[BOOK/TVSPOILERS] Blackfish

[Padraig]

As a simple example, we just saw three of the hill tribe leaders: Shagga, Chella, Timmet. Did we really need ALL of them, more than we need the Blackfish (next season, not this)? Of course not.

But only Shagga had actual lines. I don't think people want the Blackfish to appear as a background character with no lines. :)

And yes, you can argue that they could have cut some characters from S1 that have actually appeared. But that doesn't mean that they couldn't have been cut. It just means that D&D choose not to. Similarly the Blackfish could be cut but D&D may choose not to. They have many choices to make. They can't cut every possible candidate or they would be left with very few characters. But they can cut a number.

Nobody can show that the Blackfish will definitely be cut. But its definitely an option.

We'll have more Tullys next season.

Admittedly, that wouldn't be very difficult. :) And i'm not sure about Robb. There are a lot of new storylines to replace the castmembers that have died. (Theon, Stannis etc). I wouldn't be surprised if they have a few more Robb scenes but they can use the Greatjon as his companion in those scenes.

I don't really see the Blackfish talking to Jaime either. (He leaves Riverrun pretty early in aCoK anyhow). Catelyn and Robb will offer the most spice, so I imagine if any further scenes with Jaime are shown, it will be with one of those.

I am not one hundred percent sure, but I think it was mentioned somewhere in the books that Blackfish(besides being and excellent scout and outrider) was Robb's main strategic planner or that it was his strategy that got Jamie captured.

Pretty sure that the Blackfish was responsible for the Whispering Woods ambush alright but Robb was responsible for the splitting the armies gambit. And when Robb went West, he seems to have increased his reputation even more. The Blackfish was his main advisor but I don't think he was the strategic genius of the two.

[Athelstane]

Im rereading, and Im in the middle of ACoK, and I don't remember any mentioning of Blackfish being Robbs strategic force. He's his outrider, and he helps at Riverrun, but the idea to split his forces in two to feint Tywin was Robbs idea.

[Bunyon Knight]

Im rereading, and Im in the middle of ACoK, and I don't remember any mentioning of Blackfish being Robbs strategic force. He's his outrider, and he helps at Riverrun, but the idea to split his forces in two to feint Tywin was Robbs idea.

Blackfish was responsible for Jamie's capture, which was the most important piece towards Robb's victory had he been able to get out of his own way and not had his family and allies screw his every order and plan. The only mistake I've seen Brynden make, was agreeing that Robb should go back to the Freys(not that Catelyn left em any choice, they had no chance without the Frey's since Jainie was released)

P.S. I hate Catelyn. From the moment she muttered the words "it should have been you" to screwing any chance of victory her son had and condemning her family to certain doom. And now the bitch is back and zombified, dear god can things get any worse? You leave Brienne and Pod alone!!!!! You hear me you sick twisted bitch!?!?!?

P.P.S. As far as Im concerned, Blackfish was one of the most important people that Robb had to himself(strategy wise). Nothing short of GRRM stating otherwise will change my mind on that topic.

[Lord of Brewtown]

I'm hoping that they cast Blackfish at some point. However, I'm thinking that we might not get him until a later season (3 or 4 if we get that many seasons). I'm thinking that if possible, HBO prefers to commit to the actors for a season at a time only if they are not 'main' characters (my opinion only). That gives them more flexibility/less chance of actor turnover between seasons (which would be even more confusing for viewers who haven't already read the books - a lot of characters to remember already, changing the casting from one season to another wouldn't help). Along those lines, the best chance for bigger name actors is probably in the role of characters who are not around that long (think the Red Viper if we get a 3rd season).

Frankly, I'd be fine with casting a newer/less experienced actor in roles such as the Blackfish, and making it a non-speaking role (or very limited lines) - almost like a returning extra. Make the role something that a new viewer doesn't really have to think or care about, or even pay attention to at all, but that still pleases some of the readers (and you can always grow the character later - think something like Chief O'Brien originally was on Star Trek:TNG).

[malarky1231]

No way. The Blackfish has to be featured prominently. He's just one of those characters that they have to flesh out. Every he does is simply badass and he's the only Tully I like. Him along with standout characters like Roose Bolton and Jaqen have to make a large presence next season

[Padraig]

P.P.S. As far as Im concerned, Blackfish was one of the most important people that Robb had to himself(strategy wise). Nothing short of GRRM stating otherwise will change my mind on that topic.

