[Book Spoilers] EP108 Discussion

[Zoren]

Well Sansa is never supposed to be liked, not even in the books. I think her betrayal is a crucial part in showing how stupid and naive she was to run to Cersei. And I am disappointed they took that out. I think this episode portrayed Sansa as very sympathetic and that is not who Sansa is supposed to be. At least not yet. It is not until Joffrey's betrayal that Sansa is portrayed in a different, more sympathetic light.

I think that the reason as to why Sansa, Catelyn and Cersei come off as more sympathetic than their book counterparts is because the producers felt that it would be a very bad idea from a marketing point of view to only have one female character who's not entirely unlikeable (Arya).

Heck...a feminist friend of mine (who hasn't read the books yet) even told me that she felt identified with Cersei.

[Lord Godric]

I think that the reason as to why Sansa, Catelyn and Cersei come off as more sympathetic than their book counterparts is because the producers felt that it would be a very bad idea from a marketing point of view to only have one female character who's not entirely unlikeable (Arya).

Heck...a feminist friend of mine (who hasn't read the books yet) even told me that she felt identified with Cersei.

Gods, that is a scary thought.

Although, if that is the reasoning of the producers I think they have certainly done a disservice to the story. Especially if Cersei whole tale about actually losing a child is true.

[Asarlai]

I think that the reason as to why Sansa, Catelyn and Cersei come off as more sympathetic than their book counterparts is because the producers felt that it would be a very bad idea from a marketing point of view to only have one female character who's not entirely unlikeable (Arya).

Lots of people like Dany, and a good deal like Catelyn, too. Cersei is "the villain," so I don't think they worry about wanting people to like her.

[Wolfheart]

Direwolves! I loved seeing them. We got both Ghost and Grey Wind. Now if only we had seen Summer.

Oh, and when Rickon walked into Bran's room I was thinking "WTF is this kid?!" And then I realized it had to be Rickon. Whoops. That is what happens when he goes missing for many moons and then suddenly reappears.

Might have helped the Stark child connection right away if a Shaggydog was padding along with Rickon. ANd its odd. Summer has been a good boy in most episodes on Brans bed or near it. Not this time. Funny.

[Abaddon]

Well, after an avalanche of overwhelming positivity... I feel a little underwhelmed. It felt rushed and disjointed to me, overall. Some great high notes but very jumbled.

I'll give it a mulligan and watch it again soon, maybe I'm just bummed because the Mavs lost.

[howland_reed]

I have to give props to Sophie Turner again -- that scene with the queen was awesome. "I won't hatch anything!" :lol:

Loved Cersei's subtle "gulp" after Sansa made this plea:

"No, I'm not! I'll be a good wife to him, you'll see. I'll be a queen just like you, I promise! I won't hatch anything!"

[Asarlai]

I'll be a queen just like you

"Well, I can't have you fucking your brother and murdering my son, so goodbye."

[iheartseverus]

Loved Cersei's subtle "gulp" after Sansa made this plea:

"No, I'm not! I'll be a good wife to him, you'll see. I'll be a queen just like you, I promise! I won't hatch anything!"

Best line of the episode. Its like a double-triple entendre. Innocent Sansa saying she won't hatch anything, it just means what it means. But, 'I'll be a queen just like you--I won't hatch anything. This, to the queen of hatchery! Plus, there's Cersei's actual hatchlings, three twincest spawn. Masterful, George. Masterful.

[Rockroi]

So, big night, with lots of moments we had been waiting for, but none bigger than:

Syrio Forel : All Around Bad Ass- I was never high on the roll nor the actor who played him, but SF had ONE huge scene where you either bought him or not. And he nailed it. I never doubted for a second that six fully armed guys would get their asses kicked by an old dude with a wooden sword, but he sold it. My only issue was Trant who I thought would be more stoic, not angry, I never doubted for a moment everything they sold in that scene. Arya was perfect, Syrio was perfect; the fight was great.

And yeah, while Syrio’s end is still left kinda sorta undefined, I am even MORE convinced he’s dead. That scene spelled out just how doomed he was; did Trant LOOK like he was laying around? Or that he would let him live> I just hope Welcome Back Kotter’s Juan Epstein can get work again.

Khal Drogo, Finally: I liked the seemingly superfluous Khal Drago fight scene. Yes, I wish his wound would have been more true to the book (as well as the whole reason for the battle: I did not enjoy the indication that the battle was fought for the race for the Iron Throne). But watching Drogo make his claim for bad ass was great. And nice use of a prosthetic tongue.

