Most Powerful Lesser Houses

[Hardstone]

Glover is a lord. Tallhart is just a ser.

In fact, once you delve deeper into the northern heraldry, it is stated that a number of lesser houses, such as Woode, Bole and a bunch of other forest sounding surnames from the Wolfswood area are sworn to House Glover. They seem to be a fairly powerful House.

Yes, Helman Tallhart is a Ser but neither of them are Lords. Both are stated in the Dance appendix' as "Master of Deepwood Motte" and "Master of Torrhen's Square". In the earlier appendix', they are simply "of Deepwood Motte" and "of Torrhen's Square".

Clearly, the title of Master is hereditary in the North, so they do have lands, incomes and vassals like a Lord but why a different title when GRRM has stated he regrets not making more diverse titles in the first place (Duke, Earl etc.)?

I just thought it made more sense having them as Castle Keepers for the Starks as it grants the Starks more lands in their own territory and dedicated border guards.

[Free Northman]

Yes, Helman Tallhart is a Ser but neither of them are Lords. Both are stated in the Dance appendix' as "Master of Deepwood Motte" and "Master of Torrhen's Square". In the earlier appendix', they are simply "of Deepwood Motte" and "of Torrhen's Square".

Clearly, the title of Master is hereditary in the North, so they do have lands, incomes and vassals like a Lord but why a different title when GRRM has stated he regrets not making more diverse titles in the first place (Duke, Earl etc.)?

I just thought it made more sense having them as Castle Keepers for the Starks as it grants the Starks more lands in their own territory and dedicated border guards.

Agreed. I like the idea, but I doubt that those are direct Stark lands.

I recall Asha saying that Lord Glover would have agreed to cede the Stony shore to her in exchange for the return of his family. Surely he could not do that if it was direct Stark lands. Or else Asha was unrealistic in her expectations.

From a broader perspective, it is interesting to note that the Stark lands in the past included White Harbor, where many younger Stark sons or brothers were tasked with ruling the Wolf's Den on behalf of Winterfell.

Clearly, the Starks volunarily gave away much of their lands to vassals in the distant past, such as giving the Manderlys White Harbor 1000 years ago.

It is probably worth remembering that many vassal lords to the Starks hold their lands directly because the Starks gave it to them.

This includes:

The Manderlys,

the Mormonts and

the Karstarks.

It seems the Tallharts and Glovers may fall into this category as well.

[jlk7e]

The difference between a master/landed knight and a lord seems to be entirely titular. The Glovers and Tallharts are obviously as powerful as many of the lordly families.

[The Snowman]

hightower = pretty rich & powerful

freys = annoying and ready to be made into pies

[Hardstone]

Frey, Hightower, Royce, Harlaw and Yronwood appear to be the unanimous choices for the Riverlands, The Reach, The Vale, The Iron Islands and Dorne respectively.

The other regions are tougher because we don't know as much (Westerlands, Stormlands & Crownlands) or we have got so much information we can't process it (The North).

[Frey Pentos]

I'd say the Freys were the most powerful lesser house because of the strategic position of their holdings. If you want to go from North to South or vice versa in Westeros, you have to kiss Frey arse...or sail.

[Free Northman]

I'd say the Freys were the most powerful lesser house because of the strategic position of their holdings. If you want to go from North to South or vice versa in Westeros, you have to kiss Frey arse...or sail.

Not true. This is a common misconception.

The Kingsroad does not go through the Crossing. To go from North to South you don't have to use the Frey bridge at all.

Only if you want a shortcut from North to West.

From the North to the Vale, the Crownlands, the Reach, the Stormlands or Dorne, you don't need to use the Frey's bridge.

And if you want to go to the Westerlands, you can probably do so by simply going down the Kingsroad and turning right somewhere around King's Landing. A bit longer, but not much of an inconvenience.

It is only if you want to go from the North to the Riverlands that you use the Crossing. Hardly the international trade hub the Freys make it out to be.

[Frey Pentos]

Not true. This is a common misconception.

The Kingsroad does not go through the Crossing. To go from North to South you don't have to use the Frey bridge at all.

Only if you want a shortcut from North to West.

From the North to the Vale, the Crownlands, the Reach, the Stormlands or Dorne, you don't need to use the Frey's bridge.

And if you want to go to the Westerlands, you can probably do so by simply going down the Kingsroad and turning right somewhere around King's Landing. A bit longer, but not much of an inconvenience.

It is only if you want to go from the North to the Riverlands that you use the Crossing. Hardly the international trade hub the Freys make it out to be.

Does the Kingsroad pass through Frey lands to the east of the Twins? How extensive are their holdings?

