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mormont

The R+L=J thread, part XII

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For further discussion of this particular fan theory. Previous part here. Please do read it before posting.

And please do stay on-topic. Discussion of Jon's parentage is fine. Discussion of the alleged parentage of any real-life royalty should be taken up elsewhere.

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Brought over from the previous thread…

Zed writes:

Nobody seriously expects GRRM to write it so that once Jon is revealed to be the long-lost son of Prince Rhaegar, the entire country recognizes him, falls to their knees, and makes him king by popular acclaim. That's not how the real world works, and that's not how ASoIaF works.

What might happen is that a few people in crucial positions might find out - like Dany - through some connection with the dragons or some other undisputable way. This might, by the end of the series, lead to Jon being in a position to rule. But only if the plot develops that way, and not because he has some undeniable claim to the throne.

Agreed, and personally I think its probably moot because the Kingdom as in a united 7 kingdoms under one King/Queen on the iron throne will probably cease to exist as it is after the civil war, with the Winter and the Others coming down from the North. Danaerys may show up expecting what her brother fantasized about, to oust and have revenge upon the usurpers, when really there wont be much left for to re-conquer and there will be bigger fish to fry in order to save what is left of Westeros.

Even if Jon learns of his true parentage, and even if Rhaegar had persuaded the Faith to marry him to Lyanna even though he was already legally married to Elia and this could somehow be proven, it doesnt mean Jon will be acclaimed King except perhaps by some factions who want to use Jon to get back at the Lannisters or just sow discord between the various claimants armies. Just like with Robb naming Jon heir to Winterfell, its a matter of serious dispute whether that claim has any validity as Robb is not considered a legitimate King by at least some of the factions (particular Lannisters and Baratheons). For that matter, it doesnt mean that Jon will quit the Nights Watch because some disgruntled party would still consider him to be a deserter and try to arrest and kill him unless the NW released him from his oath. Plus, its more likely that hed be a target of someone who wants to get him out of the way.

As much as I believe R+L=J and would like to see Jon and Dany fighting together to defeat the Others, I dont think Jon would want to be King of all Westeros anyway. Dany aspires to be Queen but as I said above, I dont think it will matter because Westeros will be a very different place. I could see Jon eventually serving as Lord of Winterfell if Bran, Rickon, Sansa, Arya and Benjen are all dead or disinherited, but as a son of Lyanna he wouldnt be next in line of succession without Robbs decree and bequest (and everyone accepting that as valid), or he could be named Hand to the King of the North (Bran or Rickon) or Queen Danaerys if he were released from his oath the NW, but I just dont see Jon as ruler of all Westeros regardless of who his Father was. I dont see him as consort to Dany either because intermarriage is not something that Northroners practice even if Targs do (I could see them becoming lovers before the truth of their relationship is revealed… that would be rather tragic, actually).

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Brought over from the previous thread…

Zed writes:

Agreed, and personally I think it’s probably moot because the “Kingdom” – as in a united 7 kingdoms under one King/Queen on the iron throne – will probably cease to exist as it is after the civil war, with the Winter and the Others coming down from the North. Danaerys may show up expecting what her brother fantasized about, to oust and have revenge upon the “usurpers”, when really there won’t be much left for to re-conquer and there will be bigger fish to fry in order to save what is left of Westeros.

Even if Jon learns of his true parentage, and even if Rhaegar had persuaded the Faith to marry him to Lyanna even though he was already legally married to Elia and this could somehow be proven, it doesn’t mean Jon will be acclaimed King except perhaps by some factions who want to use Jon to get back at the Lannisters or just sow discord between the various claimants’ armies. Just like with Robb naming Jon heir to Winterfell, it’s a matter of serious dispute whether that claim has any validity as Robb is not considered a legitimate King by at least some of the factions (particular Lannisters and Baratheons). For that matter, it doesn’t mean that Jon will quit the Nights Watch because some disgruntled party would still consider him to be a deserter and try to arrest and kill him unless the NW released him from his oath. Plus, it’s more likely that he’d be a target of someone who wants to get him out of the way.

