The R+L=J thread, part XII

[Niccolo Machiavelli]

It's possible, but a woman doesn't have to like a man to become pregnant if they have sex, so this would be a possibility under both the rape scenario and the romance scenario.

Dany builds an army, lives her whole life being told she's the rightful heir, crosses the sea, and gives it up to someone she doesn't know and takes the Night's Watch? I don't think Jon would even want the throne. He didn't take Winterfell, and that has much more meaning to him than the Iron Throne.

There is only a chance it would be incest, as it is still very possibly that Jon is, indeed, Ned's son.

For R+L=J to be true it doesnt matter if it was rape or romance, but everything we read about Lyanna suggests that she run of with Rhaegar.

Dany does not know about Jon. She does not know about the others. She grew up being indoctrinated by Viserys about how evil Robert is, thats their throne and so on.

In my opinion she does not care about the power of the Iron throne but she wants to be HOME and hates Robert.

I think she will reunite with Jon and sacrifice herself in the final battle against the others to free westeros of this danger.

As for Jon. He still is a Stark. He may be a true born son if Rhaegar married Lyanna. The reason for half of the Targs being madman is incest.

@Cathlyn: I think that lies in Ned being very strict with his honor and such things. Lyanna says "Ned promise me to tell _noone_ that he is my son. promise me ned." so he cant tell anyone.

[Asarlai]

has it been established in the books what goes down if male twins are firstborn

Cersei says that she was born a moment before Jaime, and that if she had been male, that "was all it would take" for her to be the heir.

[Dragonfish]

What's the reasoning behind Ned not letting Catelyn in on this, should R+L=J be true?

Ned probably doesn't want to tell anyone about R+L=J he doesn't have to. Including Cat.

[Queen of Everything]

Ned probably doesn't want to tell anyone about R+L=J he doesn't have to. Including Cat.

I love our dear old Ned, but I think actively lying to his wife goes against his whole honorable persona. Not that he's above being a hypocrite, I suppose.

I guess we have to wait for Howland Reed's input.

[Dragonfish]

I love our dear old Ned, but I think actively lying to his wife goes against his whole honorable persona.

If R+L=J is true, then Ned is lying to the world, including his King, which is treason. So it's not a stretch that he would lie to his wife as well. In for a penny in for a stag, I always say.

[Asarlai]

As for Jon. He still is a Stark. He may be a true born son if Rhaegar married Lyanna. The reason for half of the Targs being madman is incest.

Rhaegar was in a consummated, non-annulled marriage already. Nothing with Lyanna would be a true marriage. Plus, even if it happened, she could have been forced at sword-point. And if she wasn't, who's to say that?

I love our dear old Ned, but I think actively lying to his wife goes against his whole honorable persona. Not that he's above being a hypocrite, I suppose.

I guess we have to wait for Howland Reed's input.

I personally think the evidence points to Jon being Ned's son, but I'll answer this. If Lyanna did indeed ask him to promise to raise Jon as his own and not tell anyone (possibly barring Jon when he came of age), then Ned would be bound to keep his promise.

[Dragonfish]

Rhaegar was in a consummated, non-annulled marriage already. Nothing with Lyanna would be a true marriage.

We don't know that for sure. The Targaryens practiced polygamy in the past, so Rhaegar may have used that as a justification for getting married a second time.

[LadyMary]

What's the reasoning behind Ned not letting Catelyn in on this, should R+L=J be true?

Not trying to be a dick; I'm honestly curious. I feel like it was kind of assholish for old Mr. Stark to subject his nephew to his wife's bullshit, and this from someone who likes and appreciates Catelyn and who thinks her actions are understandable (though not entirely justified). Besides, there wasn't even a sure chance Catelyn would totally reject the boy (see: Rose from Fences). What if she treated him like Robb's twin? What would have happened then -- has it been established in the books what goes down if male twins are firstborn...?

Not that, of course, that would have worked. Folks probably knew by then that Robb was a singleton, but I'm just speculating.

Ned thought (paraphrasing here) that some secrets are too dangerous to tell even those you love and trust. Maybe he worried that Cat would let it slip in an unguarded moment. Maybe he was afraid she'd force him to send Jon away out of legitimate fear of the danger having Rhaegar's son around would mean for them. Keeping Rhaegar's son a secret from the King is potentially treason which doesn't just endanger Jon and Ned but potentially Catelyn and their children. If Ned promised Lyanna he would protect her son, letting anyone know the truth could mean that Jon wouldn't live to see his first birthday because someone would try to kidnap or murder him to curry favor with Robert.

So, it was a little assholish, but better to be assholish and have Jon bear Catelyn's enmity than jeopardize the whole Stark family with the truth.

[Songstress]

What's the reasoning behind Ned not letting Catelyn in on this, should R+L=J be true?

Don't forget that at the time, Ned and Catelyn didn't really know each other that well. She was betrothed to Brandon, and I'm sure there weren't a lot of family gatherings with the future in-laws for them to make small talk. They probably had barely spoken to one another before Brandon died and Ned ended up marrying Cat in his place... and from what Catelyn says in her POVs, they didn't have a whole lot of time together before Ned rode off to war and came back with Jon in tow.