I don't think there is any doubt that the Blackfish was Robb's most important advisor but that doesn't mean that Robb wasn't the strategic genius of the two.

[Cruella_Da_Oz]

Some characters are harder to cut than the others. I don't see how you can argue otherwise. And some have to be cut. Robb will have Greatjon, Kastark, Theon even in the beginning, even his mother (who will need stuff to do, but isn't military expert obviously). Robb IS a military prodigy and he can came up with his best bits all by himself.

Jaqen I think is necessary, or they will have to come up with totally different way for Arya to end up with Faceless, and Roose Bolton does a lot of stuff - main turncloak - and is force to be reckoned with in the North right now. Ramsey is his son and very important too. Actually I get a feeling that if they include BF, it means he has some specific function to do in the future (well, there must be a reason why Martin let him get away from Riverrun)

[Bunyon Knight]

I don't think there is any doubt that the Blackfish was Robb's most important advisor but that doesn't mean that Robb wasn't the strategic genius of the two.

I never really thought Robb to be a strategic genius. Too good and smart for his age, yes. But to me, most of his intelligence had to do with realizing he needed to surround himself with smart advisers(or at least many advisers so you can pick the better choice). I challenge the claim that Robb is a genius, his mistakes far outweighed his successes. Like I said, he is too good and smart for his own age, but a genius he is not. A genius doesn't get his whole family murdered and than destroys all his credibility in one shot.

And it's not ok to get rid of a character like Blackfish. There is just way too much badassery going on with Brynden. I'm really annoyed with this choice so far.

[malarky1231]

I never really thought Robb to be a strategic genius. Too good and smart for his age, yes. But to me, most of his intelligence had to do with realizing he needed to surround himself with smart advisers(or at least many advisers so you can pick the better choice). I challenge the claim that Robb is a genius, his mistakes far outweighed his successes. Like I said, he is too good and smart for his own age, but a genius he is not. A genius doesn't get his whole family murdered and than destroys all his credibility in one shot.

And it's not ok to get rid of a character like Blackfish. There is just way too much badassery going on with Brynden. I'm really annoyed with this choice so far.

I'm still convinced Robb was a military genius. I mean the guy never loses a battle. His only weakness was political short-sightiness, but his advisers should have been able to remedy that.

[Bunyon Knight]

I'm still convinced Robb was a military genius. I mean the guy never loses a battle. His only weakness was political short-sightiness, but his advisers should have been able to remedy that.

Don't get me wrong, I do have great admiration for Robb's accomplishments on the battlefield. Hell, he's one of my favorite characters and I wish he would have lived through this. Maybe he was a strategic genius, but part of his brilliance was knowing who to listen to, and making the right choice from the advice he received. But how then was he able to undo all the greatness he accomplished in one single stroke of utter stupidity?

As always, I blame Catelyn for everything. I know it was Robb who screwed the Freys but had Robb been able to hold on to Jaimie, Tywin would have been kept in check to an extent.

[Lady Blackfish]

Tywin had already started planning the Red Wedding before Jaime's release. He would have hardly needed to fear for Jaime's life since he would have had Lord Tully and, at the time of planning, his sister, mother of the late king of the north, in his custody. Robb can be militarily gifted and still a fallible hormonal teenager, there's no contradiction there.

[Jojen]

I really hope that they don't make Edmure more badass or "manly", he's supposed to be the goofy little brother that never quite measured up next to Catelyn's Perfect Older Sister.

That would be like the opposite of what they did with Renly.

Really, they need to keep both Edmure and Bryden separate characters and have them play off one another. If for no other reason than to show that not all the Tullys are crazy/wusses.

[Bunyon Knight]

Tywin had already started planning the Red Wedding before Jaime's release. He would have hardly needed to fear for Jaime's life since he would have had Lord Tully and, at the time of planning, his sister, mother of the late king of the north, in his custody. Robb can be militarily gifted and still a fallible hormonal teenager, there's no contradiction there.

