[Book Spoilers] EP108 Discussion

[NW Deserter]

2) Tyrion's Tysha story. IMO they'll have to have it at some point, it's too important to leave out. Next episode seems unlikely, so it will probably be in episode 10. Although they could always bump it to next season without anything really being hurt.

I could see him telling the story to Shae next episode (I'm assuming we'll meet her then).

[Isabella Stark]

Great episode!

- Bronn was especially awesome.

- Robb, also awesome. I totally got the 'let the scout go' scheme.

- Also, noticed Littlefinger's reactions in the final scene. He does not appear to be in on the "have Sansa seek mercy for her father' scheme.

- Syrio's scene alone was worth my cable bill this month.

2 complaints:

- Jon fighting the wight was better in my mind's eye when reading about it.

- The dialogue when Tywin meets the hill tribes was way better in the book than here. However, Bronn was better here ("you wouldn't know him")

[Lord Godric]

We got a LOT more direwolf action this time, finally.

Direwolves! I loved seeing them. We got both Ghost and Grey Wind. Now if only we had seen Summer.

Oh, and when Rickon walked into Bran's room I was thinking "WTF is this kid?!" And then I realized it had to be Rickon. Whoops. That is what happens when he goes missing for many moons and then suddenly reappears.

[Lord Godric]

- Also, noticed Littlefinger's reactions in the final scene. He does not appear to be in on the "have Sansa seek mercy for her father' scheme.

I definitely took note of how very sympathetic Littlefinger seemed to be toward Sansa which is very out of character for him. Remember it was just a few weeks ago that he talked about just murdering Dany. It was a nice touch to show that he cares for Sansa in some way. Some creepy way, but still.

[Greywolf2375]

opening scene with Syrio & Arya was pretty much perfect, loved how they ended it especially with the screams in the background

[axels15]

I didn't read the whole thread yet, but I'm surprised not too many people mentioned the interactions between Bronn and Tyrion. I thought they were STELLAR.

Especially the line about Bronn's father, I cracked up

[zippypoodle]

So, Robb has 18,000 against Tywin's 60,000? Is that how it was in the books? I didn't realize the odds were quite that bad. So how is it that Robb is able to defeat Jaime's superior force? Is it the fact that Jaime's forces are split, or the element of surprise, or just superior tactics? Anyone with a better memory than me?

Jaime's force was divided (into 3 I think) because of the difficulties of besieging Riverrun given its location. He was essentially able to defeat 1/3 at a time, plus the people in the castle lead a sortie when they realized help had arrived, taking some of the army in the rear. Plus, Tywin has 60,000 total including what he gave Jaime, not 60,000 plus what he gave Jaime.

[Anomandaris86]

Okay, yeah the army being split into three to besiege Riverrun makes sense. Can't really defend that well. Does it say how many men Jaime had for the Battle of the Whispering Wood?

[Steel_Wind]

I could see him telling the story to Shae next episode (I'm assuming we'll meet her then).

Tyrion recounts the tale to Shae before the Battle of the Blackwater. And hates himself almost immediately for telling her, too. Fool!

We won't be hearing of Tysha until approximately Ep 7 of season 2.

I would point out that we have not seen Sansa's treachery of her going to the Queen at all. At this stage, while it is possible we may hear of it next episode, (context: Ned's letter to Stannis never made it because the Lannisters knew the ship was leaving because of Sansa) and it is entirely possible it has been written out entirely.

I was very annoyed when they retconned Sansa's treachery out in Episode 7. Most of you said we'll hear about it later, from Cersei.

Well... maybe. But the clock is ticking. We'll see.

[Steel_Wind]

I'm also liking Theon way too much. His eagerness to support Robb in the show is just morbidly depressing.

I have some sympathy for "book Theon" and always have. That's not a popular opinion around here, but Theon did not want to attack the Starks. Robb was his brother and Winterfell was the home he always wanted to live in. He did not deal harshly with the smallfolk of Winterfell, either. That was Ramsay's work, not Theon's. Theon would never have burned Winerfell -- and as Jon correctly believed when first confronted with the news, Theon would never have killed Bran or Rickon, either. It made no sense.

Theon is a tragic character, not a villain.

George isn't done with Theon yet. If George can almost erase Jaime's Lannister's sins with the loss of a hand, he may yet be able to redeem Theon with the loss of a few fingers and toes in ADwD. Here's to hoping.

[Basileus777]

I would point out that we have not seen Sansa's treachery of her going to the Queen at all. At this stage, while it is possible we may hear of it next episode, (context: Ned's letter to Stannis never made it because the Lannisters knew the ship was leaving because of Sansa) and it is entirely possible it has been written out entirely.

I was very annoyed when they retconned Sansa's treachery out in Episode 7. Most of you said we'll hear about it later, from Cersei.

Well... maybe. But the clock is ticking. We'll see.

I'm almost completely certain they wrote Sansa's betrayal out. I think it might be a good thing though. Sansa was already coming off as completely unsympathetic on the show, having her betray Ned would completely turn the audience against her.

I think they'll have Ned's letter reach Stannis. It's an excellent way to explain how Stannis learns about the incest.

[MountainThatRides]

Okay, yeah the army being split into three to besiege Riverrun makes sense. Can't really defend that well. Does it say how many men Jaime had for the Battle of the Whispering Wood?

