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Xray the Enforcer

[Book Spoilers] EP108 Discussion Part 2

253 posts in this topic

Okay, I think we've established that getting beaten over the head with a training sword/kendo equipment/anything heavy really bloody hurts.

I think the main problem is the flashiness of the scene, the quickness of the sword movements, the flamboyancy of the fight . Respectfully, I think it's...slightly misguided to argue that. The entire point of Syrio's teaching is quickness, speed, agility, darting in and out of reach, making the sword an extension of yourself. If you look back over the fight, it's almost as if Syrio isn't hitting the guards with a practice sword, but his hand. I think the entire fight portrayed it magnificently; he flows between each engagement, and uses all the techniques we've seen him teaching Arya. Alright, the philosophies, atleast.

"Not today."

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Did anyone else notice Varys reaction to how Selmy was treated. He didn't look to happy about it at all. I'm pretty sure Varys the one who introduces him to Illyrio and therefore Daenarys. The Spider's web keeps getting more and more intricate.

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Thus concludes "Rockroi Gets Defensive About a Mistake He Made Nitpicking the Show And Hopefully This Will Be a Lesson To Him to Stop Nitpicking You Ungrateful SOB Who Should Just Be Happy That the Only Sci-Fi Fantasy Book He Ever Liked Was Made Into A Movie And Get Off People's Backs. Asshole."

:lol:

That was awesome, Rock.

Let's raise a glass to Septa Mordane. Yes she's repressive and a killjoy and fosters archaic sex role stereotypes, but she died as nobly as anyone in the show. She may not be the badass Syrio is, but she gave her life for the Starks. :bowdown:

Indeed! :cheers:

I seriously got all choked up during that scene. And then again when I was talking about it with my copy editor.

If any of you wants to test your theory, we can meet at a con. I'll loan you my helmet, and proceed take a swing at you with my stick. It will end well.

I would pay good money to watch that. :whip:

Edited by Xray the Enforcer

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I'd say it's generally a combination of that most people aren't good at fighting and that some are superb. Forrest Griffin is a very good fighter but Anderson Silva still made him look like an amateur. Syrio isn't really intended to beat the watch because they suck (although they aren't elite either), but because he's so extraordinarily good. As for the military aspect (I did my 15 month mandatory service in a Swedish version of the rangers), that has a bit less about with pure ability and a bit more with strategy and not fighting fair IMO. :)

I agree with you about wood being a decently effective material for a weapon (although it has lower density than steel, but I know what you meant). The training swords were also made with a led core, at least in the book, so that can indeed land a pretty heavy blow and you'll definitely not like being hit by neither hard wood or metal while wearing a helmet. The biggest problem with wood is it's durability.

You can certainly make a sword even heavier than a wooden sword though (look at what the Mountain is wielding), and especially maces and hammers were heavier and less well balanced just to pierce armor. It's all about the context of the fights you'll be getting into. The sword seems to have been a more versatile weapon and therefor the choice of the really dedicated warriors (in addition to it's significant symbolic value) given that all the surviving combat manuals are for sword fighting.

Everyone else sucks was a joke, but somewhat true. When you get to the skill levels of a Silva, there really is only a nominal difference between fighters. Kind of like baseball. The difference between a .250 hitter and .300 hitter is a mere 25 hits over a season, and yet one is an all star and the other is heading back to AAA. Still, the .250 hitter is among a very elite group of players that millions of kids dream about being. Not quite sure where I was going with this, but I am sure it was intended to mean something.

Steel is obviously denser than wood, but a steel sword may not be as dense as a wooden sword. A steel sword needs to be strong but also very light, whereas a wooden sword needs to be strong and comprised of strong and cured woods that won't break easily. Again, it is much like a baseball bat. They can and do break, but not as often as would happen if they weren't made out of proper woods and along the grain. Now think of a steel bat (not aluminum). It would have to be very thin in order to not be too heavy to swing. The balance between weight and thickness would probably make it not nearly dense enough to be an effective tool for hitting a ball. Unless of course you are the mountain. Then all bets are off.

You are absolutely right about the sword requiring dedicated warriors. The training is very intense and takes years to accomplish. That is why the spear is the one weapon that in my opinion is the most important invention in the history of warfare. It is really easy to use, requires less training due to its length and intuitive nature required to utilize it, is very inexpensive to mass produce, and works as an equalizer against pretty much any form of melee combat. Instead of having trained knights do all the fighting, you can now conscript peasants and still have a force that can fight without being a mere nuisance to the opposing knights.

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The practice sword wasn't a wooden broad sword had to be light enough for Arya. Despite that though it doesn't take that hard of a hit to the head to stun someone and a helmet may protect against your skull getting crushed but not much protection from getting your bell rung. I watched my battle buddy in basic training get knocked out wearing a padded helmet and getting hit by a padded pugil-stick.

Edited by BastardSon

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Excellent episode.