As much as I believe R+L=J and would like to see Jon and Dany fighting together to defeat the Others, I don’t think Jon would want to be King of all Westeros anyway. Dany aspires to be Queen but as I said above, I don’t think it will matter because Westeros will be a very different place. I could see Jon eventually serving as Lord of Winterfell if Bran, Rickon, Sansa, Arya and Benjen are all dead or disinherited, but as a son of Lyanna he wouldn’t be next in line of succession without Robb’s decree and bequest (and everyone accepting that as valid), or he could be named Hand to the King of the North (Bran or Rickon) or Queen Danaerys – if he were released from his oath the NW, but I just don’t see Jon as ruler of all Westeros regardless of who his Father was. I don’t see him as consort to Dany either because intermarriage is not something that Northroners practice even if Targs do (I could see them becoming lovers before the truth of their relationship is revealed… that would be rather tragic, actually).

Don't forget the assumption that Dany is barren and by end of aSoIaF this doesn't change, and if Jon won't be induced to at least to provide an heir or baby Aegon doesn't appear out of nowhere, Targ's line ends with Dany and we are back where we started at beginning of GoT.

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Don't forget the assumption that Dany is barren and by end of aSoIaF this doesn't change, and if Jon won't be induced to at least to provide an heir or baby Aegon doesn't appear out of nowhere, Targ's line ends with Dany and we are back where we started at beginning of GoT.

I'm thinking more along the lines that LadyMary is.

I honestly don't see Jon and Dany's purpose as reviving the Targaryen line of kings. That is what Dany wants, Jon has no idea he could be a Targaryen, but in the end it will come down to them saving the world from the advance of the Others.

Jon is my absolute favorite character, but I've said before I wouldn't be surprised if R+L=J turns out to be true, he realizes it, and instead of saying "okay, I'm King, bye bye night's Watch" he stays as Lord commander and ends up giving his life in the fight against the Other's. R+L=J just makes it a better story that the true king, if he is legitimate that is, denounces himself, gives up the throne and dies at his post as he vowed too instead of the "hidden heir" comes to power at the end.

I won't hate it if he does end up on the throne, but I don't think he will survive, which doesn't upset me if he goes out in a blaze of glory.

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Don't forget the assumption that Dany is barren and by end of aSoIaF this doesn't change, and if Jon won't be induced to at least to provide an heir or baby Aegon doesn't appear out of nowhere, Targ's line ends with Dany and we are back where we started at beginning of GoT.

Mr. Martin has all but stated that Aegon is alive. He won't be "out of nowhere," he could very well be someone we already know (or will know as a non-Aegon first).

Jon is my absolute favorite character, but I've said before I wouldn't be surprised if R+L=J turns out to be true, he realizes it, and instead of saying "okay, I'm King, bye bye night's Watch" he stays as Lord commander and ends up giving his life in the fight against the Other's. R+L=J just makes it a better story that the true king, if he is legitimate that is, denounces himself, gives up the throne and dies at his post as he vowed too instead of the "hidden heir" comes to power at the end.

I agree; Winterfell was much more important for him and he turned it down just to stay a Snow and a man of the Night's Watch. Now he would be turning down a throne he cares less about to stay Lord Commander.

Anyway, even if Jon is Rhaegar's son, he isn't currently a legitimate heir (he would have to be legitimized by the monarch). Rhaegar was already in a consummated, non-annulled marriage when he kidnapped Lyanna.

I won't hate it if he does end up on the throne

I'd be pretty annoyed. Really everything in his character says he wouldn't; it just seems to be a fan idea that people will bend anything to make sound possible.

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Mr. Martin has all but stated that Aegon is alive.

No he hasn't. All he's stated is that Rhaenys is definitely dead. That doesn't mean Aegon is definitely alive.

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No he hasn't. All he's stated is that Rhaenys is definitely dead. That doesn't mean Aegon is definitely alive.

Plus this could be a Red Herring where some silver haired guy (ex. Aurane Waters) claims to be Aegon but really isn't. So GRRM might be playing us by not confirming Aegon's death or alive status at the same time bringing in a "fake heir".

I would expect this be sprang on Dany not right now when she is meeting her suitors in Meereen (aka meereenese knot) but later when she conquers or starts conquering Westeros and then the fake would challenge her when she is at cusp of victory for the Iron Throne and her dragons!

