Most Powerful Lesser Houses

[jlk7e]

The weird thing about Ryswells and Dustins is that neither house is so much as mentioned until A Storm of Swords. They aren't among the houses mentioned when Robb summons the banners and their banners are never mentioned as part of the northern army. They also neither come to the Harvest festival at Winterfell nor send their regrets.

EDIT: Of course, Lord Dustin is mentioned as one of Ned's companions at the Tower of Joy in AGOT. But otherwise his house isn't mentioned.

I also wonder about the fact that House Dustin seems to be extinct - Lady Dustin doesn't have any children, does she? Who gets Barrowton after she dies?

[Dolorous Ali]

I also wonder about the fact that House Dustin seems to be extinct - Lady Dustin doesn't have any children, does she? Who gets Barrowton after she dies?

Ramsay. Just to make me angry...

[Maester Gandalf]

AT THE BEGINNING OF THE SERIES

North

1 Manderly

2 Bolton

3 Umber

Tully

1 Frey

2 Bracken

3 Blackwood

(Harrenhal is the most powerful seat, but Whent was far from powerful at the start of the series)

Lannister

1 Lannister of Lannisport

2 Crakehall

3 Marbrand

Arryn

1 Royce of Runestone

2 Belmore

3 Redfort

Baratheon (Stormlands)

1 Swann

2 Estermont

3 Dondarion

Tyrell

1 Hightower

2 Redwyne

3 Florent

Martell

1 Yronwood

2 Dayne

3 Fowler

Greyjoy

1 Harlaw

2 Goodbrother

3 Blacktyde

Westeros

1 Hightower

2 Redwyne

3 Lannister of Lannisport

4 Manderly

5 Royce of Runestone

Interesting theory.

The order for the North seems right. Funny how the most powerful houses tend to be in the western section of the North.

I'd remove either Blackwood or Bracken from the list, or tie them maybe, and replace them with Mallister. It's mentioned that Jason Mallister has a powerful force, though not one that could stand against the full might of the Westerlands, and Seagard has to be well-garrisoned to deal with any threats from the Iron Isles.

The Lannisters seem to have an unusual degree of control over the Westerlands, just as an observation. Anyways, Marbrand would probably be the foremost, followed (in some degree) by Crakehell and either Lefford or Banefort. Lefford holds a strategically vital castle and gold mines at the Golden Tooth, while Banefort (And this is truly just a good guess) was likely created as a barrier for the Iron Islands, sort of a Westerlands Seagard.

The Vale lords all seem to have fairly strong, equal forces, so your order there is probably right. Much like the West, the Vale seems to be rather closely united.

Aside from the Baratheons themselves, the Marcher lords are the most prominent of the Stormlands, so it should probably be Caron, Swann and Dondarrion in that order. Before Jon Connington's banishment, it was inferred that Griffin's Roost was a powerful house, and would have deserved a mention there.

The Reach looks good, though Florent might be tied with Rowan, Oakheart or Tarly.

In Dorne, the Yronwoods are undoubtedly the strongest of the bannermen, and the Fowlers would be immediately after them. Since they both possess Warden titles, they probably command the allegiance of the houses in their areas, and of the Dornish houses probably maintain the closest to a regular standing army to deal with threats from the Stormlands. The Daynes are probably third, but they might be a bit overrated due to the visibility from Dawn.

And the Iron Islands looks about exactly right.

[The Frosted King]

The lords holding cities are going to be the premiere regional powers, after the paramount lords themselves.

They're going to be the regional population centers, and likely hold a fleet.

Other houses like the Royces, Boltons, etc might have older names, and hence prestige, but pure political clout and wealth is nearly always going to go to the city lords.

Hence why Lannisters are so powerful.

Paramount lords sitting on productive gold mines, and holding a major city as well.

[The Last Direwolf]

Top 10 would probably be...

1. Hightower

2. Redwyne

3. Manderly

4. Bolton

5. Frey

6. Royce

7. Yronwood

8. Tarly

9. Umber

10. Mallister

[jlk7e]

The lords holding cities are going to be the premiere regional powers, after the paramount lords themselves.

