Edmure Tully

[Talleyrand]

I don't get how Edmure trying to have Jaime brought back in is a bad thing. His lord ordered him to keep Jaime prisoner. Edmure gets back to find Jaime let free by Cat. The soon to be lord Tully had to send someone after him

[spitsphyre]

I don't get how Edmure trying to have Jaime brought back in is a bad thing. His lord ordered him to keep Jaime prisoner. Edmure gets back to find Jaime let free by Cat. The soon to be lord Tully had to send someone after him

I think the whole telling the entire realm that he escaped thing was the problem. That wasn't the deftest thing to do, it made them look bad.

I think Edmure is just someone thrown into a bad situation with not enough training. But he is too impressed with himself to see what his short comings. He's not a bad person, far from it, but he's just not as talented as he would like to think

[Errant Bard]

It's not a bad thing per se, it's just thoughtless from the point of view of Catelyn. Catelyn freed Jaime so his exchange would be considered a fait accompli and the blame would fall only on her, not on Robb. Edmure launching pursuit without talking to her or thinking about it declares to the world that what she did is not an exchange but an escape, it just dooms any possible exchange. Not that Cat didn't expect it, the chances for it to succeed were always minimal anyway. Better than zero though, but Edmure destroys that.

[spitsphyre]

Well even Cat's opinions aside, it made them look inept to lose him. There were other courses of action he could have taken and they didn't have to be letting him go, but sending out ravens are a little ham-fisted. Which is why I think it's just another sign that he was out of his depth.

[Lady Blackfish]

Not just from the perspective of Catelyn. Edmure could have sent out a search without notifying the whole realm of Jaime's escape. His announcement let other people know enough to search for him themselves, which decreases the chances of him being brought back to Riverrun (Edmure's goal). It let the Lannisters know that Jaime could no longer be used as leverage against them before it was necessary.

I understood why he did it though, he was trying to set things aright the best he knew how.

I don't think Edmure thinks he is more talented than he is, he always seems to feel his insecurities really keenly. He just tries very hard to be more than what he fears he is, to live up to the situation. But there's no substitute for experience and he didn't really have the right experiences to compensate for his lack of innate extreme discipline. Like the vast majority of people, he had to learn the hard way.

[Errant Bard]

Well even Cat's opinions aside, it made them look inept to lose him.

Not really, if it's advertised as an exchange: it makes them look decent, confident, honourable, and noble

[Boots]

I think Edmure was thrust into the role that he's in a bit soon. Even if he is 25-27. I adore Edmure for some reason, he's one of the characters I'd like to have a pint with, I can imagine the problems it caused with his father is on his deathbed, then his sister arrests another lordling, and people start to burn and pillage his lands. HE thinks before he acts, but he rarely gets credit for any of the good things he does. I think he was right to let the smallfolk in the castle and his victory over Tywin was a result of Robb trying to be all Chessmastery and not telling his Generals what he needed them to do directly. Edmure may not have liked that plan but he would have followed it if Robb had said "Don't fight Tywin, I have a plan."

Mainly he just seems a guy quite a bit out of his depth where no one is giving him any respect for the occasional correct thing he does, and when he does something wrong he gets absolutely torn apart. He's a far better peacetime lord than wartime lord. Poor guy.

[Raven Queen]

He would have legally been an adult for 9-11 years at this point. I think that a lot of the reason people look down on him is because you have a person like Robb who ISN'T an adult when the war starts (he was only 15) doing better than he was.

Agreed; Edmure's immaturity is what, in my opinion leads many to have a "Not too bright" impression of him. It's several little moments that add up to this impression - for example, he's whiny about the song Tom Sevenstrings wrote about him. Either deal with the singer or laugh it off- but the fact that he even allows the song to still bother him is ridiculous. He's also still resentful of the woman Tom "stole" from him, apparently a long time ago- come on Edmure, how much turmoil do your lands and family need to be for you to get your mind off your dick?

Similarly, his complaints about Lord Frey possibly choosing an ugly wife for him was SO exasperating. I wanted to shake him- their whole alliance was thrown into question, the Tully's had an opportunity to salvage it, and all Edmure could do was bitch and moan about not wanting to marry an ugly girl. Yeesh.

All in all- yes, I agree he's not a bad guy, but he is hard to take seriously and that's due to his own actions and behavior.

However his final chapter with Jaime seems to indicate he's grown a lot during his capture. I was definitely proud of him when he tells Jaime off.