Ultimately, I loved most every aspect of that scene, because with the exception of the items mentioned above, it was true to the book and I thought it all worked out.

The Weight of (the Game of) Thrones: The best aspect of this episode was watching the immeasurable weight that fell on the shoulders of Sansa Stark. I thought the episode nailed describing how helpless she was in the jaws of these lions (placed there, by the way, by her loving father). (AND NOTE: I L-O-V-E-D that the show did away with the foolishness that Sansa had anything to do with her father’s demise: Ned had those bases covered already). The actress playing Sansa exuded the peril of her situation. The show detailed the force- all subtle –pressed onto her by Cersei, Varys, etc.

The last scene was truly special: from Barristan walking out to Sansa kneeling, there was no question that these people had this all spelled out and were contorting poor Sansa and the love she had for her father against her. And the fact that Sansa, logically, saw her roll as that of savior for her father was understandable and honest. A great set of scenes culminating in a really good shot of Sansa sinking under the weight of the Throne itself.

Robb Stark: Development of a Warrior: I loved how Robb developed in this episode and how he grew into his roll. He is not sure, certain or positive, but he acts like a man who is confident that he is giving his family the best chance of survival against the forces of evil Lannister. I thought the scenes with Greatjon and Cat all went very well. I also liked how he is afraid but determined. In other words, I thought he was Robb Stark before he went stupid.

The Meh:

Tywin Lannister: My favorite bad guy seemed a bit too enthused at Robb’s moves: did he forget where he was? He just seems too excited for a man who is supposed to be stoic and stern. Also, I am PISSED that they did not keep the original dialog with Shagga: Tywin uses deft subtlety to have the tribes fight with him. Tyrion says as much. Instead, a very heavy-handed interaction: one we would expect from an average sci-fi fantasy story, not Martin’s AGoT.

The Disappearance of Arya Stark: I know why they did what they did, but I thought the scene was rushed. I thought it was sloppy, confusing and unremarkable. The scene I am talking about is when the stable boy (dressed like the genie from Aladdin) discovers Arya. That scene is TERRIFYING in the books and then grotesque as Arya kills a boy. It’s a very important scene in Ary’s development. In the show? Its so fast (the voice-over so bad), the camera cutting so confused that it has NO emotional impact AT ALL. Now, I know why they did this: they do not want to dwell on the killing of a 12 year-old boy. I got that. But I thought the scene was a letdown.

The Minimization of Bran Stark: The one scene I missed was the one in the books where Robb unburdens himself to Bran. In the book its touching and very telling about the pressure Robb was under and how he needed Bran. In the book its as close to a brother-to-brother relationship as we get. Instead: we get a rushed scene with all the cliche's about how the younger brother wants to go with the older brother. And then a rushed explanation with the LAMEST excuse ever- that Robb has to move his army out at night? Robb- you’re moving 18,000 men: how subtle do you think you can be, buddy?

The salvage operation is that apparently the Starks let Rickon out of his cell to be kind a creepy and downtrodden. And seeming as old as Bran. I thought this was the LEAST they could do. Otherwise, a really disappointing scene that could have been wonderful.

And it leads me to this complaint: you don’t have time for a really solid emotional scene between the brothers… but you DO have time for us to see Hodor’s cock. Really?

Jon Snow and the Emo That Never Ends: He’s just not improving. Sam is; Jon is not.

Overall, a solid but unspectacular episode that I liked but know will sort of morph into the background when I get the DVDs.

[Ambitus]

So do you think Hodor's "giantness" was a recruiting requirement? Would that even be legal?

"Alright you seem a great fit for the part, just one more thing..." as he pulls out a ruler.

[Bronn Stone]

The version in the book made sense because we knew that Stannis was investigating it with Jon Arryn. That hasn't been introduced in the show, so it would feel entirely random if he just somehow knew all along and hid somewhere while the Lannisters committed treason and killed his brother. They can have a scene with him talking about Ned's letter rather then have unnecessary exposition about how he was really working with Jon Arryn the whole time and we just never knew about it.

Then why is he hiding?

[Wolfheart]

Dany isn't showing much signs in the belly at all of Pregnancy. I call a HUGE foul on David, Dan and Gemma for not giving her a prosthetic pregnant belly or whatever they need and cover it up with fabric. Are we truly to believe she goes on this far in a span of time with such a small belly and miscarries?

[Lord Godric]

So do you think Hodor's "giantness" was a recruiting requirement? Would that even be legal?

