The Mad Genius Of Petyr Baelish

[Mdoggy]

IMO if anybody question's Alanye's origins, Peyter can use it to his advantage. If someone finds out her supposed "mother" does not exist, he can use her Tully features to his advantage. He could make it so it seems like she is lysa's bastard daughter who was declared a stillborn and sent away by Jon because he suspect she was Little Finger's.

Lysa being Alanye's "mother" would make a great cover story. If it was a great Lord who found out, LF could persuade him to keep quiet and not tarnish Jon Arryn's memory.

What he can use as evidence:

1: Sansa's Tully looks

2: Lysa being happy about his baseborn daughter

3: Sweet Robin's fondness for Sansa

4: Her secretive past is a cover to protect Jon Arryn's reputation

5: why he hadnt learned of her before

6: Why she suddenly appeared (Lysa and Peyter were getting married afterall)

7: Even use the fact that she dyes her hair after being told by Lysa

This would make him look vulnerable and make the lords understand why Lysa married him and dispell rumors that either Sansa or Peyter pushed Lysa out the moon door.

I think he could turn someone realizing that Alanye isnt who he says she is to his advantage. (I think the vale lords are not convinced of her origins and this would give him an easy way to explain it)

What do u guys think?

[No Song so Sweet]

Didn't read the whole topic, but congratulations on OP for a great summary and commentary.

[Zorral]

Two things...

First, this forum is dedicated to discussing 1,000+ page books and people complain this post is too long?

Second, if you don't want to read it, don't bother posting a reply. Its a waste of everyone's time. Thank you.

This post is meant to focus on Petyr Baelish's role in the Song Of Ice And Fire tale without being distracted by other characters and events he doesn't have a part in.

:agree: :cheers:

Writing out all the information available about Littlefinger -- and those who read it all -- creates competency in discussions as to who, what, when, where -- and why. Isn't that quite the point of these forums, why they exist and why people participate?

[Mithras]

I think LF will try to rape Sansa in the Vale and she will slay her.

[willofDorne]

One of my favorite characters in the Song of Ice and Fire novels is Petyr Baelish. Though considered a "minor character" in the sense we never get a POV chapter from him, he is actually quite a major player in the events of the books. Many people like to refer to Tyrion as the Machiavelli figure in the tale, but to me, Petyr is really the puppet master of the story - more so than Tyrion could ever hope to be.

The thing that strikes me most about Petyr is that he thrives on chaos. The more crazy the situation, the more opportunities he's able to extract from it. Indeed, rules, law, and order are all things that keep the status quo. Petyr is interested in advancement, and in that sense chaos is the only thing that gives him the opportunity to do so.

Petyr is constantly underestimated in the stories because of his low birth, and he prefers to indirectly influence many events through manipulation of other "pieces" in the Game of Thrones. Indeed, though Petyr is the catalyst for pretty much all the political turmoil in the story, very little of it (if any) can actually be traced back to him.

What Petyr's ultimate goals are continue to be a mystery. I don't think he aspires to sit the Iron Throne himself, since that would make him too big of a target and be far too perilous for his liking. I don't think his motives are for revenge since most of the people who wronged him in his youth are dead or dying. I don't even think wealth has much to do with it, since he is already, by all accounts, wealthier than most lords in Westeros.

So what is it that motivates Petyr Baelish? What is his ultimate game plan? He is really the only character in the story so far who has consistently come out on top and advanced himself while so many others have met tragic ends. Could it be that he's an agent of chaos, and his only goal is to cause as much upheaval as possible? Is he loyal to someone else and works for their benefit? Or does he have lofty goals that he's striving to achieve, to set himself up for ultimate power?

I wish I could answer these questions. But I do know this - Petyr Baelish is a mad genius, and the ultimate player in the Game of Thrones. He knows what it takes to move every piece in the game, he does not fear change and when unexpected developments arise, he quickly adjusts to suit the situation, and most of all - he's always defeating those who play against him.

Because there is no real POV for Petyr in the books, its easy to overlook his accomplishments since he appears sporatically, and his true actions are not really revealed until much later in the story.

This post is to put together the actions of Petyr Baelish to fully explore the role he's played in the events of A Song of Ice And Fire, as a testament to his "mad genius" when it comes to playing this Game of Thrones.

