls meant nothing to him but I never got the impression that the whole "You could die at any time!" was pounded into him by anyone other than himself. Despite her mistrust Catelyn even includes him in the conversation about the assassination attempt on Bran and she never questions her son's reliance on him.

Until Robb sends him back to the Iron Islands.

In the books, as soon as we are reading Theon's POV I felt like we learned that he was spoiled, arrogant, entitled, and above all else incredibly selfish. He blames others for everything bad that happens to him, he's fairly callous in his use of others - even when he knows that in the long run it will hurt them - he's rude to those he considers "less" than himself (which is pretty much everyone), and he is just all around a pretty shitty guy. Maybe not as bad as Joffry or Viserys (though he DOES share their sense of entitlement and their arrogance) but he's not exactly likable.

His intention when coming to the islands, until speaking with his father, was to actually follow through on Robb's plan (or his plan as he claims). So while he didn't really seem to care about anyone else we know that he feels something for Robb. His decision to betray the Starks was upsetting but after seeing how driven by his own needs he was it wasn't that surprising.

The humiliation he suffers once he is at his father's house is largely of his own doing. His sister would have never thought to behave toward him as she did had he not immediately come on to her and then continue to peruse her though "she was married and newly with child." Even after she tells him that the man she was married to was someone he would have to rely on, count on, work with, as the leader of the Iron Isles. His squire did not respect him because he beat him and called him an idiot. His uncle did not treat him well because of his immediate disregard of the religion of his home (that his uncle had become obsessed with) His father did not respect him because he came to him without remembering his own culture AND because he was scared that Theon was essentially a spy. His men did not respect him because he was not a good leader. He killed them when they got drunk, he ordered them about without instilling any loyalty there first. He disregarded the orders he was given - yeah they sucked but these were not people who knew him, he needed to earn their respect - in favor of a plan that was grand but even when announced, came off shaky. Then he expected them to die for him after leading them, literally, into the wolf's den.

Once he HAS Winterfell he is in a bad place. On the one hand he has men who don't know him who are uneasy with the surroundings and with his plan. On the other he has men who used to love him who are now feeling the sting of betrayal for the affection they felt for him. When the Stark boys escape I DO feel for him though I did not agree with his choice. Once he sees his hold starting to fail he doesn't step up and take accountability for his mistakes, oh no! He blames his father! He blames his sister! He blames his uncle! He blames everyone but himself.

He is, by no means, the worst character in the books and it seems he has fallen prey to a crueler one. But he is not innocent, the wrongs done against him are all in his head.

But in the show? Yeah, it feels like after they finally got around to introducing him (episode 3 I think?) everyone is making SURE he knows that he's a hostage and he had better not go thinking to highly of himself! Everyone. I'm not saying that it's out of character for the people in the show to do this but it's definitely not how it played out in the book and I think they're trying to make the audience go "well, yeah, I can see his point of view!" when he turns. We'll see how that works. He's still a spoiled, entitled jerk in the show but I feel like it's more a false bravado and need for people to see him as important after a lifetime of being talked down to?

[Xenophon]

Yeah, this is getting ridiculous. I don't mind a few characters telling Theon who he is--great TV shows shouldn't rely on such writing tricks, but it can be ok now and then. But this is out of control. Maester Luwin is constantly insulting Theon. I wonder how they're going to play it when they have to work together at Winterfell.

[spitsphyre]

Maester Luwin is constantly insulting Theon. I wonder how they're going to play it when they have to work together at Winterfell.

Theory:

TV-Show-Theon chops off Luwin's head while crying "All I wanted was for you to love me!! I was just a kid!" ;) (I'm saying it in jest but I could see that being motivation for the character on the show)

[tarantella]

I sort of feel for Theon. He was forced to become a ward of Ned Stark at a young age, pulled out of his own culture to grow up in the North. Culturally he's pretty much a northerner - you see that when he returns to his father in ACOK. Sure, some of that was Balon being a hardass, but Theon should have known not to wear a gold chain he didn't take off a man he'd killed. His uncle even calls him a Stark, and his sister has a lot more of the iron in her than him.

But he's still an outsider in the North. Everyone there knows where he's from and whose son he is, they know he's a possible rival to the Starks somewhere down the line, and that he's essentially a hostage, as Tyrion tells him. Theon is a Greyjoy when he's in Winterfell and a Stark when he's in Pyke. I can sympathize with that, being torn between two identities and not feeling right in your skin wherever you are.

Not that any of that excuses his later actions. I don't particularly like Theon because of the way he deals with his issues. Jon Snow is in a similar situation being a bastard and not really belonging, but he makes the best of his strengths. Theon unleashes his resentment against the Starks by betraying the family that brought him up - identity issues aside - and he doesn't even do that in a competent way.

[Hyper]

It's very much a question of cause and effect...

A: Is Theon a prick because he is being treated badly?

Or

B: Is Theon being treated badly because he is a prick?

I vote for the latter...

[Heir to High Garden]

I agree that the writers are being waaaay to heavy handed with Theon. When Robb was yelling at him for trying to save Bran, there's no explanation like there is in the books. Robb just flips out on the guy who saved his brothers life. Theon of course still comes off as a douche, but a pitiful one. He was taken as a hostage, but lived as a ward which is no different then an adopted son. I feel that in the book everyone was very big on keeping up with one's title and importance. As Jaime was when he was captured in GoT. He's not a prisoner is the traditional sense of the word and they wouldn't treat him like a dog because of who he is simple as that... I just don't get what the writers are doing at all. Your a prisoner! But you know go around and do what you want. Your a prisoner! But The Lady of the castle will allow you to hear her suspicions on anther great house. Your a prisoner and we ALL hate you! But yeh dude seriously come hunting with me and my crippled baby brother s'all good.

[spitsphyre]

Not that any of that excuses his later actions. I don't particularly like Theon because of the way he deals with his issues. Jon Snow is in a similar situation being a bastard and not really belonging, but he makes the best of his strengths. Theon unleashes his resentment against the Starks by betraying the family that brought him up - identity issues aside - and he doesn't even do that in a competent way.

This. And because he's too self centered to see his own faults. :P

It's very much a question of cause and effect...

A: Is Theon a prick because he is being treated badly?

Or

B: Is Theon being treated badly because he is a prick?

I vote for the latter...

I feel like that would be the case in the books (though he wasn't really treated badly), but I don't know about the show. We don't see him being mean enough at first to warrant the way he's treated.

[He Wolf of Winterfell]

I don't hate Theon myself... His only wrongs are trying to capture Winterfell after he swore his sword to Robb. Though that can be attributed to him trying to win his father's favour.

Killing two Miller's boys at the behest of Reek is bad but whatever he has suffered since at the hands of Ramsay IMO is punishment enough for his wrong doings.

But he didn't torch Winterfell nor did he kill the people there, that was Ramsay's work. Also I'm not sure he killed the two boys himself.

So all in all the only thing I feel for Theon is pity and I hope for a quick and easy death for him now

.