They're going to be the regional population centers, and likely hold a fleet.

Other houses like the Royces, Boltons, etc might have older names, and hence prestige, but pure political clout and wealth is nearly always going to go to the city lords.

Hence why Lannisters are so powerful.

Paramount lords sitting on productive gold mines, and holding a major city as well.

I'd agree, in general, but the Graftons seem a distinctly second tier house.

[The Last Direwolf]

@scootydowop but remember that some other lesser houses get a lot of money through things other than city trade, namely Freys charging travellers fees to cross and the Arbor exporting their gold from King's Landing to Qarth. This could make them just as rich and influential as their city peers if not more so.

[The Frosted King]

They all may well be wealthy, but taxes gained from a booming population center filled with businesses, is likely always going to give them a significant edge.

Remember, most trade comes through a city.

When the city shuts down, the trade shuts down as well.

[nQthing]

They freys are a lesser house with power because of the bridge that connects the north and south. But they don't get nearly as much respect as other lesser houses. And now even more because of the red wedding

[Batman]

The Vale lords all seem to have fairly strong, equal forces, so your order there is probably right. Much like the West, the Vale seems to be rather closely united.

The Reach looks good, though Florent might be tied with Rowan, Oakheart or Tarly.

On second thought I would add House Grafton to the list in the Vale, either above or below House Royce. They rule Gulltown, the fourth largest city in Westeros.

I went with the Florents for no better reason than they are the Tyrells chief rivals in the Reach and a member of the royal family married one of them.

[jlk7e]

They freys are a lesser house with power because of the bridge that connects the north and south. But they don't get nearly as much respect as other lesser houses. And now even more because of the red wedding

They don't get much respect, but they have 4000 men, which is definitely more than, for instance, the Florents or the Karstarks, who are both considered relatively important lesser houses.

[DurararaFTW]

The Lannisters seem to have an unusual degree of control over the Westerlands, just as an observation. Anyways, Marbrand would probably be the foremost, followed (in some degree) by Crakehell and either Lefford or Banefort. Lefford holds a strategically vital castle and gold mines at the Golden Tooth, while Banefort (And this is truly just a good guess) was likely created as a barrier for the Iron Islands, sort of a Westerlands Seagard.

Well Tywin Lannister is both Lord of Casterly Rock and Shield of Lannisport, and the properly very big territories under Tarbecks and Reynes were put under Lannister control as well, probably. There's good reason why Tywin Lannister is said to shit gold, he'sa good deal richer then his father and likely most Lannister that came before him.

[pedroaniz]

THe houses in charge of ports tend to become immensely wealthy, possibly more then the liege lords. That reflects the real world, as the economy and power in westerns shifts toward commerce. Just look at Manderly, Hightower, etc... They get a lot of money in tariffs from traders.

[nQthing]

They don't get much respect, but they have 4000 men, which is definitely more than, for instance, the Florents or the Karstarks, who are both considered relatively important lesser houses.

Wars aren't won with swords, they are won with ravens. Or dragons

[Free Northman]

Manderly has 50 warships.

But does anyone know how many trading galleys he owns? White Harbor is a thriving port and one would think that Manderly would run galleys to Braavos and the other Free Cities to carry Northern goods.

I'd estimate he must have a few score of those, at least. Which is still very insignificant compared to Paxter Redwynne's 1000 trading galleys.

But it still serves to show that Manderly would be far richer than the Freys who are just charging a toll on some bridge.

[Hardstone]

An interesting related question is: How do the Great Houses - as individual houses - compare to the likes of the Hightowers and the Redwynnes?

Let's take the Starks as an example:

Winterfell - and Wintertown next to it - is not even a city. I'd guess at most we are talking about 5000 people living there. At most, therefore, we're talking 1000 men or so under their direct command. You'd think that the lands under their personal control (meaning not vassal land but the Starks own lands) must extend for a hundred miles around Winterfell or more, given that they're a Great House and all. And conceivably this would add many peasants to their tally, theoretically adding another few thousand men to their banner.