Most of this is taken from the books, though some of my own theories on his actions and motivations are peppered in where it makes sense to do so.

Petyr's great-grandfather was born in Braavos and came to the Vale of Arryn as a sellsword in the hire of Lord Corbray, and took the head of the Titan of Braavos - a grey stone head with fiery eyes upon a green field -- as his sigil when he was knighted.

Hoster Tully, Lord of Riverrun, served in the War of the Ninepenny Kings, where Maelys Blackfyre secured the Stepstones as a foothold to invade the Seven Kingdoms. During the war, Lord Tully made friends with Petyr Baelish's father, and invited Lord Baelish to have his son Petyr fostered at Riverrun once the war was over.

A young Petyr Baelish was sent to Riverrun as Hoster Tully's ward and raised alongside Tully's trueborn children - Catelyn, Lysa, and Edmure. It was Edmure who gave him the nickname "Littlefinger," since Petyr's family ruled a small piece of land from The Fingers, a stretch of stoney coastline located north of the Vale of Arryn in the East.

The Baelish ancestral home has no formal name, and has little valueable land, mostly consisting of rocks and small herds of sheep. Petyr sarcastically refers to himself as "Lord of Sheepshit and Master of the Drearfort" in regards to it.

During his time at Riverrun, Petyr grew close to the Tully children, and fell in love with Catelyn Tully as he grew up. Though Lysa Tully fell in love with Petyr, Catelyn could not bring herself to look upon him as anything more than a "little brother." This lead to a love Triangle, with Lysa jealous of Catelyn and Petyr's affection for her.

One day, Lord Braken and Lord Blackwood came to Riverrun to seek Hoster Tully's help in a dispute between the two lords. Lord Braken brought a singer along with him and that evening the singer performed during a feast and Catelyn danced with Petyr six times. Eventually, the lords began to argue and Hoster Tully brought them to his audience chamber, leaving the children to their own devices.

Without supervision, the children began to drink wine unempeded. Edmure got drunk, and Petyr got up enough courage to attempt to kiss Catelyn. However, Catelyn laughed at him and pushed him away. The rejection hurt Petyr emotionally and he continued to drink until he passed out to help deaden his sorrow. Brynden Tully ended up carrying Petyr back to his bedchamber so Hoster Tully would not find him drunk.

Lysa Tully, feeling sorry for Petyr, snuck into his bedchamber that night to comfort him. She ended up having sex with him in his drunken state, losing her virginity to him. Petyr told her he loved her, but in his drunkenness, thought she was actually Catelyn, before passing out again after doing the deed. (This accounts for why Petyr believes he deflowered Catelyn Tully and would often brag about it.)

When Brandon Stark was engaged to Catelyn, Petyr challenged him to a duel for her hand. Petyr, after all, believed that Catelyn actually had feelings for him because of that night with Lysa. When Brandon Stark arrived for the duel, Catelyn begged him not to kill Petyr, since she thought of him as family. Brandon agreed, and in the duel, gave Petyr a wound to the ribs, piercing him harshly enough that it was feared he might die from the wound. Thus, Brandon was the winner of the duel, but spared Petyr's life, before running off to King's Landing with his father.

I had to stop reading here... ok. What makes you think Petyr and Catelyn never had anything? It is just as likely that they very well did have something, but a duel made more sense when the arranged match came up. This makes Petyr a much more human character. Also, the power of chastity comes up often in Game of Thrones. The Night's Watch, the Kingsguard, the Unsullied, Varys, followers of R'hllor (It's said more in one of the games that Priests of R'hllor are chaste). It would only make sense that this would empower Petyr to great lengths, and come from a pure standpoint. Petyr takes a terrible terrible blow when he loses a duel for Catyln's hand, and as I recall... he never relented against Brandon. He basically chose to die rather than lose the duel, but was thoroughly too thoroughly pummeled to get back up. In this world everything is decided by combat, and that's just the way of it. Even if he did claim her maidenhead and heart, an arranged match and a duel could just as easily make that as if it never happened.

