The Mad Genius Of Petyr Baelish

[Kasey]

I really don't buy that LF loves Sansa. I think she's a piece and a pretty trinket who reminds him on a girl he wanted when he was young and unimportant,and now the roles are reversee and he is in power of the pretty Tully maiden. I'm sure he wants her physically,he has kissed her more than once and I see obvious sexual interest,but I'm sure its just the desire to mount another virgin Tully and possess her physically to feel the superiority he could not experience when Cat was young. He's underestimating Sansa,of that I am sure. She's just a little bird now,but I'm sure she'll learn to use her talons someday. I know Sansa is a Stark but its her auburn Tully looks that have attracted LF to her. I don't think he's capable of actually loving anyone but himself. He might want to keep Sansa for himself,but not out of love,just like you'd keep a toy you don't want to share with the other kids even though you're sick of it yourself.

[WhiteWalder]

tl;dr

same here.

[Danielsnag]

I really don't buy that LF loves Sansa. I think she's a piece and a pretty trinket who reminds him on a girl he wanted when he was young and unimportant,and now the roles are reversee and he is in power of the pretty Tully maiden. I'm sure he wants her physically,he has kissed her more than once and I see obvious sexual interest,but I'm sure its just the desire to mount another virgin Tully and possess her physically to feel the superiority he could not experience when Cat was young. He's underestimating Sansa,of that I am sure. She's just a little bird now,but I'm sure she'll learn to use her talons someday. I know Sansa is a Stark but its her auburn Tully looks that have attracted LF to her. I don't think he's capable of actually loving anyone but himself. He might want to keep Sansa for himself,but not out of love,just like you'd keep a toy you don't want to share with the other kids even though you're sick of it yourself.

This is one of my biggest questions about Littlefinger. I do believe he has feelings towards Sansa, who he sees as Cat, but I doubt he would let those feeling overcome him like when he kissed her. He's better then that, but I don't see how he could have foreseen the events that would come as a result of it.

[IRON BANK]

Baelish is one of the more interesting characters with in the story. however I feel he wants the IT and will use Sansa and her claim to the north to try and get. When Petyr took Sansa to the Vale and kissed her outside that all but confirmed his true intentions to me.

[Rivermouth]

I agree with your analysis and I would go further: Petyr Baelish is the future-that-would-have-been of Westeros, if magic was not coming back into the world.

Throughout ASoIaF you can the feudal system is starting to exhaust itself, right? Too many surplus sons, honor & fealty taking a back seat to gold, and not least, war after war after war. In our world, only 150 years separated the Wars of the Roses in England from Oliver Cromwell and the beginnings of the modern, capitalist state.

Littlefinger is a perfect scion of the new: of relatively low birth, with a base in the ascendant merchants rather than the other aristocrats, and with an understanding of the new economy that his contemporaries just don't have. I don't think he's clinically insane, but in this sense he's a madman: the way Petyr Baelish sees the world is completely irreconcilable with the consensus of his time.

And part of this worldview is, necessarily, a rationalism paralleling the Enlightenment of our own world. In contrast to Varys, who's seen magic firsthand, LF doesn't have time for superstition or indeed prophecy. In ACoK almost everyone is reacting in one way or another to the comet. LF just carries on with his plans.

And that means he's going to be overtaken. Does LF have the flexibility to keep control in a world that, suddenly, has dragons and Others in it? Is his takeover of the Vale a means by which he can seal himself off from the rest of Westeros and hold tight until rationality is restored?

I always thought that it was pretty obvious what Littlefinger's endgame is. His monologue in the TV show pretty much confirmed it for me.

Littlefinger's endgame is to end the game of thrones. In ASoIaF, he represents the renaissance, the rise of the merchant class and the toppling of the aristocracy. He is rich and powerful without being born into aristocracy. Instead of being born into priviledge, he uses his own hard work to create his own future. I don't think he wants Sansa or Catelyn. He resents that he never had a chance with her because she was the daughter of a Tully and he was the son of a Baelish. They were better together, but Brandon Stark got her just because he was born into power. He looked at his society where the only way to defeat a noble was by playing the game, and to play the game you had be born into it. He's essentially thinking meta-game, he's beating his opponent by flipping the board.

[joluoto]

I always considers the three queens to be Sansa, Margaery and Cersei. I don't think Littlefinger is counting on Daenerys showing up at all. The arrival of dragons (first fAegon, then Dany) will be one of the things that seriously challenge LF's plotting.

[The Meeraculous Third Reed]

I agree with your analysis and I would go further: Petyr Baelish is the future-that-would-have-been of Westeros, if magic was not coming back into the world.

Throughout ASoIaF you can the feudal system is starting to exhaust itself, right? Too many surplus sons, honor & fealty taking a back seat to gold, and not least, war after war after war. In our world, only 150 years separated the Wars of the Roses in England from Oliver Cromwell and the beginnings of the modern, capitalist state.

Littlefinger is a perfect scion of the new: of relatively low birth, with a base in the ascendant merchants rather than the other aristocrats, and with an understanding of the new economy that his contemporaries just don't have. I don't think he's clinically insane, but in this sense he's a madman: the way Petyr Baelish sees the world is completely irreconcilable with the consensus of his time.

