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Stannis is a righteous man according to GRRM


Noroldis

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While digging around an old Word file for ASOIAF that I've compiled over the years, I came across this passage in an interview with GRRM, which I thought would be interesting to share:

And it is important that the individual books refer to the civil wars, but the series title reminds us constantly that the real issue lies in the North beyond the Wall. Stannis becomes one of the few characters fully to understand that, which is why in spite of everything he is a righteous man, and not just a version of Henry VII, Tiberius or Louis XI.

I wonder what others think of this? Certainly I give props to Stannis for being the only king who came to care more about saving the realm than sitting his arse on the Iron Throne, but his adamant insistence that he and he alone is the only rightful king of Westeros will IMO sooner or later get him killed, so while he does seem righteous, he also appears to be self-righteous in equal measure.

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I wonder what others think of this? Certainly I give props to Stannis for being the only king who came to care more about saving the realm than sitting his arse on the Iron Throne, but his adamant insistence that he and he alone is the only rightful king of Westeros will IMO sooner or later get him killed, so while he does seem righteous, he also appears to be self-righteous in equal measure.

Doesn't he sort of admit he was wrong about this when he arrives at the wall? I remember him saying something about how he had put his right before his duty, but now he would earn the throne by proving worthy of it.

In any event Stannis may want the throne for himself, but the fact that he recognizes that the king has an extremely important duty to protect the realm against the others puts him in an entirely different category from all the other claimants, IMO. Everyone else is concerned with their own good or their family's honor. Stannis sees clearly that all this pales in comparison to the existential threat to all of Westeros which is growing beyond the wall.

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But is it Melisandre who really decided they should fight the Others? If so, wouldn't that call his righteousness into question?

IIRC, it was Davos who brought the situation at and beyond the Wall to Stannis's attention by reading the letter from the Night's Watch just when Stannis was set to execute him for sending Edric Storm beyond his reach. At the Wall, Stannis tells Jon that it was because of Davos that he'd come, that it was Davos who convinced him he should be saving the realm to win the throne instead of the other way around. We don't know how much or how little of a role Melisandre played in convincing Stannis to go to the Wall.

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But is it Melisandre who really decided they should fight the Others? If so, wouldn't that call his righteousness into question?

Maybe. But he does seem to be pretty well persuaded by her (edit: and Davos, as other have pointed out) and what he sees at the wall. It's not a Saul/Paul road to Damascus moment, but Stannis does appear to have some sort of realization of how dangerous the Others are, and he seems a somewhat changed man as a result, IMO.

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But is it Melisandre who really decided they should fight the Others? If so, wouldn't that call his righteousness into question?

It was Davos and not Melisandre (at least, it was Davos who has given him the letter from the Nights' Watch).

Melisandre was too busy planning to burn Edric Storm on a stake.

Anyway, I do agree that Stannis is a righteous man. But unfortunately he got caught up with that red priest and because his need of her powers he got involved with many evil acts.

I would be surprised if Stannis survives the next book but at the end I feel simphaty for him and find him the better of the three Baratheon's brother.

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I agree it was Davos who provided the reason, but we're never sure what goes on between Stannis and Melisandre in private. I'm hoping Stannis simply decided to do the right thing, and that she didn't persuade him for her own reasons.

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I think Stannis is a man with an iron sense of duty but he is also an arch pragmatist and has been shown to be willing to compromise these ideals when it benefits him. He seems a man convinced of his own righteousness, but it isn't tempered by any sense of compassion. In many ways Davos is his conscience, but without The Onion Knight Stannis has the potential to become a tyrant. Looking at the world in terms of right and wrong and black and white is extremely dangerous.

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I think that Stannis is just obsessed with the stated ideals of his feudalistic society. The next eldest brother inherits the throne when the late king has no legitimate offspring. No questions. The vassals are loyal to their liegelord. No questions. The king upholds justice and defends the realm. No questions.

Most of the ideals of Westrosi society are really terrible, but that last one is alright. Stannis follows them all to the letter, even when he doesn't want to, and that leads him to do things that are both terrible, and good.

A righteous man is someone who is "characterized by or proceeding from accepted standards of morality or justice" according to a quick google search, and I think that sums up Stannis quite well, once you realize that you, as a modern person, probably don't accept most of the once-accepted standards of morality or justice.

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Stannis made himself my favorite contender for the Iron Throne and most of the Seven Kingdoms.