Unfortunately, this theory is blown out of the water by the fact that Lord Cerwyn - a vassal of the Starks - has his castle less than a day's ride from Winterfell. So that tells me that the Starks own land extends at most a day's ride around Winterfell.

This seems very strange, given that the Starks were individually the most powerful House in the North for thousands of years, BEFORE they actually got the rest of the Northern Houses to all swear fealty to them. Yet going by the pitiful size of Wintertown, and the apparent small size of the Stark lands, this seems difficult to substantiate.

In this context, the Starks as an individual House may well be behind some of the lesser Houses in the South, and even behind some of the lesser Houses in the North in terms of size and individual power.

What am I missing?

I always believed that Deepwood Motte and Torrhen's Square were Stark castles aswell. Seeing as Galbart Glover and Helman Tallhart are not Lords but Masters of those particular castles.

Ned specifically asks Catelyn to order Galbart & Helman to raise archers for Moat Cailin. Wouldn't it have been easier to ask the Reeds, Dustins or a closer House? No, because the Starks have direct control over the Glovers and Tallharts.

Someone noted above that the second most powerful houses of the North were all in the West (Karstark, Umber, Bolton). It is likely because the Starks own the East!

I'd agree, in general, but the Graftons seem a distinctly second tier house.

They might have been punished by Robert after the Rebellion as they were notably the first opposition when Jon Arryn raised his banners. They still have the city but may have lost lands to the Royces who are their neighbours.

The weird thing about Ryswells and Dustins is that neither house is so much as mentioned until A Storm of Swords. They aren't among the houses mentioned when Robb summons the banners and their banners are never mentioned as part of the northern army. They also neither come to the Harvest festival at Winterfell nor send their regrets.

Bran mentions in AGoT that the 'barrowknights' would join Robb's host on the march south like the Manderlys so they did send a token force south with Robb. And as Barbrey later said, she sent as fewer men as she dared. They were likely under the command of Ronnel Stout.

The Ryswells likely sent as few men aswell because of their own quarrels and didn't want to have a weaker position against their relatives. The Ryswell forces commander is never mentioned but it can be assumed that they never sent someone of consequence.

Also, the Bolton's needed substantial allies in the North for Dance and this opening in the barrows that wasn't explored until much later in the series helped; so it is likely GRRM was being vague to save himself a headache later on.

[Where Went Whent]

House Tarly in the south and House Bolton in the north.

[Batman]

Manderly has 50 warships.

But does anyone know how many trading galleys he owns? White Harbor is a thriving port and one would think that Manderly would run galleys to Braavos and the other Free Cities to carry Northern goods.

I'd estimate he must have a few score of those, at least. Which is still very insignificant compared to Paxter Redwynne's 1000 trading galleys.

But it still serves to show that Manderly would be far richer than the Freys who are just charging a toll on some bridge.

Manderly states that his vault is overflowing with silver. Could be false, but he is clearly very clever and since he controls such a vauable port he must have a decent number of trading galley's. Of course this is just speculation, since it is never mentioned in the books explicitly. He would be more powerful, not to mention much richer, than the Freys.

[DurararaFTW]

I always believed that Deepwood Motte and Torrhen's Square were Stark castles aswell. Seeing as Galbart Glover and Helman Tallhart are not Lords but Masters of those particular castles.

I think they are the equivalents of the Knight of Griffin's Roost, but obviously the north doesn't have knights.

[Free Northman]

I think they are the equivalents of the Knight of Griffin's Roost, but obviously the north doesn't have knights.

Glover is a lord. Tallhart is just a ser.

In fact, once you delve deeper into the northern heraldry, it is stated that a number of lesser houses, such as Woode, Bole and a bunch of other forest sounding surnames from the Wolfswood area are sworn to House Glover. They seem to be a fairly powerful House.