[BOOK SPOILER] About Robb....

[Parev]

The RW is something that I'm still smarting over. To give it the same kind of flavor in the show that it has in the books, it has be completely gratuitous. GRRM really rubbed the reader's nose in it. So we should have something like Robb's head coming off, and a bunch of men pointing and laughing as he bleeds out. We should also see Cat's body roughly handled, as was indicated in the book. And all the Freys enjoying it immensely and having a drink over their dead bodies and talking about maybe going out whoring later.

It's terrible I know, but I felt a real pit in my gut over it. Especially over how ignominious is was. I hope they are true to that.

I have a sneaking suspicion that no matter how well they do the show, it will never have the emotional impact that the book section had.

[spitsphyre]

The problem with gratuitous violence in film is that at some point your brain shuts off and you can't be horrified by it anymore, it's either a joke or you ignore it. (Why the gore-porn subgenre of horror is FINALLY going into hiding again) I hope they don't get too gratuitous. :/

I have a sneaking suspicion that no matter how well they do the show, it will never have the emotional impact that the book section had.

I agree but probably for different reasons.

[Talleyrand]

I was wondering how the show is going to make us care for the characters beside Robb and Cat. When reading the book i genuinely felt sad about the Smalljon and Dacey. But unless they introduce the smalljon or Dacey in the next few episodes as part of Robb's guard. Hope they keep in the Smalljon pummelling a frey with a leg of meat though

[Mike]

-Sends Theon to Balon

-Leaves the North completely undefended

-Marriage

-Is stuck in the westerlands when the climatic battle of Blackwater takes place. A battle that loses him the war, whether he realizes it or not.

-Failure to make sure his commanders were on the same page as him("Hold Riverrun"). Would it have killed him to tell edmure that he should NOT engage Tywin?

-Fails to see the Tyrells as a good alliance and doesn't take advantage of their split with Renly and Stannis(the Lannisters with the aid of Little Finger do take advantage).

-Almost gets KILLED by Jaime Lannister in the Battle of the Whispering Wood. This is not usually sited as a mistake by him, but he was LUCKY that Jaime Lannister sword got stuck or he would have died right then and there.

He made a LOT of mistakes.

Huge mistake in retrospect although I don't think it would have mattered to Balon Greyjoy. He had already called his longships in, and (judging by appearances) would have went ahead with his conquest of the north. The funny thing is, if he had any sense he would have realized that joining the northmen would have been the Iron Islands best chance at autonomy.

No. I guess Ser Rodrik and the two thousand men he had didn't exist. Or the six hundred that Bolton had. Or the men of Deepwood Motte and Benfred Tallhart's stupid rabbit squad. The north had enough to defend itself. Theon just outsmarted them. If Theon doesn't do what he did, then Ser Rodrik's force could have fallen on Moat Cailin from the northern side, and maybe taken it back. Or they at least could have defended the coast and taken the fortress back that Asha Greyjoy took until Robb came back north and then hit Moat Cailin from the north as Robb attacked from the south.

Huge mistake. Absolutely huge.

No mistake. Tywin had too many men for him to fight, and if he marches for King's Landing at any point, he's going to have to account for Tywin's army before he gets there. Attacking the West and trying to draw Tywin far away from King's Landing was a great plan. Until...

Yeah, huge fuck up. This is the one place where I wonder if Martin didn't just make a mistake. Yeah, Robb is still a little green as a battle commander but why wouldn't he just divulge his plan? It doesn't make any sense. And if he just didn't think about it then why didn't the Blackfish (a seasoned military man) remind him? Or The Greatjon? Or Rickard Karstark? Or any of the other battlefield veterans in his squad?

Mistake. Or lost opportunity. Either way it amounts to the same thing. He should have given Catelyn and her party (with Lame Lothar and as many other quick witted dealers he had at his command) carte blanche to make marriage alliances for his family and his bannermen's sons. Of course, Renly was alive and young and at the head of the biggest army in Westeros at the time, so why would he think that, but still, there was a missed opportunity there for Catelyn to seize. Of course, it would probably mean Brienne's death.

No mistake. He had thirty sworn swords around him. Jaime rallied his men and tried to cut his way to Robb before he was killed or taken captive. He killed several of Robb's bodyguards before they subdued him, but that is battle. Robb didn't get touched because his sworn swords did their job and died for their liege lord.

You forgot to mention the whole King in the North thing. That was a pretty big mistake. Of course, all of his bannermen are just as guilty of not seeing the problems with this.

As for show Robb, yeah, Richard Madden is doing an awesome job. Like Ned, he is much more badass than his book counterpart, but I suppose he has to be since he'll be carrying the viewer's hopes for the Starks before the Red Wedding. I wonder if we'll see viewership drop significantly the next week (only to rise the week after).

[Nihilist]

Huge mistake in retrospect although I don't think it would have mattered to Balon Greyjoy. He had already called his longships in, and (judging by appearances) would have went ahead with his conquest of the north. The funny thing is, if he had any sense he would have realized that joining the northmen would have been the Iron Islands best chance at autonomy.