What I took from the Greatjon scenes is that he is being shown as more calculating then in the books. He takes several long looks around the room during both scenes with Robb to seemingly gauge support. Only after finding that support seemingly lacking does he either capitulate or leave.

As far as the counting thing goes, I recall a bit from Clausewitz where he discusses the ability to gauge the amount of enemy troops from a distance. It has something to do with finding the size of a given area, gauging how many men are in that area, and then comparing the given area to the entire enemy force. He also talks about learning how to look at a piece of land and being able to figure out how many men could fit in it.

You can certainly make a sword even heavier than a wooden sword though (look at what the Mountain is wielding), and especially maces and hammers were heavier and less well balanced just to pierce armor.

Maces and hammers were not less well balanced then a sword - just balanced differently because they were totally different weapons made for different purposes and wielded totally differently.

It's all about the context of the fights you'll be getting into. The sword seems to have been a more versatile weapon and therefor the choice of the really dedicated warriors (in addition to it's significant symbolic value) given that all the surviving combat manuals are for sword fighting.

In real life the sword was the least versatile, usually only effective against enemies not wearing armor. Axes, maces, pole axes and spears were the primary arms of the Middle Ages - swords were basically side arms in combat between knights. The sword was the equivalent of a .45, the pole axe, mace or lance (big spear) were the assault rife.

Edited by CelticBrennus

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Did anyone else notice Varys reaction to how Selmy was treated. He didn't look to happy about it at all. I'm pretty sure Varys the one who introduces him to Illyrio and therefore Daenarys. The Spider's web keeps getting more and more intricate.

It is know.

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Speaking of Septa Mordane's final scene, a comment on another board that I thought was hilarious: "was I the only person half expecting her to pull out a light saber as she approached those guards?" Now I can't watch the scene without picturing it. She totally has the serene Jedi expression.

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Speaking of Septa Mordane's final scene, a comment on another board that I thought was hilarious: "was I the only person half expecting her to pull out a light saber as she approached those guards?" Now I can't watch the scene without picturing it. She totally has the serene Jedi expression.

I wanted her to wave her hand and state, "These are not the Starks you are looking for" myself.

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I think Tywin was so confident in his 30k plus men and his scouts probably saw Tyrion with the clans men so he purposely let him come in without an escort.

I don't know if they should cast heavy weights for season 2. I am afraid of cost overruns a la Rome. We still have to introduce most of High Garden, Stannis and crew, the Greyjoy crew (yay Asha). There's a lot of characters to go.

I still think people giving less than a 10 are comparing apples with worms. Does any other tv show in entertainment forum subsection hit two threads in two days?

Greatcock!

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I just thought it was SO STUPID for Robb to let that scout live, why in the world would he do that? Just so he could have some half assed boast at Tywin, "I'm gonna kill you mofo!" SO STUPID.

And I cringe whenever I see LF in a scene, he doesn't do it for me at all.

I thought he had a great reason for doing this. Unless I missed something he had just told his mother he had 18000 men, the scout thought he had at least 20000. Misinforming your enemy is a good enough reason to let a scout live. If their other scouts can't find an army that large they are terrible. Also, the message he sends reinforces Tywin's thoughts that Robb is a green boy who will not strategize but will just come charging into a fight he will lose and then go home.

Edit: Sorry as a I read more of the thread people already answered this statement with similar responses.

Edited by wolverine

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That was awesome, Rock.

Thanks to those who enjoy my self-deprecation.

But I just want to point out that when I am wrong about something, I fess up. I think we need more of that on these boards. Especially people who say Sandor is the KotLT and still ask if Ned and Lyanna are Jon Snow's parents.

Or people who seriously believe that Syrio is the Faceless man. Seriously- this is actually happening.

Or maybe I can just return to all the threads dedicated to how much Cat/Arya/Dany sucks. That's always fun.

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But I just want to point out that when I am wrong about something, I fess up. I think we need more of that on these boards.

No,we need more of them in this world, particularly my wife.

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I'm a noob but here's my 2 cents:

There should be a nitpickers' thread and a "I mostly enjoyed it so I'm not going to pur over obscure details which caused me displeasure" thread. Some of us are "glass half full" types, others see but the negative space within the upper half of said glass.

There also could have been a separate thread for Syrio's ability to render guards crippled through use of his wooden saber.

And while my imagination is at it - a whole Sansa thread. Weighing motivations against age against experience against actress's depiction against the square root of pi. And don't forget to talk about her southern hairdo.

Wait, I just realized we won't see Lysa and Robin again until Season 3. How old is that kid gonna look when we next see him pawing at Mom's blouse?

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I am new to all of this, and absolutely love it all. I feel a little gross though, pervin a dish over Robb and Jon onscreen and then carrying that over to the books...where they are NOT the strapping MEN as they are on HBO.