[Alexia]

Similarly, his complaints about Lord Frey possibly choosing an ugly wife for him was SO exasperating. I wanted to shake him- their whole alliance was thrown into question, the Tully's had an opportunity to salvage it, and all Edmure could do was bitch and moan about not wanting to marry an ugly girl.

I empathized with him a little there - as a woman, I probably should not but I couldn't help it. Robb didn't want to marry an ugly girl either, so he goes and breaks his oath (HIS oath, let me remind you) and then bullies poor Edmure into marrying the ugly girl Robb didn't want to marry. And somehow Edmure is supposed to be the bad guy here.

Edmure is a sweetheart and I like him.

[Spring Bass]

I'm hoping something good happens to him for once. Like Nymeria's Monster Wolf Pack attacking his escorts in the night, whereupon he's freed by the Blackfish and some rogue men. They then sneak back to Riverrun, where Tom O'Sevens has lowered the gates and allowed UnCat and her people to sneak in and kill Emmon Frey and his guards.

. . .

Sorry, that was my weekly dose of ASOIAF-related optimism. Most likely he'll just die at Casterly Rock, assuming he and his group don't just get caught in the Winter and freeze to death.

[spitsphyre]

Sorry, that was my weekly dose of ASOIAF-related optimism. Most likely he'll just die at Casterly Rock, assuming he and his group don't just get caught in the Winter and freeze to death.

*ice covered tumbleweeds roll by*

Sounds about right.

[witless chum]

Re: The idea that Robb's plan to defeat Tywin wasn't sure, even if Edmure read minds.

Well, the nice thing about the plan is Robb and the Blackfish don't even have to fight Tywin. They just have to draw him west long enough for Stannis to besiege and take King's Landing. Even leaving Stannis aside, Robb can just lead Tywin on a chase through the west, while doing to the Westerlands what the Lannisters have done to the Riverlands. They can just stay ahead of Tywin while raiding and then retreat back to the Riverlands, if they don't get a chance to fight him in a favorable situation.

[Faint]

Given his circumstances and the remoteness of the possibility of his escape, I still think the more likely possibility is that Catelyn simply ambushes the party going back to Casterly Rock. And, instead of saving Edmure -- which is what the Lannister contingent expects -- she'll actually kill everyone there. The Westerlings for their betrayal and her brother for his cock ups with respect to handling Jaime's escape, his interference with Robb's strategy, and for giving up Riverrrun.

[spitsphyre]

Re: The idea that Robb's plan to defeat Tywin wasn't sure, even if Edmure read minds.

Well, the nice thing about the plan is Robb and the Blackfish don't even have to fight Tywin. They just have to draw him west long enough for Stannis to besiege and take King's Landing. Even leaving Stannis aside, Robb can just lead Tywin on a chase through the west, while doing to the Westerlands what the Lannisters have done to the Riverlands. They can just stay ahead of Tywin while raiding and then retreat back to the Riverlands, if they don't get a chance to fight him in a favorable situation.

Yeah, that seemed to be the general plan. It kept Tywin occupied, gave the armies a chance to raid the food of the westerlands, and let them be a general nuisance that couldn't be ignored. It would have been better had Theon actually convinced Balon to help.

[Errant Bard]

I still don't get how it defeats Tywin. If the idea was that being a nuisance and fleeing around in the Westerlands was enough, Robb did not especially need Tywin behind him to do that, right? So why did he stop?

And most of all, why wouldn't Tywin just be a bigger nuisance in the Riverlands and the North, while leaving the defense to his others armies, which would not move in enemy territory and be more actually numerous than Robb's, if it works like that?

This is just weird: an army cannot survive without logistics, some supply lines, and some bases, it cannot run around playing hide and seek, fighting battles and living off the land for very long. As far as pincer attacks go, Robb was the one who would have been taken in one.That Tywin wouldn't have wondered if Edmure in his castle could not have come by coincidence to hit his army from behind is just inconceivable.

[Lady Blackfish]

I empathized with him a little there - as a woman, I probably should not but I couldn't help it. Robb didn't want to marry an ugly girl either, so he goes and breaks his oath (HIS oath, let me remind you) and then bullies poor Edmure into marrying the ugly girl Robb didn't want to marry. And somehow Edmure is supposed to be the bad guy here.

I read this situation a bit differently. I don't think Robb had any objections about his Frey betrothed's looks, certainly I can't remember him bringing it up so it seems unfair to pin that on him. And if it was true, then I don't think it was the reason he broke his oath. His interlude with Jeyne seemed like a moment of weakness (pain from his injuries, emotional vulnerability from Bran and Rickon's "deaths"), and then he put Jeyne's honor above his own, as they say.