Anyways... I think you have to look at him as a scorned lover who somehow takes that and makes it his power. He uses that against people in his running of his "business" and never "gets high on his own supply" because of his faithfulness. In this way, he's got the discipline of an Unsullied or a Kingsguard. And it's doubled because it comes from a pure place. It just so happens that this power becomes a slippery thing, and one minute he's doing Stark a favor by taking him out of his way, and the next he's executing him. One minute he's saving Sansa, but the next, he's executing Dontos. It happens so quickly, but I dare say he's still pure of heart in some way. This could not all come from some drunken imagined night. It has to be that he experienced a true love, and a truly heartbreaking defeat. A defeat one could never get over, something that would be impossible to experience in the modern era. I think it's all this unique circumstance that makes him so powerful and so single minded.

So anyways, I stopped reading there. I'll just re-read the books rather than your distorted viewpoint. haha

[Androme]

Why would Littlefinger support Daenerys?

[Tallspear]

loved this post very well written and i actually did read it all the way through

[Aaron of Doomed Valyria]

This is not a real post. This is someone who just went on kindle and copy and pasted significant parts of the book.

[Roose is Azor Ahai]

Actually, Roose Bolton is behing everything.

[Renee Sansa]

Two things...

First, this forum is dedicated to discussing 1,000+ page books and people complain this post is too long?

Second, if you don't want to read it, don't bother posting a reply. Its a waste of everyone's time. Thank you.

This post is meant to focus on Petyr Baelish's role in the Song Of Ice And Fire tale without being distracted by other characters and events he doesn't have a part in.

My thoughts exactly. The books are not too long for you, but this post is??

Anyways, well done!!! :D I'm a big fan of his and you explained his motives and moves in such detail! I agree, we have yet to learn his ultimate motive and that he has a big role to play in the events to come. He reminds me of a quote I think explains him aa a persona very well: In all Chaos there is a Cosmos, in all Disorder a secret Order.

[Modesty Lannister]

There are many factual inaccuraces in your OP.

That being said, I am not sure what the purpose of it is. You retold your version of events from the books envolving Petyr Baelish. I do not see the point since we all read the books, especially since the OP is not really precise.

I agree he is a genius. I do not agree he is mad.

I agree he ended up being wounded both physically and emotionally by Catelyn, Edmure and Hoster Tully and that prompted him to transform into Littlefinger. Sansa has made the distinction between his private and public persona - a distinction her mother never managed to make.

His motive is undoubtably revenge, but it is more than that. He undoubtably wants Sansa for himself and that is certainly the pinacle of his revenge towards the Tullies and Starks.

But, is that the end? I doubt it. Littlefinger cannot escape his own public persona anymore. He likes the game too much. He is addicted to it. And that is HIS weakness, apart from his weakness for Sansa. He cannot stop gambling.

What I am surprised by is how many people dislike Petry Baelish. Why am I surprised? Because Westeros is a class society in which even lesser lords have little say. So, why is Littlefinger so bad when he is playing with lords? Are they all honourable and good? No. They are mostly scum. And unlike them, he is a self-made man, so we are supposed to admire him for climbing the unclimbable ladder of birth privilages using just his wits. He is, in that respect, very similar to Lann the Clever (I think GRRM repeats his motives constantly this being just one example). Of course, the majority hates him with passion for betraying Eddard Stark, but from his POV revenge on the Starks is a must. It is his raison d'être. Brandon did not just, as you say, stab him in a rib. He sliced him vertically. And he was a just a kid in love while Brandon was a grown man (not at all in love as we know from lady Dustin). And Brandon stole his love (from Petyr Baelish's perspective) just because he was the heir of a LP. The same applies to Ned. We know Ned and Catelyn were not in love when they married. Petyr Baelish has no way of knowing that things changed. Did he ever speak to Catelyn after he was kicked out of Riverrun and before she arrived to KL? So, from his POV, she was forced to marry Ned "for the swords" just like Lysa.

We know Ned is honourable, but that is not what Baelish sees.

To cut the long story short, I always wonder why people hate Varys and/or Littlefinger - the only two salf-made men with power? We are supposed to be products of democratic societies. Yet, we detest two people who do not belong to the ruling class for managing to climb up or manipulatng those priviledged from birth. Why is that?

ETA: Aiden Gillen who plays LF in the show said in an interview LF is likely to support Daenerys.

[LadySharpTeeth]

What has LF done to make people in his world as they are ? People were cruel even without his interference.

LF was victim of society he lived in . He cannot hope to love a girl his heart desires only because he was born poorer.