But in terms of believing that Aegon really is alive, I believe it less than I believe that Jon will end up with Iron Throne at the end and happily ever after ending for aSoIaF

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But in terms of believing that Aegon really is alive, I believe it less than I believe that Jon will end up with Iron Throne at the end and happily ever after ending for aSoIaF

I really don't think Aegon is alive either, I believe the "Mummer's Dragon" is intended to be somebody passed off as Aegon that in fact is not. It may even turn out to be one of the three treasons, like the treason for gold if the fake Aegon tries to win the crown/throne/kindgom = gold/money/power from Dany.

At first she may want to believe it, then it turns out to be a treason. Just throwing it out there. In the end I think it will turn up that the only other Targaryen left besides Dany is Jon because of R+L=J, and wouldn't it be a crazy twist if Stannis ends up being the third dragon head because of his Targaryen grandmother? Now that's some cracked pottery for ya!

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Today i had an interesting thought about the whole Tower of Joy scene. Why did Ned go there with only 7 men? I had a whole army at storms end but only choose 7 to go with him?

He must have at least contemplated the idea of a few kingsguard being there, because they were nowhere else.

My theorie to explain this is, that Ned knew that Lyanna liked Rhaegar and the possibility that she might be pregnant. Because of Roberts hatred for Targs he did not want anyone he did not trust 100% find out about it.

As for the endgame, what if they destroy the Others thus making the nightwatch unnecessary, disbanding it and giving Jon the throne or maybe he swaps positions with Dany, she becoming nights commander and he king.

Should Dany become fertile again, well, I dont the a suitor that fits the bill. Sure Quentyn Martell would fit, but oh the irony if Dany first agrees to him and then runs of with Jon, just like Rhaegar did run of with Lyanna.

The only thing that strikes me about Jon and Dany is the incest. I mean, incest does not work out well in the series so i dont know.

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Today i had an interesting thought about the whole Tower of Joy scene. Why did Ned go there with only 7 men? I had a whole army at storms end but only choose 7 to go with him?

He must have at least contemplated the idea of a few kingsguard being there, because they were nowhere else.

My theorie to explain this is, that Ned knew that Lyanna liked Rhaegar and the possibility that she might be pregnant. Because of Roberts hatred for Targs he did not want anyone he did not trust 100% find out about it.

This is a very good point, Ned only took Northerners with him while looking for Lyanna. Not only that, he only took 6 guys he was friends with and trusted with whatever it was they uncovered in their search. Why do that if you don't have some sort of suspicion that Lyanna wasn't kidnapped and possibly ran off willingly with Rhaegar.

As for the endgame, what if they destroy the Others thus making the nightwatch unnecessary, disbanding it and giving Jon the throne or maybe he swaps positions with Dany, she becoming nights commander and he king.

Lots of people feel the Others will be completely defeated and there will be no need to have the Nights Watch anymore but to me that makes no sense at all. The Nights Watch still exists and the Others were defeated before right? You think AA or/the Last Hero just didn't have what it takes to finish them off? Not likely, everything is cyclical, like the seasons the Others and the Long Night will come again, if it happened thousands of years ago I'm sure that everyone will chalk it up to children's stories in another couple thousand years and wake up one day to a big surprise of a red comet flying across the sky and soon the dead come walking. They may think they've won for the time being, but the Nights Watch didn't last thousands of years because they thought "we beat them for sure, they are never coming back, no question."

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Lots of people feel the Others will be completely defeated and there will be no need to have the Nights Watch anymore but to me that makes no sense at all. The Nights Watch still exists and the Others were defeated before right? You think AA or/the Last Hero just didn't have what it takes to finish them off? Not likely, everything is cyclical, like the seasons the Others and the Long Night will come again, if it happened thousands of years ago I'm sure that everyone will chalk it up to children's stories in another couple thousand years and wake up one day to a big surprise of a red comet flying across the sky and soon the dead come walking. They may think they've won for the time being, but the Nights Watch didn't last thousands of years because they thought "we beat them for sure, they are never coming back, no question."

It's not a certainty that it would be that cyclical. It just happened ONCE. There was ONE Long Night that we know of. Also, the Nightswatch and subsequently the Wall were built after the Long Night. The Last Hero/AA knew the last time they defeated the Others that they will come back. THis doesn't mean, it will happen that way again. If GRRM would be extremely cruel (he is capable of doing that), he could make the Others win and every human in Westeros is forced to flee back to Essos, the Islands (no idea if the Others have ships or the ability to get to the Islands).

Now, there are two possibilities, this time the Others will be defeated for ever, or they will be fought back, the Wall reestablished and the wait for the next Long Night will begin.