And part of this worldview is, necessarily, a rationalism paralleling the Enlightenment of our own world. In contrast to Varys, who's seen magic firsthand, LF doesn't have time for superstition or indeed prophecy. In ACoK almost everyone is reacting in one way or another to the comet. LF just carries on with his plans.

And that means he's going to be overtaken. Does LF have the flexibility to keep control in a world that, suddenly, has dragons and Others in it? Is his takeover of the Vale a means by which he can seal himself off from the rest of Westeros and hold tight until rationality is restored?

I like you (platonically).

MInus the last paragraph. I think the Great One has his finger closer to the pulse of magic/dragons than we think. Oswell didn't come back from Braavos/wherever to discuss the price of fish.

[Blackfish Tully]

I always considers the three queens to be Sansa, Margaery and Cersei. I don't think Littlefinger is counting on Daenerys showing up at all. The arrival of dragons (first fAegon, then Dany) will be one of the things that seriously challenge LF's plotting.

I'm not so sure about this . As a member of the small council he was getting regular updates on Dany so he defintetly knows that she is out there and as Master of Coin he would have contacts all over the world so he would probably have had as much information about what she was doing as anybody except maybe Varys. I think he knows she's coming and has been planning for it all along but he had no idea about Aegon so we will see how he handles that wrinkle.

[direwienerdog]

I always assumed that his history with the Tullys was the main reason of his acts. He believes that Cat really loved him(the night with Lysa explains that) and they couldn't end up together because of his low birth. So he started to plot his rise when Hoster Tully banished him. But he saw greater opportunities after he found about the twincest and decided to take them, rather than just fucking up the Tullys.

I think that his initial plan was getting Lysa pregnant with his own child, and his own blood being the heir(and lord afterwards) to the great Eyrie and the Vale. It would be a delight to see the blood that everybody looked down on running in the vains of a "Mighty Lord".

But as he is a very ambitious and egocentric man, he might have seen an opportunity for himself after he found out about the twincest. And SweetRobin turned out to be a shame for him. So he came up with the plot that Halfhand summed up.

Regarding his future; maybe in one point, he realised that Hoster Tully wasn't the (only) one to blame, it was the system(aristocracy), and he saw the bigger picture. I think that in the inside he loathes flattering the lords all the time even for his own sake, he hates the fact that he will never be treated like Tywin(for example), and he is sick of being looked down on. So to some point, he represents the Bourgeoisie, he has the money, doesn't have the respect, and tried to make his way up raising statute by getting into the council and marriage and given lordship etc, but after some point I think that he'll snap and decide to take all the power for himself, bringing the Westeros down. And it'll be his downfall. Or maybe not.

Thank you for finally getting to the point of what motivates LF. Of all the scheming and underhanded manipulations LF does it seems everyone has an opinion.

To understand LF we must understand not his acts but why he does things in the first place.

LG 's first brush with Westerosi society and it's rules of nobility shape his personality and motivation.

His love of Catelyn and subsequent dual with Brandon Stark, his idealism( kind of reminds me of Sansa) that his is true love and true love will always win in the end. His life being spared by Catelyn intercession. And finally being banish back to his humble beginnings, shape LG 's obsession to prove he is worthy.

He schemes and scams his way to a position of power always staying in the background. He looks to powerful nobles as a clever man who's hard work has paid off.

They never consider him a threat ( other than Varys who also comes from a lowborn beginning).

Having done all the planning and defeating of supposed more powerful high nobles.All in the background all in his unassuming manner LF is readying his plans for.....we don't really know.

We don't know what he plans for Sansa either, even though we have several ideas thrown our way.

Although we don't know LG 's endgame we can speculate.

What I'm getting at is( and I'm sorry for being long winded here) what will be LF's downfall. Could it be he will finally declare himself a great Lord? He is Lord of Harrenhal. Will he be accepted as such? Unlikely.

No he won't do that.

His downfall will be the same as it was in the beginning. He is in love with a woman ( and Sansa is considered a woman by all Westerosi conventions, religion, politics etc.) Please don't let your Real World sensibilities intrude on this topic. We all know you feelings, it's pedo,sick and all your other objections have been duly noted.

LF will try to get Sansa maidenhead. He believes he deserves it, just as he thought he deserved Catelyn's.

Personally I hope it's not a rape scene. We've had enough of those George! We get it, it's a brutal world this Westeros and Essos of your imagination.

I hope he tries to convince her that Hary the Heir is as brutal as the Bastard of Bolton and if she gives him her maidenhead Hary will reject her( of course another LF Lie).

Somehow Sansa or maybe somebody like Ser Shadrick( that would be fitting if the man LF hires and one who is after Sansa for payment,is the one who rescues her and blows the lid of LF's entire plan.

Anyway ( I'm taking a deep breath and exhaling.... my longest post by far) that's my take on motive and the downfall of the force, who has seemed untouchable to this point. The great and powerful Oz ummm LF.