I say : Bad , Callous, and Stupid World. Even today such world exists in closed Caste-based Societies where Honor Killing occurs in Our Indian Villages and Cities, too.... So LF is not that bad..

His finances weren't his problem with Cat. She never wanted him. Her father's disapproval didn't even come into it until Lysa got pregnant.

[Nerevanin]

His finances weren't his problem with Cat. She never wanted him. Her father's disapproval didn't even come into it until Lysa got pregnant.

It's clear that Hoster didn't want any of his daughters to marry such a lowborn boy. I suppose he saw Petyr's feelings for Catelyn (if he even noticed them) just as a child's game and didn't take them seriously, especially when Catelyn didn't want him. He probably didn't notice that Lysa loved him. It seems to me that even Catelyn didn't know how deep and passionate Lysa's feeling were. But notice how angry Hoster got when Petyr first dared to oppose to Catelyn's bethrothal and challenged Brandon and to top that Hoster discovered that Petyr had got Lysa pregnant. Then Hoster didn't even wait for Petyr's wounds to heal and sent him away as soon as he could and he aborted his child (it's debatable whether he would do it no matter who that father of the child was to save her daughter's reputation, or if one of the main reasons why he did it was because of his rage towards Petyr).

[Connartist92]

Petyr's great-grandfather was born in Braavos and came to the Vale of Arryn as a sellsword in the hire of Lord Corbray, and took the head of the Titan of Braavos - a grey stone head with fiery eyes upon a green field -- as his sigil when he was knighted.

I've always thought, is it possible that Petyr was descended from a Blackfyre? I know it's a crack pot idea, but... PetYR BAElish, sounds a bit Valyrian to me. (Yes I know I'm reaching) Even though his great-grandfather was born in Braavos, we're not sure that's where the family originates. What if he was born of an exiled female Blackfyre, and returned home to Westeros under the guise of being a sellsword with Corbray? And the generations have been bidding their time, waiting to gain power and make their move... Idk the more I try to explain it the less plausible it sounds... Just an idea, doubtful at best.

[_Jack_]

14,802 words later...wait what are we talking about?

[Seith Stark]

To The Halfhand. I thought about this for a while. First.. I would like to say thanks for putting it all together. I had the desire to know how far back Petyr scheming has gone. I am at this point curious about the singing targerian. Yes it was long but worth the reading. No regrets.

[BlackFyre > BlackFire]

..

[BlackFyre > BlackFire]

now I have something to keep me occupied until the next book comes out...this OP.

 

To cut the long story short, I always wonder why people hate Varys and/or Littlefinger - the only two salf-made men with power? We are supposed to be products of democratic societies. Yet, we detest two people who do not belong to the ruling class for managing to climb up or manipulatng those priviledged from birth. Why is that?

 

ETA: Aiden Gillen who plays LF in the show said in an interview LF is likely to support Daenerys.

 

I don't dislike Petry because he's a "self-made man". I dislike him because he uses people. He's manipulative and callous. If he is supposed to be some paragon of democratic societies then there is something very wrong with democratic societies.

 

Had he risen to a position of power without lying and killing and betraying everyone he knows, then maybe I'd like him.

 

What does anything the actor has to say have to do with anything?

[Modesty Lannister]

now I have something to keep me occupied until the next book comes out...this OP.

 

 

I don't dislike Petry because he's a "self-made man". I dislike him because he uses people. He's manipulative and callous. If he is supposed to be some paragon of democratic societies then there is something very wrong with democratic societies.

 

Had he risen to a position of power without lying and killing and betraying everyone he knows, then maybe I'd like him.

 

What does anything the actor has to say have to do with anything?

You have deliberately misread what I wrote. I never described LF as "paragon of democracy". Name one character in power who is not manipulative. Most of them believe they have divine right to manipulate. And Baelish rose to power by rising customs revenue tenfold. It is very explicitly said in the books. 

 

What Aiden Gillen said is relevant for my response to one of the posters. No need to react in such a way out of context. This is a debate, not a mortal combat. A little civility would be nice.  :cheers:

[Lord Wraith]

 

Had he risen to a position of power without lying and killing and betraying everyone he knows, then maybe I'd like him.

 

 

 

So how do you rise to power in Westeros with his method or military conquest?  Neither of which are likeable.