Ya and Dorne and the Reach would make good allies. But it ain't gonna happen because they hate eachother. Just like The Greyjoys hate the Starks(specifically Balon).

No. I guess Ser Rodrik and the two thousand men he had didn't exist. Or the six hundred that Bolton had. Or the men of Deepwood Motte and Benfred Tallhart's stupid rabbit squad. The north had enough to defend itself. Theon just outsmarted them. If Theon doesn't do what he did, then Ser Rodrik's force could have fallen on Moat Cailin from the northern side, and maybe taken it back. Or they at least could have defended the coast and taken the fortress back that Asha Greyjoy took until Robb came back north and then hit Moat Cailin from the north as Robb attacked from the south.

Is that why they lost Winterfel, a keep, and Moat Cailin? Ya they did a BANG UP job of defending the North.

No mistake. Tywin had too many men for him to fight, and if he marches for King's Landing at any point, he's going to have to account for Tywin's army before he gets there. Attacking the West and trying to draw Tywin far away from King's Landing was a great plan. Until...

How does him not telling Edmure part of the plan and getting stuck in an area completely unrelated to the battle that will decide everything not a mistake? A clever plan is only clever if it works. His didn't. In fact, it failed catastrophically.

Mistake. Or lost opportunity. Either way it amounts to the same thing. He should have given Catelyn and her party (with Lame Lothar and as many other quick witted dealers he had at his command) carte blanche to make marriage alliances for his family and his bannermen's sons. Of course, Renly was alive and young and at the head of the biggest army in Westeros at the time, so why would he think that, but still, there was a missed opportunity there for Catelyn to seize. Of course, it would probably mean Brienne's death.

Probably could have sent a Raven too. This is one of the few mistakes that Robb actually acknowledges(he points out how he should have sent someone to treat with the Tyrels). So I guess he gets points for realizing his mistake?

No mistake. He had thirty sworn swords around him. Jaime rallied his men and tried to cut his way to Robb before he was killed or taken captive. He killed several of Robb's bodyguards before they subdued him, but that is battle. Robb didn't get touched because his sworn swords did their job and died for their liege lord.

It absolutely is a mistake. Leading from the front has its advantages and its risks. He was LUCKY to have escaped the battle alive. The fact that Jaime Lannister gets his sword stuck right as he gets near Robb is pure luck. Luck happens in battle yes, but a good commander doesn't put himself in a position like that.

You forgot to mention the whole King in the North thing. That was a pretty big mistake. Of course, all of his bannermen are just as guilty of not seeing the problems with this.

While this was a mistake, the fact that he didn't bend the knee when he was losing is far far worse. The King of the North thing was understandable(though presumptuous) at the time. But after Blackwater it should have been time to bend the knee.

Instead he gets his loyal soldiers slaughtered.

And I agree Madden is doing good job with Robb.

[King_In_The_North]

-Sends Theon to Balon

-Leaves the North completely undefended

-Marriage

-Is stuck in the westerlands when the climatic battle of Blackwater takes place. A battle that loses him the war, whether he realizes it or not.

-Failure to make sure his commanders were on the same page as him("Hold Riverrun"). Would it have killed him to tell edmure that he should NOT engage Tywin?

-Fails to see the Tyrells as a good alliance and doesn't take advantage of their split with Renly and Stannis(the Lannisters with the aid of Little Finger do take advantage).

-Almost gets KILLED by Jaime Lannister in the Battle of the Whispering Wood. This is not usually sited as a mistake by him, but he was LUCKY that Jaime Lannister sword got stuck or he would have died right then and there.

He made a LOT of mistakes.

Only the first and the third ones are actually mistakes.

[Morrigan]

Not telling Edmure of his plan was also a mistake, and even Robb acknowledges that he should have talked to the Tyrells, so that's also a mistake.

[Joey Geko]

And we'll finally know once and for all whether the guy that stabbed him through the heart was really Bolton, I'm still not sure of that :P

It was not a Bolton, it was Ser Aenys Frey.

Ser Aenys Frey had marched three days before, striking northeast for the kingsroad. Bolton meant to follow him.

"The Trident is in flood," he [Frey] told Jaime. "Even at the ruby ford, the crossing will be difficult. You will give my warm regards to your father?"

"So long as you give mine to Robb Stark"

"That I shall." ----Kindle location 46549 Game of Thrones 4 book bundle

"Jaime Lannister sends his regards." He thrust his longsword through her son's heart, and twisted. ----Kindle location 48518 Game of Thrones 4 book bundle

So, there is that.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

I was wondering how the show is going to make us care for the characters beside Robb and Cat. When reading the book i genuinely felt sad about the Smalljon and Dacey. But unless they introduce the smalljon or Dacey in the next few episodes as part of Robb's guard.

I don't see this as a problem. Although we are meant in hindsight to assume they were with Robb all along, these characters aren't really there in any significant way until aSoS, in the chapters just preceeding the RW. George makes us feel bad because he has just fleshed these characters out right before he kills 'em off. It's similar to what he does with (the ludicrously overrated) Oberyn Martell.

[Morrigan]

You're reading it wrong. Ser Aenys had marched three days before Jaime left Harrenhal and it says that Bolton means to follow him later. It's Bolton who tells the Trident is in flood, not Ser Aenys, since Ser Aenys had already left three days ago.