Both ends are equally possible. I personally think that this time the Others will be defeated for good. But I can be wrong.

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It's not a certainty that it would be that cyclical. It just happened ONCE. There was ONE Long Night that we know of. Also, the Nightswatch and subsequently the Wall were built after the Long Night. The Last Hero/AA knew the last time they defeated the Others that they will come back. THis doesn't mean, it will happen that way again. If GRRM would be extremely cruel (he is capable of doing that), he could make the Others win and every human in Westeros is forced to flee back to Essos, the Islands (no idea if the Others have ships or the ability to get to the Islands).

Now, there are two possibilities, this time the Others will be defeated for ever, or they will be fought back, the Wall reestablished and the wait for the next Long Night will begin.

Both ends are equally possible. I personally think that this time the Others will be defeated for good. But I can be wrong.

I think its like with Lord of the Rings, where the evil is defeated at the end. And either Jon or Dany will die to do it.

The nightwatch was needed FIRST to fight of the others, but then, as memory faded, they protected the Kingdoms against the Wildlings. I think the wall can be compared the hadrians wall in england.

But this is the topic of other threads :)

Another thought about R+L => Jon:

Does the song of fire and ice mean fire battles ice or does ice and fire together fight the darkness. Because, if you think about it, Rhaegars 2 childs where pretty much in the fire department (dornish mother, targ father) so we have a complete lack of ice.

And Rhaegar seems pretty obsessed with this Prince who was promissed story. I mean he did not like fighting but then *bam* i will become a warrior (and he became one of the best at that).

Maybe he then learned "nope, you have to father 3 childs" and so on.

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This is a very good point, Ned only took Northerners with him while looking for Lyanna. Not only that, he only took 6 guys he was friends with and trusted with whatever it was they uncovered in their search. Why do that if you don't have some sort of suspicion that Lyanna wasn't kidnapped and possibly ran off willingly with Rhaegar.

I'm hoping more information will be revealed some day before the series ends probably by Howland Reed, but I think Ned took Northerners to the Tower of Joy after Storms End because that's who were willing to go off on Ned's personal quest to find Lyanna. These were his bannermen after all, as well as his personal and most trusted friends. I can't imagine the rest of Robert's forces wanting to go down to Dorne for something that had no bearing on the new regime, except to Ned and the Northerners.

Lots of people feel the Others will be completely defeated and there will be no need to have the Nights Watch anymore but to me that makes no sense at all. The Nights Watch still exists and the Others were defeated before right? You think AA or/the Last Hero just didn't have what it takes to finish them off? Not likely, everything is cyclical, like the seasons the Others and the Long Night will come again, if it happened thousands of years ago I'm sure that everyone will chalk it up to children's stories in another couple thousand years and wake up one day to a big surprise of a red comet flying across the sky and soon the dead come walking. They may think they've won for the time being, but the Nights Watch didn't last thousands of years because they thought "we beat them for sure, they are never coming back, no question."

My wishful thinking here: I hope the Nights Watch will no longer be necessary because personally I think life on the Wall and service in the Nights Watch pretty much sucks being cold, desolate, celibate and poor to the point of beggary because few in the 7 Kingdoms believe the threats are serious. This is especially so for those who volunteered to join because they believed it was honorable and necessary at the time but might have other, better options afterward. That would include men like Jon and Sam at least. Jon having proved himself a leader (despite others' attempts to undermine his authority) could go into service for whichever King or Queen survives the apocalypse coming down from the frigid North (if he doesn't command some forces or become a Lord somewhere) and Sam could be a Maester pretty much anywhere.

As far as the story development goes, the difference between this time and last is that there are dragons. Dragon fire and dragon glass weapons kill the Others in a way that ancient ancestor's weapons didn't, so I think it's conceivable that they will destroy the threat completely.

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I'm hoping more information will be revealed some day before the series ends probably by Howland Reed, but I think Ned took Northerners to the Tower of Joy after Storms End because that's who were willing to go off on Ned's personal quest to find Lyanna. These were his bannermen after all, as well as his personal and most trusted friends. I can't imagine the rest of Robert's forces wanting to go down to Dorne for something that had no bearing on the new regime, except to Ned and the Northerners.

You mean like the future Queen of Westeros, reason to start the war and sister to one of the 3 Highlords that just won the?