[direwienerdog]

I really don't buy that LF loves Sansa. I think she's a piece and a pretty trinket who reminds him on a girl he wanted when he was young and unimportant,and now the roles are reversee and he is in power of the pretty Tully maiden. I'm sure he wants her physically,he has kissed her more than once and I see obvious sexual interest,but I'm sure its just the desire to mount another virgin Tully and possess her physically to feel the superiority he could not experience when Cat was young. He's underestimating Sansa,of that I am sure. She's just a little bird now,but I'm sure she'll learn to use her talons someday. I know Sansa is a Stark but its her auburn Tully looks that have attracted LF to her. I don't think he's capable of actually loving anyone but himself. He might want to keep Sansa for himself,but not out of love,just like you'd keep a toy you don't want to share with the other kids even though you're sick of it yourself.

Everyone in this story has a weakness. LF was Cat. That is denied him so Sansa is next on his list. LF covets Sansa. This may not be love he feels, but it's enough to bring about his downfall. And LF IS goin' down.

[qixoticneurotic]

also when petyr introduces his "natural daughter" immediately suspiscions are going to run in the direction of who her mother is and sansa has a suspisciously tully look to her. so petyr reinforces a previous rumor while simultaneously hiding the truth.

[Jason Stublaka]

I think that Baelish is a great character, but I still want to see him die, Varys and Illyrio too. They've been manipulating the game of thrones since the beginning and when something doesn't goes as they plan, I'll be laughing. :drunk:

[Ser Lady Stark Martell]

My apologies, but I didn't read the whole thing.

Anyway, I agree with the title! I do think Petyr is a mad genius. His madness is what makes him a genius. He's one of the smartest characters in the series, and not only that: he's patient. He winds people up and watches them go. If it works out the way he planned, good. If it doesn't, he shrugs it off and starts Plan B.

I don't like his relationship with Sansa, I think it's creepy. Initially I thought it was a part of his plans, but I do think Sansa will play an important role in his downfall. Because, let's face it: he will have a downfall. Unfortunately. But so far, he's been one of the smartest characters in the books. I admire him for that. I'm not his biggest fan, though, but whatever, that doesn't change the fact the man is a freaking genius.

[BarrelRoll42]

Wow, what a post! Bookmarking this for later....during work hours.

[Iskandros]

I hope Petyr doesn't die. I would like to find out more about his personality and motives. Although I'm pretty sure he will die :(

[MaesterFredson]

Thank you for the post!

I just realized we will get Littlefinger in a POV, but not one that ever ends good...

*in the first or last chapter of a book, probably #8 in 2026

[Rhaegar Jaime Tyrell]

Bump!

I dont think he has it all planned . However is very adept at readjusting his plans.

[Autumn is Arriving]

Thank you for the post!

I just realized we will get Littlefinger in a POV, but not one that ever ends good...

*in the first or last chapter of a book, probably #8 in 2026

:lmao:

In the wise words of good ol' Alfred (from Batman: The Dark Knight): "Because some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn."

That's pretty much what I think of Petyr. He just likes the chaos.

[Moita]

I read a lot of the first post, didn't finished but really enjoyed, I'll finish reading it later.

As for the posts talking about Sansa being the downfall of LF, it does make sense that Sansa could be LF weakness due to the points that many stated but I just can't swallow it, something doesn't feel right about this. It feels like there has to be more for Sansa and Petyr, not just ordinary characters with ordinary weaknesses.

There's too many connections between them, opposite but converging, both of them with unpredictable motives and objectives, by the absence or by the surplus.

Sansa started the series as a naive girl always in a different path, unsure of what she really expect or wants, drifting in the wind yet very ambitious as her actions have shown.

While Petyr, more incisive and clear in his goals, is equally unpredictable even when he is marching and trumpeting of the directions he will take, you just can't really believe.

But then, maybe, a weakness could have a bigger role as part of a indoctrination process. Sansa has evolved a lot, has suffered a lot and will suffer even more, learning from her wounds. I have a feeling that LF has a lot of fingers in this process, controlling her tormenting in the shadows, preparing her for god knows what.

[Gerg Sknab]

I was surprized while doing a word search on this topic and there were zero results...The words were Great Northern Conspiricy...kinda shocking considering the moves Littlefinger has been making....Lord Paramount of the Riverlands, the removal of Sansa to the Vale, the marriage and subsequent death of Lysa Ayrrn, the handling of the Lords Delacant, the manuevering in favour of Harry the Heir, seeming imminent death of Robin Ayrrn and the quiet but as unyet fully revealed pact he made with the Tyrells...

At this point he is close to wraping up the Vale and Riverlands...he will be more than satisfied to let Stannis and the Boltons pound each other into submission then reintroductuce Sansa into the equation to the North (whether married to Harry or not) believing he still has control of her...All the dominoes fall he becomes in al but name Regent of the North, Riverlands and the Vale..as for the Tyrell pact I believe he and Mace have come up with thee Great Soutron Conspiricy whereby Mace is Regent in all but name of the Crownlands, Stormlands, Westerlands and the Reach....