If Ned had made a promise to Lyanna about keeping Jon's identity secret, the best way to ensure that he passes the boy off as his own bastard is if his wife treats him like his bastard - all the time, in front of every single person. And the best way to make sure Cat consistently shows the world that act is if Cat honestly believes it's the truth.

Once Ned knew and trusted Cat enough to where he might have been able to let her in on the secret, how would it have looked if she suddenly started treating him differently - which she probably would have, or what's the point of telling her?

[Jon Blackfyre]

Don't forget that at the time, Ned and Catelyn didn't really know each other that well. She was betrothed to Brandon, and I'm sure there weren't a lot of family gatherings with the future in-laws for them to make small talk. They probably had barely spoken to one another before Brandon died and Ned ended up marrying Cat in his place... and from what Catelyn says in her POVs, they didn't have a whole lot of time together before Ned rode off to war and came back with Jon in tow.

If Ned had made a promise to Lyanna about keeping Jon's identity secret, the best way to ensure that he passes the boy off as his own bastard is if his wife treats him like his bastard - all the time, in front of every single person. And the best way to make sure Cat consistently shows the world that act is if Cat honestly believes it's the truth.

Once Ned knew and trusted Cat enough to where he might have been able to let her in on the secret, how would it have looked if she suddenly started treating him differently - which she probably would have, or what's the point of telling her?

I agree, R+L=J bashers tend to bring up how Ned's honor wouldn't let him lie to Catelyn all those years and that is a reason the Jon must be his. To me that is just foolish talk using Ned's honor to one side of the argument while ignoring the other.

What is more honorbale, keeping the promise you made to your sister, who you love unconditionally and has been a part of your life for as long as you remember, on her death bed that was her last request in mortal life no less. Or telling the truth to the woman that is your wife because you were honor bond to marry her when your brother was murdered and you barely know.

Ned's honor made him marry Catelyn, and be a good and loving husband to her. His honor also makes him keep his promise to his dead sister. They are not mutually exclusive, you can have both. Like Songstress says, if years down the line Ned finally trusted Catelyn enough to tell her the truth then it would have change a lot, like her trust in him, her treatment of Jon, and his keeping of the promise for years to Lyanna.

He made a promise, and not one to bury his sister where all family members are buried, and he kept it, until the day he died.

[LadyMary]

I agree, R+L=J bashers tend to bring up how Ned's honor wouldn't let him lie to Catelyn all those years and that is a reason the Jon must be his. To me that is just foolish talk using Ned's honor to one side of the argument while ignoring the other.

What is more honorbale, keeping the promise you made to your sister, who you love unconditionally and has been a part of your life for as long as you remember, on her death bed that was her last request in mortal life no less. Or telling the truth to the woman that is your wife because you were honor bond to marry her when your brother was murdered and you barely know.

Ned's honor made him marry Catelyn, and be a good and loving husband to her. His honor also makes him keep his promise to his dead sister. They are not mutually exclusive, you can have both. Like Songstress says, if years down the line Ned finally trusted Catelyn enough to tell her the truth then it would have change a lot, like her trust in him, her treatment of Jon, and his keeping of the promise for years to Lyanna.

He made a promise, and not one to bury his sister where all family members are buried, and he kept it, until the day he died.

Right, the lies Ned told were in order to keep his promise to his sister. He reasons that sometimes the lie can be honorable, when he's speaking with Arya about the lie to save Nymeria's life.

[Elfangle]

Right, the lies Ned told were in order to keep his promise to his sister. He reasons that sometimes the lie can be honorable, when he's speaking with Arya about the lie to save Nymeria's life.

Totally forgot about that. Could be important and shows that even honorable Ned isn't scared to lie if circumstances left him no other choice.

[Luin]

What's the reasoning behind Ned not letting Catelyn in on this, should R+L=J be true?

Not trying to be a dick; I'm honestly curious. I feel like it was kind of assholish for old Mr. Stark to subject his nephew to his wife's bullshit, and this from someone who likes and appreciates Catelyn and who thinks her actions are understandable (though not entirely justified). Besides, there wasn't even a sure chance Catelyn would totally reject the boy (see: Rose from Fences). What if she treated him like Robb's twin? What would have happened then -- has it been established in the books what goes down if male twins are firstborn...?

Not that, of course, that would have worked. Folks probably knew by then that Robb was a singleton, but I'm just speculating.

Bringing home a bastard is a very serious slight against the lady of the house. Not only does it flaunt the husband's adultery it forces the women to be reminded of it every day all the while she knows if she commits adultery she dies. A bastard is also a very serious threat against legitimate children because he could be legitimized, for example Robb grants legitimacy to Jon, and so does Stannis (showing a king has the right). Furthermore it is very strongly contradictory to Westeros Honor Codes that allow fathers to care for their bastards but usually from a distance. It would be a dead give away that something is wrong with the story Ned gives about Jon if Cat treated him nicely. His promise to Lyanna meant he had to keep Jon alive, even if not completely happy.