[jlk7e]

It is only if you want to go from the North to the Riverlands that you use the Crossing. Hardly the international trade hub the Freys make it out to be.

I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean. It is GRRM who makes it out to be a major trading hub, not the Freys. We are told that the Freys have gotten rich off the tolls. Shouldn't we accept that this means there is a lot of trade going this way? I'm not sure what particular trade, although Seagard does seem to be a significant port, but we should accept that the Twins commands an important crossing.

[jlk7e]

Frey, Hightower, Royce, Harlaw and Yronwood appear to be the unanimous choices for the Riverlands, The Reach, The Vale, The Iron Islands and Dorne respectively.

The other regions are tougher because we don't know as much (Westerlands, Stormlands & Crownlands) or we have got so much information we can't process it (The North).

I think the Manderlys are pretty clearly indicated to be the most powerful lesser house in the North. For the Crownlands, I'd say that Rykker is the most powerful house sworn directly to King's Landing and that Velaryon is the most powerful house sworn to Dragonstone, but it's hard to say. For the Stormlands, Caron, as Lord of the Marches, seems like the one to beat.

[Maester Gandalf]

I think the Manderlys are pretty clearly indicated to be the most powerful lesser house in the North. For the Crownlands, I'd say that Rykker is the most powerful house sworn directly to King's Landing and that Velaryon is the most powerful house sworn to Dragonstone, but it's hard to say. For the Stormlands, Caron, as Lord of the Marches, seems like the one to beat.

I'm honestly befuddled here. Where do you get Rykker as the most powerful house? They were only established (Or at least granted lands) close to thirty years ago when the Darklyns were wiped out. Unless they were granted all of the Darklyn soldiers as well, they would be a fairly strong house but not the strongest.

[jlk7e]

I'm honestly befuddled here. Where do you get Rykker as the most powerful house? They were only established (Or at least granted lands) close to thirty years ago when the Darklyns were wiped out. Unless they were granted all of the Darklyn soldiers as well, they would be a fairly strong house but not the strongest.

I would think Rykker is the most powerful because Duskendale is the largest town in the Crownlands after King's Landing. The Rykkers seem to have been a noble family prior to this, so likely they had lands of their own in the vicinity before being granted the Darklyn lands. We only really know anything about three houses that owe direct allegiance to King's Landing - Rykker of Duskendale, Rosby, and Stokeworth. I don't see any particular reason to think that Rosby and Stokeworth are more powerful than Rykker; being able to make money off Duskendale's trade would seem like a significant advantage of Rykker over the other two.

[Batman]

I would think Rykker is the most powerful because Duskendale is the largest town in the Crownlands after King's Landing. The Rykkers seem to have been a noble family prior to this, so likely they had lands of their own in the vicinity before being granted the Darklyn lands. We only really know anything about three houses that owe direct allegiance to King's Landing - Rykker of Duskendale, Rosby, and Stokeworth. I don't see any particular reason to think that Rosby and Stokeworth are more powerful than Rykker; being able to make money off Duskendale's trade would seem like a significant advantage of Rykker over the other two.

I think your right, Stokeworth is described as a small noble house. Hence the reason Bronn is able to marry into it despite being scum. How do you think the Crownlands house stack up against the houses of the other areas in terms of power?

[jlk7e]

I think your right, Stokeworth is described as a small noble house. Hence the reason Bronn is able to marry into it despite being scum. How do you think the Crownlands house stack up against the houses of the other areas in terms of power?

Bronn's ability to marry Lollys has a lot to do, I think, with the fact that Lollys was incredibly unappealing as a marriage prospect to begin with, and then this was exacerbated by the fact that she got raped by half of King's Landing and was carrying a bastard child. But, yeah, if that had happened to a simple-minded Lannister girl, she'd have just been kept in seclusion in Casterly Rock as a spinster for the rest of her life rather than be married to someone like Bronn.

As far as the Crownlands nobles, I'd imagine they're not terribly powerful. We know that the Florents command 2000 men - I'd say none of the Crownlands houses is as strong as that.

[Maester Gandalf]

Bronn's ability to marry Lollys has a lot to do, I think, with the fact that Lollys was incredibly unappealing as a marriage prospect to begin with, and then this was exacerbated by the fact that she got raped by half of King's Landing and was carrying a bastard child. But, yeah, if that had happened to a simple-minded Lannister girl, she'd have just been kept in seclusion in Casterly Rock as a spinster for the rest of her life rather than be married to someone like Bronn.

As far as the Crownlands nobles, I'd imagine they're not terribly powerful. We know that the Florents command 2000 men - I'd say none of the Crownlands houses is as strong as that.