Sure noone would care about her.

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You mean like the future Queen of Westeros, reason to start the war and sister to one of the 3 Highlords that just won the?

Sure noone would care about her.

Who said no one would care about her? Why would Ned need a whole army to bring back one little sister when the war was over except for the clean up? Maybe those other knights and lords had, you know, their own business to attend to and lands to protect and rule and wanted to get back to it. If Ned needed a contingent to go along it makes sense that his fellow Northmen would have the most reason to go along with him to find Lyanna.

Besides, it's safe to assume that Ned wasn't expecting to need a small army to reclaim his sister. If his fevered dream is any clue, Ned didn't know the three Kings Guardmen would be at the Tower of Joy and he had expected to see them at the Trident with Rhaegar, or in the Red Keep protecting the King, or on Dragonstone protecting Queen Rhaella and Prince Viserys and was surprised to find them at a tower in Dorne protecting his sister.

Lyanna was personally important to Ned and his fellow Northmen friends and bannermen because she was the Lord of Winterfell's sister first and Robert's fiance second. True, she may have also been the future Queen of Westeros assuming Robert would have still wed her if she'd lived, after having been Rhaegar's...whatever for a year. Yes, Robert obsesses about Lyanna after she's dead because he can safely put her on a pedestal and treat her like a martyr and a victim of his hated enemy, but it might have been different if he was faced with marrying a woman who would have been considered damaged goods whether she went willingly or unwillingly with Rhaegar according to the standards of their time (remember how Lysa was treated by her own father after getting pregnant with Petyr's child?). Assume for a moment that Lyanna gave birth to Rhaegar's bastard (or trueborn) son and had lived. What would Robert had done to her child? What would he have done to her if she'd made it clear she wanted to keep her baby and tried to protect him from Robert's wrath?

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My wishful thinking here: I hope the Nights Watch will no longer be necessary because personally I think life on the Wall and service in the Nights Watch pretty much sucks being cold, desolate, celibate and poor to the point of beggary because few in the 7 Kingdoms believe the threats are serious. This is especially so for those who volunteered to join because they believed it was honorable and necessary at the time but might have other, better options afterward. That would include men like Jon and Sam at least. Jon having proved himself a leader (despite others' attempts to undermine his authority) could go into service for whichever King or Queen survives the apocalypse coming down from the frigid North (if he doesn't command some forces or become a Lord somewhere) and Sam could be a Maester pretty much anywhere.

As far as the story development goes, the difference between this time and last is that there are dragons. Dragon fire and dragon glass weapons kill the Others in a way that ancient ancestor's weapons didn't, so I think it's conceivable that they will destroy the threat completely.

I'm not so sure they would destroy the threat completely. I don't think anything can possibly be destroyed completely. Also I'd want to think that, purely because the threat that the Nights Watch is meant to protect (as opposed to the one they thought they were guarding, against having taken for granted thousands of years worth of history that has since passed into legend and is hence fictional) will become so very real and so very dangerous, that once this has happened the Nights Watch will once again be held in the sort of esteem that make its words true: noblemen will be clamouring for the honour of serving, and all the forts from the Bay of Seals to the Frostfangs will be garrisoned with thousands of able knights and free folk (they will also - at Jon's command - rewrite the rules on celibacy and black cloaks...) Well, one can dream.

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I'm not so sure they would destroy the threat completely. I don't think anything can possibly be destroyed completely. Also I'd want to think that, purely because the threat that the Nights Watch is meant to protect (as opposed to the one they thought they were guarding, against having taken for granted thousands of years worth of history that has since passed into legend and is hence fictional) will become so very real and so very dangerous, that once this has happened the Nights Watch will once again be held in the sort of esteem that make its words true: noblemen will be clamouring for the honour of serving, and all the forts from the Bay of Seals to the Frostfangs will be garrisoned with thousands of able knights and free folk (they will also - at Jon's command - rewrite the rules on celibacy and black cloaks...) Well, one can dream.

Like I said, it's my wishful thinking that the dragons and Nights Watchmen and soldiers equipped with dragon glass weapons will be able to destroy the Others completely so there is no need for 300 mile long wall to be manned for protection against them. I think I'm in the minority in that. I feel like Jon and some of the others will be wasting their talents remaining in the gulag for the rest of their lives just because Nights Watchmen don't have the option to leave voluntarily after taking their oath, on pain of death. Now, having said that - you could be right and the threat of an apocalypse will cause the nobles and knights to be clamoring to sign up or supply the Nights Watch in their noble war.