Davos showed him the letter. It had been previously given to Melisandre, who did not feel it important enough to bring to Stannis's attention.

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Stannis did not one act that is against the Westerosi law. He killed his traitor brother, the traitor castellan, tried to free KL of the Lannister traitors and then protected Westeros in the north.

He may have some queer believes and Melissandre is not the nicest person around for sure, but hey, it seems perfectly acceptable for King Joffrey to often let people kill each other for his amusement, so i give king Stannis a pass on this one.

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Stannis Baratheon reminds me of Gunnery Sergeant Hartman, the drill instructor from Full Metal Jacket, in a way. He's an incredibly harsh and unyielding man with high expectations, but he's ultimately doing what's required for a man in his position to fulfill his obligations in a lawful manner. Despite their iron exteriors, you get a sense that they're good and decent men on the inside once you get to know them (well at least I get that impression). Gunnery Sergeant Hartman may be a bit of a caricature, but you get what I mean.

I don't perceive Stannis to be a petty and envious type of man. He's motivated by justice, and the Iron Throne should justly be his. In example, if I work hard while a team member does nothing, yet the team member is recognized for my hard work, I would not be envious in thinking that I should have received the recognition; it should have been mine as a matter of justice. So, any action on my part would be motivated by the desire to set things right.

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Stannis is a good example of how doing the just thing and doing the honourable thing aren't necessarily one and the same. Is absolute justice without being tempered by compassion true justice at all? I believe not, but that may not be everyone's perspective. The law above all else? Not for me.

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I think that Stannis is just obsessed with the stated ideals of his feudalistic society. The next eldest brother inherits the throne when the late king has no legitimate offspring. No questions. The vassals are loyal to their liegelord. No questions. The king upholds justice and defends the realm. No questions.

Most of the ideals of Westrosi society are really terrible, but that last one is alright. Stannis follows them all to the letter, even when he doesn't want to, and that leads him to do things that are both terrible, and good.

A righteous man is someone who is "characterized by or proceeding from accepted standards of morality or justice" according to a quick google search, and I think that sums up Stannis quite well, once you realize that you, as a modern person, probably don't accept most of the once-accepted standards of morality or justice.

Well said. :thumbsup:

I think GRRM constructed Stannis to conform to this kind of social/lawful order - but I think the character has become more complex than this.

Obviously Stannis wants a certain amount of love and acceptance from those around him, even though he never actually seems to get it. And he has shown that he is capable of transcending the hard line of justice he is supposed to characterize when he needs to.

The idea of righteousness is interesting here.

Is Stannis righteous?

Is he Self-righteous?

Can he be both?

Personally, I don't think the self-righteous description is completely accurate because Stannis transcends his sense of self in pursuing what he sees as right and wrong.

Sure, you can say that he is self-righteous insofar as he has an inflexible idea of right and wrong, and that he himself is the chief vehicle through which he pursues and manifests this ideal. (Perhaps this makes him self-serving, but I doubt you can say that Stannis' rigid ideals ultimately serve his best interests).

Stannis is attempting to follow a code of conduct that conforms to an objective social standard of right and wrong. He doesn't create or truly interpret the rule of law so much as he attempts to faithfully embody it.

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Stannis made himself my favorite contender for the Iron Throne and most of the Seven Kingdoms.

Davos showed him the letter. It had been previously given to Melisandre, who did not feel it important enough to bring to Stannis's attention.

Agreed, I think he is the one most deserving. He is not perfect but he believes in duty and honor, like Ned did, but he also isnt stupid or idealistic.

I hope he becomes king of the seven kingdoms in the end. I favor him over Dany anyway.

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Agreed, I think he is the one most deserving. He is not perfect but he believes in duty and honor, like Ned did, but he also isnt stupid or idealistic.

I don't know.

Is he deserving? Why?

Ned and Stannis are not parallels.

Ned is much more honorable than dutiful, and Stannis is much more dutiful than honorable.

I'll give you that Stannis isn't necessarily stupid. But I wouldn't say he lacks idealism. For the most part it is Stannis' inflexible ideals that define him as a character.

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Agreed, I think he is the one most deserving. He is not perfect but he believes in duty and honor, like Ned did, but he also isnt stupid or idealistic.

I hope he becomes king of the seven kingdoms in the end. I favor him over Dany anyway.

He'd get torn apart by an angry King's Landing mob after several attempts to shut down all the brothels. Just look at how pissed they got when Tywin instituted a penny tax.

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