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Some posters have commented that the Arya/stableboy scene was rushed and poorly shot. I suspect that was by design - the idea being to create a confused moment when Arya's killing of the stableboy wasn't clearly accidental or deliberate, but open to interpretation.

As I recall, in the book, Arya stabs the boy in a flash of anger and fear, but unquestionably deliberately. Maybe GRRM felt that tv viewers wouldn't accept a child killer.

I thought this episode got Sansa's character back on track - she was much closer to the book's self-absorbed innocent. Her plea for her father's life is the first sympathetic moment she's had in the show.

Edited by Landless Knight

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Some posters have commented that the Arya/stableboy scene was rushed and poorly shot. I suspect that was by design - the idea being to create a confused moment when Arya's killing of the stableboy wasn't clearly accidental or deliberate, but open to interpretation.

As I recall, in the book, Arya stabs the boy in a flash of anger and fear, but unquestionably deliberately. Maybe GRRM felt that tv viewers wouldn't accept a child killer.

Book readers could (or could not), so TV viewers could too (or could not). Besides the stabbing moment was all sorts of weird due to the camera work.

Tyrion's and Shagga's exchange about chopping the manhood was weird and came out of nowhere, especially since I'm guessing it was supposed to be comical. They should have at least two or three instances of Shagga saying this to deliver the comedy in the later exchange. Then I noticed that GRRM wrote in his blog that Tyrion and Bronn's meeting up with the clans was supposed to occur in Episode 7 (and was actually written by Dan & David) but was pushed to Episode 8. So I'm guessing it was trimmed down to fit into the episode and we've lost some great "I'll chop off your manhood and fit it to the goats" moments. Oh Roz... what have you done to us...

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I've been watching Game of Thrones on series link since the beginning, over here in Britain, and seeing scenes from the book have just made my day. And like every other reader, I've strongly connected with characters I feel were potrayed well and felt an inkling of doubt for characters I didn't think were coming across as I thought they should.

All that aside! What an episode. They've all been great..but Jon fighting the Wights? Greatjon..Kudos to this guy. He was funny, boisterous, loud and everything you could hope. He brought an element of comedy to the North that in no way robbed it of anything it needed to remain a serious affair! As for Barristan Selmy, my first impressions were "old" but I suppose justly so. Seeing him inform the other five Kingsguard he could "cut through them like they were cake" was just epic viewing. And of course, we all wanted to see Syrio show Arya how real water dancing goes, not to mention his 'death' was once again not shown as in the books. Speculation abound!

A big question though, what's everyone's thoughts on Tywin? He got a lot of hype in the books about his air of authority and how just being in the room with him you were caught in an aura of intimidation and resolution. How's everyone feel he's been in the few minutes we've seen him?

(Shagga, Son of Dolf was great!)

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Maybe GRRM felt that tv viewers wouldn't accept a child killer.

Well, then either they change a lot of Arya's storyline or they get used to it, because that's what she is in the books.

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Everyone else sucks was a joke, but somewhat true. When you get to the skill levels of a Silva, there really is only a nominal difference between fighters. Kind of like baseball. The difference between a .250 hitter and .300 hitter is a mere 25 hits over a season, and yet one is an all star and the other is heading back to AAA. Still, the .250 hitter is among a very elite group of players that millions of kids dream about being. Not quite sure where I was going with this, but I am sure it was intended to mean something.

Steel is obviously denser than wood, but a steel sword may not be as dense as a wooden sword. A steel sword needs to be strong but also very light, whereas a wooden sword needs to be strong and comprised of strong and cured woods that won't break easily. Again, it is much like a baseball bat. They can and do break, but not as often as would happen if they weren't made out of proper woods and along the grain. Now think of a steel bat (not aluminum). It would have to be very thin in order to not be too heavy to swing. The balance between weight and thickness would probably make it not nearly dense enough to be an effective tool for hitting a ball. Unless of course you are the mountain. Then all bets are off.

You are absolutely right about the sword requiring dedicated warriors. The training is very intense and takes years to accomplish. That is why the spear is the one weapon that in my opinion is the most important invention in the history of warfare. It is really easy to use, requires less training due to its length and intuitive nature required to utilize it, is very inexpensive to mass produce, and works as an equalizer against pretty much any form of melee combat. Instead of having trained knights do all the fighting, you can now conscript peasants and still have a force that can fight without being a mere nuisance to the opposing knights.

Yes, I was just saying that sometimes it's about just being that damn good. I think we agree in general on this fairly vague subject.

As for density I don't think you'll get any wood to be of that high density. I don't know any numbers for treated woods but the highest density wood is 1.49 times that of water, while carbon steel is 7.84 times that of water. Quite a difference and I can't see any way of getting wood that high since it would become something else in the process. That would be why the training swords had a led core, because getting a proper weight to it would make it a bit too big and change how it flows through the air.

I fully agree that the spear was a very important step in warfare technology. A great weapon to enhance the masses.

Edited by Tywin's bastard

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