I think that I remember reading somewhere that the Crownlands as a whole (I don't know if the Narrow Sea houses sworn directly to Dragonstone were among that) could field something like 10,000 soldiers. Consider that Stannis has 5,000 men at Storm's End during his parley with Renly, and a good number of those were probably sellswords and hedge knights, meaning that probably only 3-4,000 of those men were forces from actual lords, that seems like a reasonable number.

[The-Spiders-Little-Bird]

Probably Hightower. Command the main city and are the personal patrons of the entire scientific and scholarly community of Westros. The location is pretty nice too.

[Fat Mac]

North- Manderly. Incomes coming from a city, a pretty sizeable force.

Vale- Not sure. Maybe Graftons b/c of Gulltown but I have a feeling Royce is the most powerful.

Riverlands- Frey. Rich, large number of soldiers

Westerlands- Cant say for sure. Someone like Marbrand, Crakehall or Brax

Iron Islands- No idea, possibly Harlaw

Reach- Definitely Hightower. They are probably on par with most great houses

Dorne- Yronwood I heard was the strongest after Martell

Stormlands- Not sure, the Stormlands kind of seems like a mess. So I'd guess one of the noble houses; Dondarrion, Trant, Swann, Estermont, Tarth, Connington etc.

Crownlands- I doubt any of them are noteworthy

[VivaVictarion2]

some of these have already been said but anyway...

I consider them powerful in relation to their liege lords (and their rank: Noble/Knightly/Masterly):

Manderly- simply by virtue of the fact that they rule White Harbor, the Northern city.

Umber/Karstark- seem to have significant-sized lands, powerful levies.

Bolton- wtf is that thing Roose says about a quiet ppl a peaceful rule something like that.

Ryswell/Dustin- seem to have ties to numerous Northern houses.

Mountain Clans- Badass.

Reed- they control the Neck...nuff said.

Glover/Tallhart- seem surprisingly powerful/influential for "masterly" (knightly) houses.

Royce- seem to rule Gull Town aswell as Runestone, and have atleast one other strong cadet branch (Royce of The Gates of the Moon).

Templeton- partnered w/Royce, same reasons as Glover/Tallhart.

Baelish- Littlefinger.

Frey- seem to be a real powerhouse.

Paege- close ties w/Frey, same reasons as Glover/Tallhart.

Vance- close ties with their liege lord, two seemingly powerful branches.

Erenford- (I believe they're a knightly house) close ties w/Frey, same reasons as Glover/Tallhart.

Mallister- seem to have at least a minor naval force, lands dominated by coastline.

Caron/Foote- Wardens of the Dornish Marches.

Connington- same as Glover/Tallhart, maintained some influence after their demotion (according to Jon Connington).

Estermont- close ties w/Baratheon.

Hayford- close ties w/Lannister.

Rosby- seem to have some influence(?) in King's Landing.

Celtigar- Rich, apparently.

Velaryon- Lords of the Tides, apparently.

A bunch of Tyrell bannermen, in particular...

Redwyne- ties w/Tyrell, and very powerful navy.

Fossoway- * * two branches

Hightower- * * rich, rich, rich, they run Oldtown, which obviously makes them highly highly influential.

Florent- supposedly very wealthy prior to their downfall.

Tarly- * * Randyll very well respected/feared.

Bulwer- * *

Yronwood- close ties w/Martell. The Bloods Royal, apparently. close w/ Prince Quentyn. Wardens of ways, or something.

Fowler- * * Wardens of stuff, the Fowler twins get around.

Dalt/Santagar- * * same as Glover/Tallhart.

Qorgyle/Gargalen- * *

Dayne- two seemingly strong branches.

Harlaw- control arguably the most powerful of the iron islands, various powerful branches (Ser Harras, Humpback Hotho, etc).

Botley- Lordsport seems like a relatively prosperous port.

Orkwood/Drumm/Goodbrother/Blacktyde- seem to control strong islands/lords.

Dunno, seems about right to me... :dunno:

[The Frosted King]

Graftons rule Gulltown.

[Daemon Dagoghlor]

House Hightower is possibly the most powerful individual house in Westeros. They control the second largest city after King's Landing and as such are immensely wealthy and have a huge army. Their honorable nature and dislike of politics and war are what keep them from deposing the Tyrells. Randyll Tarly, a man renowned for his military expertise considers them the most powerful house in the Reach.

House Redwyne has the largest fleet in Westeros and a good number of land forces at their disposal.

House Rowan controls the largest individual lands of any southern house including everything along the northern border of the Reach.

House Manderly controls the only major port in the North, and we see that they only sent a small portion of their men south with Robb.

House Tarly is described as having wealthy lands and a strong military tradition. They are almost always in the vanguard of the Reach and Lord Randyll is given almost complete autonomy when placed in command of the Tyrell forces.