"Alright you seem a great fit for the part, just one more thing..." as he pulls out a ruler.

If he wasn't...uh..giant enough, I am sure they could have faked it.

But, I also didn't think that scene was necessary (even though it was in the books) and just found myself wondering "they couldn't have actually filmed that in front of Isaac."

[Carldog]

Let's hear it for Drogo's finishing move! Take note Mortal Kombat.!

[Ambitus]

But, I also didn't think that scene was necessary (even though it was in the books) and just found myself wondering "they couldn't have actually filmed that in front of Isaac."

Of course it was important, without it there wouldn't have been any nudity this episode!

Honestly though after Ros I'm a bit numb to that whole thing, I was just glad I didn't have to strain to here the sexposition over moaning. I'd rather see Hodor's Giant than Ros... and I realized how weird that is now that I've typed it.

[Carldog]

Hodor shouldn't be HANGING around like that, the scene was to BIG for him to be FLOPPING around in. And in the cold of the North even!

[Arbor Gold]

One little detail from this ep that I loved, loved, loved was the scene between Ned and Varys, when Ned says something to the effect of "well then you might as well just slit my throat now" and Varys replies, "Not today." Nice echo of what Syrio teaches Arya at the start of the episode, and shows a snippet of possible connection between Varys' and Syrio's background.

Wish Sansa would have mentioned the possibility of Ned taking the Black as a form of mercy, but I suppose they can fill that in next week.

Overall, awesome.

[Spring Bass]

I just finished watching it on HBO GO. I loved it, and particularly the first half. It's almost a pity it's going to be heavily over-shadowed by the next episode, "Baelor".

1. The first seven minutes of this episode were absolutely intense. Syrio's stand, Sansa's flight and capture by the Hound, the death of Ned's men - it all flowed together so seamlessly. I was sitting on the edge of my chair the whole time.

2. Show-Tyrion continues to be amazing, whether it's with Bronn, Tywin, or the Hill Clans. They were obviously setting him up for a battle next episode. I noticed that we didn't get discussion of Tysha. I don't think they'll drop it entirely (it's too important to Tyrion's mindset), but maybe they'll have it revealed later on.

3. No Jaime this episode, which will almost certainly be made up of a lot of Jaime next episode. I strongly suspect we'll see his attempted attack on Robb directly, along with his defeat and capture.

4. Now there's the Tully family relations I was looking for! Good dialogue between Cat and Lysa, and between Cat and Robb. I noticed that we haven't seen the Blackfish, which makes me wonder if he's been altogether cut. That's somewhat of a pity when you consider his great scene with Jaime in AFFC, but not a surprising one.

5. I liked most, but not all, of the sequence with Jon and the Wight. The part that I didn't like what Sam's speech while they're burning it. I think it would have been much better to have Ser Alliser report that they've cut up the other (or better yet, see him in action), and end the episode with him being ordered to go south with the severed hand. Something to remind us that he's not just a one-note asshole (like how they had him tell Jon and Sam about how he got stuck in the mountains with other men and turned to cannibalism earlier on in the season).

6. Aside from Hodor :stillsick:, there were no nudity or overt sex scenes in this episode. Even the implied rapes with the Dothraki sacking of the Lhazareen village did not show anyone nude.

7. Ned's rapport with Varys continues to be great. I liked Varys in the novels, and I'm liking him even more in the television series. I think that the remaining parts of his dialogue with Ned will be shown in "Baelor", so that they can conclude the episode with Ned's beheading (likely in the same proximity as Jaime's capture).

8. I like this Osha now. I wasn't entirely pleased with their choice when she first appeared, but she seemed pretty good this episode. The dialogue she had with Bran was concise and enlightening.

9. Poor Sansa. It was almost painful to watch her scenes, knowing how Joff is going to hurt her both at Ned's beheading, and for most of the next season or two.

[Trebla]

So do you think Hodor's "giantness" was a recruiting requirement? Would that even be legal?

"Alright you seem a great fit for the part, just one more thing..." as he pulls out a ruler.

Or it was a prosthetic ala Dirk Diggler in Boogie Nights.

[Jambo]

Dany isn't showing much signs in the belly at all of Pregnancy. I call a HUGE foul on David, Dan and Gemma for not giving her a prosthetic pregnant belly or whatever they need and cover it up with fabric. Are we truly to believe she goes on this far in a span of time with such a small belly and miscarries?

Agreed, that seems like it would have been a pretty easy thing to put in the show - weird that it was overlooked.