Also, the description of the man who kills Robb fits Bolton:

A man in dark armor and a pale pink cloak spotted with blood stepped up to Robb. “Jaime Lannister sends his regards.” He thrust his longsword through her son’s heart, and twisted.

Bolton is known to wear a pale pink cloak:

Another man, still wetter, stood before the fire in a pale pink cloak trimmed with white fur. “Lord Bolton,” she said.

“Lady Catelyn,” he replied, his voice faint, “it is a pleasure to look on you again, even in such trying times.”

[Joey Geko]

You're reading it wrong. Ser Aenys had marched three days before Jaime left Harrenhal and it says that Bolton means to follow him later. It's Bolton who tells the Trident is in flood, not Ser Aenys, since Ser Aenys had already left three days ago.

Also, the description of the man who kills Robb fits Bolton:

Bolton is known to wear a pale pink cloak:

I am aware of Bolton's association with pink, but I read the passage where Jaime leaves Harrenhall to be pointing to Aenys, who is the first person referenced in the paragraph, and the 'regards' conversation being reported to us from 3 days past. I can't disagree with your position, but in my first read, subsequent re-reads, and even reading it to quote here, it comes off as awkward that the object of the paragraph at the beginning is not the one at the end.

To be clear, I am not stating that I must be correct, just that to me, it seems more natural upon reading it.

Pink evidence notwithstanding. ;-)

[MMOWarrior]

Well episode 9 only made my heart ache more...

[Miyamoto]

Renly on the other hand made every move right, and still got his throat ripped out by his brother's demonic shadow.

Robb was dead when he went south, but it was the only move he could make. His dad was imprisoned and sisters held hostage, what are the use of bannermen if you don't make them hold their oaths?

Also, I would he didn't tell Edmure his plans because the guy is a monumental boob. It would be like telling Gomer Pyle important intel only to have him screw it up. Why go raid Lannister lands if not to take pressure off the Riverlands, and Riverrun? "Hold Riverrun." A simple order. Not divide up your forces and try to gain glory, just hold the keep.

Robb also relied on the Blackfish for his strategy, if he had left him in charge of Riverrun it might have worked.

[MMOWarrior]

I think Robbs biggest mistake was having Cat for a Mother! she did more damage to the Starks than any Lannister! He should have put her in chains and had a few men drag her butt back to Winterfell!

[Knight Of The North]

Robb was dead when he went south,

Explain your logic. It seems to me that Robb had a massive chance of completely defeating the Lannisters if he heeded the advice of his more seasoned commanders, which he did, gained Allies where he could, which he did, and didn't cock-up politically, which he wasn't so good at.

Indeed, if you look at it from a purely military standpoint, Robb managed to do the impossible. He was outnumbered by an experienced general and a skilled warrior, albeit one without command experience, and managed to even the odds.

Boy should've just been less like his father, is all.

[metr0man]

Honestly there's a depressing cloud over all the Starks when I reread the books. Kind of like, "wow, nothing you are doing really matters at all."

[Miyamoto]

Explain your logic. It seems to me that Robb had a massive chance of completely defeating the Lannisters if he heeded the advice of his more seasoned commanders, which he did, gained Allies where he could, which he did, and didn't cock-up politically, which he wasn't so good at.

Indeed, if you look at it from a purely military standpoint, Robb managed to do the impossible. He was outnumbered by an experienced general and a skilled warrior, albeit one without command experience, and managed to even the odds.

Boy should've just been less like his father, is all.

And his grandfather and uncle. Trusting Theon Greyjoy was something of a massive blunder.

[Ser Hentron]

I just re-re-re-read the red wedding today, it doesn't really get easier.

I have friends that have never read the books and just watched the episode where Ned gets Joffey's haircut, and they were pissed, I told them to just wait for the Red Wedding.

[Greatjusticeman]

If this show is still going strong by the time the Red Wedding comes, it'll be a huge shocker. Be very interesting to see how they do it on screen, considering how much more violent it will be and such.

My friend started reading the books a few weeks before A Game of Thrones premiered, and just read the Red Wedding the other day. He's devastated by it, and I don't think he has picked up the book since then. I told him to keep on reading, for it kind of lightens up.

[scorpio_lady73]

Okay....Hi everyone, Im new to the community. Watched the first ep on HBO, fell inlove in 60 minutes. Read first 2 books...lickety split. Hit Storm of Swords, totally motivated to get thru it. And when the Red Wedding came up...and the second I read what had happened to ROBB....I turned my kindle off. I just could not read one more peice. So, I lied to myself cuz I had to read it again (just like in GoT when Ned was killed...just to make sure I wasnt reading it wrong)...then to find out what happens to the bannermen AND Cat????!!! Man...a day has not gone by that I havent read just a little bit of these books, but today was the first full day I didnt even want to pick up the book. I am SO pissed off about Robb AND Catelyn. And there is just no justice in Westeros. I wanted some vengence for Theon....didnt get it....and now no justice for the Starks.

I was really upset with this change in storyline...and im gunna have to put the book down for a while.