If I recall correctly, Jaime didn't have very much of an army at all during the Whispering Wood. He was out on patrol with his knights and freeriders -- a large chunk of his mounted forces. Robb had a similar force, made up entirely of mounted men. As for the numbers, I'd say chances are good that Robb had that advantage, not to mention the element of surprise (which can never be underestimated in battle).

After that victory, however, most of the important people in the Kingslayer's host -- including Jaime himself -- were either killed or captured. Basically, Robb lopped the head off the snake, and then broke the siege with the help of a sortie from Riverrun. It's clear that at least some of the besieging army was routed, as the fighting continued more or less perpetually until Robb's host broke westward to the Battle of the Camps.

[Bronn Stone]

I'm almost completely certain they wrote Sansa's betrayal out. I think it might be a good thing though. Sansa was already coming off as completely unsympathetic on the show, having her betray Ned would completely turn the audience against her.

I think they'll have Ned's letter reach Stannis. It's an excellent way to explain how Stannis learns about the incest.

The version in the books makes much more sense. Stannis already knows but doesn't think Robert will believe him. So he sets off Jon Arryn's investigation. Plus, I think Ned's missive is inside that chest that is pointed shown as being unopened.

[Isabella Stark]

Tyrion recounts the tale to Shae before the Battle of the Blackwater. And hates himself almost immediately for telling her, too. Fool!

Tyrion's the only character for whom sexposition makes sense and is in character and wouldn't be totally annoying. But by the time it happens. the audience will have seen it a half a dozen times and will be totally sick of it.

[Basileus777]

The version in the books makes much more sense. Stannis already knows but doesn't think Robert will believe him. So he sets off Jon Arryn's investigation. Plus, I think Ned's missive is inside that chest that is pointed shown as being unopened.

The version in the book made sense because we knew that Stannis was investigating it with Jon Arryn. That hasn't been introduced in the show, so it would feel entirely random if he just somehow knew all along and hid somewhere while the Lannisters committed treason and killed his brother. They can have a scene with him talking about Ned's letter rather then have unnecessary exposition about how he was really working with Jon Arryn the whole time and we just never knew about it.

[Steel_Wind]

Tyrion's the only character for whom sexposition makes sense and is in character and wouldn't be totally annoying. But by the time it happens. the audience will have seen it a half a dozen times and will be totally sick of it.

It's not sexposition in the book. As I recall the scene in ACoK, he tells it to Shae outside on a patio in the walled garden of her villa in KL. Varys shows up shortly afterwards with some news, a plan is put into place to make Shae one of Lady Tanda's maids so she can at least be safe within the Red Keep if the Battle goes all to hell and Varys and Tyrion return to the Red Keep.

They'll probably keep the scene in its entirety, I expect.

[Zoren]

So, Robb has 18,000 against Tywin's 60,000? Is that how it was in the books? I didn't realize the odds were quite that bad. So how is it that Robb is able to defeat Jaime's superior force? Is it the fact that Jaime's forces are split, or the element of surprise, or just superior tactics? Anyone with a better memory than me?

They doubled the numbers of the Lannisters' for the TV Show.

In the books, the Lannister army was 30000 men. 15000 went with Jaime, 15000 went with Tywin (plus 5000 of Tyrion's savages). Robb had 5000 men with him during the Whispering Wood, the rest of his army went to battle Tywin at the Green Fork.

[Lord Godric]

I'm almost completely certain they wrote Sansa's betrayal out. I think it might be a good thing though. Sansa was already coming off as completely unsympathetic on the show, having her betray Ned would completely turn the audience against her.

Well Sansa is never supposed to be liked, not even in the books. I think her betrayal is a crucial part in showing how stupid and naive she was to run to Cersei. And I am disappointed they took that out. I think this episode portrayed Sansa as very sympathetic and that is not who Sansa is supposed to be. At least not yet. It is not until Joffrey's betrayal that Sansa is portrayed in a different, more sympathetic light.

[Steel_Wind]

So, Robb has 18,000 against Tywin's 60,000? Is that how it was in the books? I didn't realize the odds were quite that bad. So how is it that Robb is able to defeat Jaime's superior force? Is it the fact that Jaime's forces are split, or the element of surprise, or just superior tactics? Anyone with a better memory than me?

Jaime's forces are split due to the geography of Riverrun. And yes, Robb's tactics are superior.

For all that, Robb picks up a few thousand Freys at the Crossing, most of which are archers and a few hundred mounted warriors + several dozen knights. And there are another 8,000 soldiers or so at Riverrun.

Robb does most of his work in the West with 8,000 mounted men. The odds are bad for Robb Stark. In the end, he only fails because he didn't better explain his battle plan to Edmure. (Robb Stark could possibly have survived that foolishness with Jeyne Westerling if Stannis won at the Blackwater. But not if Stannis lost the battle.)

[pleonasm]

Best episode since the pilot IMHO. Even the tent camps looked far more impressive that last weeks. Scale is always going to be a challenge for this series, but I think they did a pretty smash up job this episode.

Anyone wish they had a differnt Director of Photography? The scenes on the wall aren't bad, but the rest of it looks so 'soap-opera' like. I know HBO can do better. I wonder if they went more hand held and natural light if would feel more authentic and less set-like?