Still, I can't help thinking that after a year of two of civil war with fields laid waste (and no more time to plant and harvest before the Winter comes), burned and sacked castles, murdered and raped smallfolk, hostaged nobles, bands of marauding bandits and giant wolf packs, etc., the Lords and their knights will want to go home and salvage what they can. I think they would fight the Others if they had no other choice because it meant the difference between life and death for their own and the rest of the seven kingdoms, but that assumes they'll believe the reports of what everyone believed to be myth without seeing the evidence for themselves as a real and present danger down in the Reach and Dorne and the Westerlands, etc. The attitude of the King's council in KL is that Mance Rayder is doing them a favor by keeping Stannis busy and they actively want to assassinate the Lord Commander as a traitor for taking Stannis' aid. They don't get it, because they don't believe in it.

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My theorie to explain this is, that Ned knew that Lyanna liked Rhaegar and the possibility that she might be pregnant. Because of Roberts hatred for Targs he did not want anyone he did not trust 100% find out about it.

It's possible, but a woman doesn't have to like a man to become pregnant if they have sex, so this would be a possibility under both the rape scenario and the romance scenario.

or maybe he swaps positions with Dany, she becoming nights commander and he king.

Dany builds an army, lives her whole life being told she's the rightful heir, crosses the sea, and gives it up to someone she doesn't know and takes the Night's Watch? I don't think Jon would even want the throne. He didn't take Winterfell, and that has much more meaning to him than the Iron Throne.

Should Dany become fertile again, well, I dont the a suitor that fits the bill. Sure Quentyn Martell would fit, but oh the irony if Dany first agrees to him and then runs of with Jon, just like Rhaegar did run of with Lyanna.

The only thing that strikes me about Jon and Dany is the incest. I mean, incest does not work out well in the series so i dont know.

There is only a chance it would be incest, as it is still very possibly that Jon is, indeed, Ned's son.

Of course, it seems very cliche to have the charismatic young plot-centric male leader end up with the charismatic young plot-centric female leader. I'd rather it not happen, to be honest. I hope Jon keeps his vows.

It's not a certainty that it would be that cyclical. It just happened ONCE. There was ONE Long Night that we know of. Also, the Nightswatch and subsequently the Wall were built after the Long Night. The Last Hero/AA knew the last time they defeated the Others that they will come back. THis doesn't mean, it will happen that way again. If GRRM would be extremely cruel (he is capable of doing that), he could make the Others win and every human in Westeros is forced to flee back to Essos, the Islands (no idea if the Others have ships or the ability to get to the Islands).

Now, there are two possibilities, this time the Others will be defeated for ever, or they will be fought back, the Wall reestablished and the wait for the next Long Night will begin.

Both ends are equally possible. I personally think that this time the Others will be defeated for good. But I can be wrong.

But how would they know that the Others are destroyed for good? Maybe Bran the Builder thought that they had destroyed the Others, but built the Wall just in case they should ever rise again. Plus, if Melisandre is right and the "Great Other" is behind them, it's pretty damn hard to kill a god. It seems like a mighty big risk to abandon the Wall and disband the Night's Watch and leave the realms of men unguarded for all the nights to come.

Let alone the wildlings, giants, and other unsavory things beyond the Wall. The Night's Watch may not have fought the White Walkers (I like that name better than Others) in 8000 years, but they have kept plenty busy guarding the realm from other threats.

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What's the reasoning behind Ned not letting Catelyn in on this, should R+L=J be true?

Not trying to be a dick; I'm honestly curious. I feel like it was kind of assholish for old Mr. Stark to subject his nephew to his wife's bullshit, and this from someone who likes and appreciates Catelyn and who thinks her actions are understandable (though not entirely justified). Besides, there wasn't even a sure chance Catelyn would totally reject the boy (see: Rose from Fences). What if she treated him like Robb's twin? What would have happened then -- has it been established in the books what goes down if male twins are firstborn...?

Not that, of course, that would have worked. Folks probably knew by then that Robb was a singleton, but I'm just speculating.

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maybe he didn't expect her to be so mean, and by the time he realized, it was too late...

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