I never said there was a contradiction. I'm saying I think Robb was a great military planner, but I also think a lot of his greatness came from listening his advisers. Just because Tywin planned the red wedding doesn't mean it would have turned out the way it did if Jaimie was still prisoner. I doubt Tywin would allow Robb's murder as Jaimie's life would be forfeit. They would have had Edmure hostage(Lord of Riverun, but no one in the North would trade him for a piece like Jaimie). And Catelyn is a woman, so obviosly her value isn't high enough. Tywin must have known that at least some of Robb's bannermen would murder Jaimie if Robb was killed.

Now whether the Northmen would be able to put together the fact that the Freys didn't act alone is another story altogether.

[malarky1231]

That would be like the opposite of what they did with Renly.

Really, they need to keep both Edmure and Bryden separate characters and have them play off one another. If for no other reason than to show that not all the Tullys are crazy/wusses.

I'm sure the only Tully who is competent is Bryden Blackfish. Isn't that's why he's called the Blackfish? He's the blacksheep of the family, and he even refused to marry the women chosen for him. He's possibly the only 60 year old guy that could be compared to Selmy

[Ran]

Tywin's in KL. He can't do anything about the Freys or Boltons killing Robb, except after the fact. Doubtless if Jaime was killed because of the Red Wedding, he'd blame the conspirators and do something terrible to them... but I think he was betting on Jaime being safe, if suitable hostages were taken.

[Lady Blackfish]

They would have had Edmure hostage(Lord of Riverun, but no one in the North would trade him for a piece like Jaimie). And Catelyn is a woman, so obviosly her value isn't high enough. Tywin must have known that at least some of Robb's bannermen would murder Jaimie if Robb was killed.

Most of Robb's bannermen were with him at the Twins. Jaime was at Riverrun, then in custody of the Blackfish. The Blackfish not trading Jaime for his nephew and niece is beyond my belief.

Brynden the Blackfish is called the Blackfish because he refused to marry, it had nothing to do with competency. He is a formidable soldier and good at that occupation, though then again this particular war was not won or lost on the field. In any case, I think we all can rest assured that measuring up the competency of the various families is not high on HBO's list of priorities, considering that most people I know watching the show without having read the books can't stop talking about how stupid Ned was after the past few episodes. Mistakes make the plot turn, they just need to get through the plot and fill up the time between with enough to get audiences emotionally invested in the various storylines of the characters they've chosen to focus on.

[Panjer]

They could still introduce the Blackfish in season 2. (Maybe he's been doing mercenary work before hearing of the war.)

While I do agree that he can easily be cut I did always see him as the voice of experience and reason in Robb's war councils. If they choose to do the mercenary-across-the-sea angle I stated above they could even let him give some exposition about the various mercenary companies which will be important later. (Brave companions, Golden company etc.)

Feel free to correct me on this if it would be out of character for him though. Even though he's one of my favourites (Not for doing anything specific, just his presence) I wouldn't mind if he was cut.

[Padraig]

But how then was he able to undo all the greatness he accomplished in one single stroke of utter stupidity?

Been a military genius doesn't mean he can't make mistakes off the field. He was also very unlucky. The Tyrell-Lannister alliance (and who would have expected that?) meant he had little chance of holding any of the south.

As people have said, Tywin wasn't going to stop the Red Wedding. Tyrion noted at the end of aGoT that Tywin considered Jaime dead already. Tywin is ruthless enough to take risks.

Catelyn's actions didn't change things really.

[Podrick + Arya = Win]

Unless Martin has specifically told the show's creators anything specific or important about Brynden's fate, I doubt that they would cast this character. This is why Martin needs to get on and finish the series for the sake of the TV series if nothing else.

Killing off main characters and bringing into focus secondary characters has done him immense harm already (look at Feast) but if he continues to do this, we might well end up with Brynden and Lady Mormont as primary characters towards the end.

[Padraig]

Unless Martin has specifically told the show's creators anything specific or important about Brynden's fate, I doubt that they would cast this character. This is why Martin needs to get on and finish the series for the sake of the TV series if nothing else.

GRRM has explained to the TV producers the main secrets behind the series, so there is no real harm.

Killing off characters is a tricky thing. But should everyone be invulnerable instead? I can't see how that series would be loved.