[AHackeySackOfIceAndFire]

Bringing home a bastard is a very serious slight against the lady of the house. Not only does it flaunt the husband's adultery it forces the women to be reminded of it every day all the while she knows if she commits adultery she dies. A bastard is also a very serious threat against legitimate children because he could be legitimized, for example Robb grants legitimacy to Jon, and so does Stannis (showing a king has the right). Furthermore it is very strongly contradictory to Westeros Honor Codes that allow fathers to care for their bastards but usually from a distance. It would be a dead give away that something is wrong with the story Ned gives about Jon if Cat treated him nicely. His promise to Lyanna meant he had to keep Jon alive, even if not completely happy.

This seems weak. The argument being made seems to be that Ned didn't tell Catelyn because she would have treated Jon nicer, and that would be so weird that people would notice and then realize the Jon is actually a Targaryen prince. That is the implication here.

Ned didn't tell Catelyn, because Ned didn't tell anyone. Whoever he told, that would be the person who would betray him. He could have told Maester Luwin, or Robb, or a handful of other trusted people, but he didn't, because he didn't tell anyone, because that would increase the risk of discovery.

There are a number of things Ned could have done to ease the burden on his family. He could have fostered Jon at White Harbor or Greywater Watch or the Eyrie, for example. Ned did not choose that path. And we can certainly criticize him for not being more shrewd in his family arrangements.

It is foolish, however, imho, to suggest that there ought to have been some ulterior motive to keeping Jon's parentage a secret from Catelyn (other than the primary motive, that being keeping Jon's parentage a secret from everyone). You know what's safer than telling Cat? NOT telling Cat.

[starki]

Aside of the too-good-to-be-true factor, doesn't this theory effectively destroy Daenerys' claim to the throne, ie older male heir ? And if no one else, why did Ned not share this with Jon ?

[ENikolai]

The most recent episode of the tv-series, "The Pointy End", was written by GRRM himself. In it, he makes it 100% clear that Jon is not resistant to fire/heat. This means that even if he is the son of Rhaegar, he - like Viserys - is no dragon.

I'm referring to the scene where he is burned (and in pain) by briefly touching the lantern that he throws at the wight. Do any of you know if he was burned by it in the book as well?

[zmflavius]

The most recent episode of the tv-series, "The Pointy End", was written by GRRM himself. In it, he makes it 100% clear that Jon is not resistant to fire/heat. This means that even if he is the son of Rhaegar, he - like Viserys - is no dragon.

I'm referring to the scene where he is burned (and in pain) by briefly touching the lantern that he throws at the wight. Do any of you know if he was burned by it in the book as well?

He was, and there was a minor point about how he had a burned hand.

[ENikolai]

He was, and there was a minor point about how he had a burned hand.

Ok, thanks, no big revelation then. Sorry, it's been a few years since I've read it.

[LadyMary]

The most recent episode of the tv-series, "The Pointy End", was written by GRRM himself. In it, he makes it 100% clear that Jon is not resistant to fire/heat. This means that even if he is the son of Rhaegar, he - like Viserys - is no dragon.

I'm referring to the scene where he is burned (and in pain) by briefly touching the lantern that he throws at the wight. Do any of you know if he was burned by it in the book as well?

Yes, but this is somewhat different than how it happened in the books. In the book as I recall, Jon threw burning drapes (caught on fire by the broken lantern) at the wight, so it was real flame not just hot glass. IIRC, when Dany touched the eggs they felt warm to her touch but cold stone to everyone else. I don't remember a scene int he books where her servant was burned by the heated eggs and Dany was not. According to GRRM, Dany's "unburnt" status after walking into Drogo's funeral pyre for her hatchlings was a singular event. I think this is setting up in the tv show that Dany is different than even other Targs - truly the Prince(ss) That Was Promised. Otherwise, Targaryens are not immune to heat and fire as pure-blooded Viserys proves. There's no evidence that Rhaegar or Aerys or any of the other pure Targs were any more immune than Viserys. So, it stands to follow that part-Targaryens like Jon would be no more immune to heat and fire.

[Popgun]

It amazes me how attached to R+L=J theory some people are. Twisting vague references this way and that. The t.v series is just as "canon" as the books.

Walking into a boiling hot bath and later holding the dragon eggs at least show Dany has a strong resistance to heat and fire. Jon was instantly in pain when he grabbed the lantern (as he was when he took the burning curtain in the book). His hand is permanently scarred from the fire afterwards.

So if you believe R+L=J then it makes it pretty difficult because Jon obviously isn't a true dragon like Dany is. Claiming he is one of the 3 dragons out of the prophecy is even more of a stretch. Personally I've always thought the 3 dragon thing out of the prophecy was simply a reference to 3 dragons being born again, as in Dany's actual 3 dragons.

It's why TOJ will never be in the t.v series. GRRM and HBO don't want viewers getting confused like a lot of readers have.

Ned is obviously the father although it does still remain debatable who the mother is.