As for making Edmure marry, everyone in the room was probably wanting Edmure to accept. Robb and Brynden both effectively said "Dude, we're not going to force you, not in this matter of all things ... but you know, it sure does seem like a good solution, and it's not like you don't have any fuck-ups to make up for." Coercion of a sort, perhaps, but there wasn't that much actual bullying going on. I think they were sincere in recognizing the hypocrisy of them commanding Edmure to marry, but the situation was simply so tense and fraught that to drop the matter entirely would be dangerous. These people's personal lives don't really belonging to them, because they are born into such power, but on the other hand they are still people with personal needs and wants.

I think Robb would have married his Frey girl without complaint if he hadn't had sex with Jeyne in a moment of emotional weakness, and I do think it contrasts quite a bit with Edmure's behavior. As does Catelyn's memories of agreeing to marry Ned without complaint right after her utterly hot fiance gets grotesquely murdered. Robb and Catelyn are the kind of people to sacrifice for duty without complaint. Edmure sacrifices, but he did drag his feet. It's inconvenient in this tense of a situation, but in peacetime I doubt anyone would much begrudge him his desire to see his bride before he commits to marrying her. That sounds sensible enough, and plenty of people in the books are attracted to a pretty face.

[spitsphyre]

I still don't get how it defeats Tywin. If the idea was that being a nuisance and fleeing around in the Westerlands was enough, Robb did not especially need Tywin behind him to do that, right? So why did he stop?

It kept Tywin away from King's Landing and Stannis.

And most of all, why wouldn't Tywin just be a bigger nuisance in the Riverlands and the North, while leaving the defense to his others armies, which would not move in enemy territory and be more actually numerous than Robb's, if it works like that?

First: Tywin's honor, while completely different than the Stark's, was tweaked that someone was in his lands, messing with his stuff.

Second: His other armies for the most part weren't very disciplined and best for reaving and causing havoc. They were monsters, not good for going head-to-head with Robb. He HAD been trying to muster another army for just that idea, he left another relative in charge of the training since none of the men were ready for battle yet, but Robb destroyed it.

That Tywin wouldn't have wondered if Edmure in his castle could not have come by coincidence to hit his army from behind is just inconceivable.

No, he would have seen Edmure as holding the good, strong ground. They could easily hold their ground within the walls of Riverrun. Edmure going to meet him was just an attempt to gain glory, he wasn't defending much of anything at that point.

[spitsphyre]

I read this situation a bit differently. I don't think Robb had any objections about his Frey betrothed's looks, certainly I can't remember him bringing it up so it seems unfair to pin that on him. And if it was true, then I don't think it was the reason he broke his oath. His interlude with Jeyne seemed like a moment of weakness (pain from his injuries, emotional vulnerability from Bran and Rickon's "deaths"), and then he put Jeyne's honor above his own, as they say.

That's how I saw it. And then later on, finding out what we did about Jeyne's mother and her hand in things, I sort of wonder if she hadn't arranged for Robb to be ready to take her daughter?

I think they were sincere in recognizing the hypocrisy of them commanding Edmure to marry

Doesn't the Blackfish even say something to the effect of "I'm the last man in the world who hold refusing to marry against you..." or something?

I think Robb would have married his Frey girl without complaint if he hadn't had sex with Jeyne in a moment of emotional weakness, and I do think it contrasts quite a bit with Edmure's behavior. As does Catelyn's memories of agreeing to marry Ned without complaint right after her utterly hot fiance gets grotesquely murdered. Robb and Catelyn are the kind of people to sacrifice for duty without complaint. Edmure sacrifices, but he did drag his feet. It's inconvenient in this tense of a situation, but in peacetime I doubt anyone would much begrudge him his desire to see his bride before he commits to marrying her. That sounds sensible enough, and plenty of people in the books are attracted to a pretty face.

Yeah. Add to this they were all suffering and unhappy and nervous, that made his complaints about this seem even more churlish. Not to say that his complaints weren't fueled by the same circumstances, just that everyone had a shorter fuse and didn't want to hear it.

[zmflavius]

Zmflavius:

We don't know how many men Edmure had at Riverrun when Jaime attacked, but given that it was stated to be "the massed power of the Tullys," I'm guessing it was at least 10k men, which is near your own number of 11k (and who knows, the actual number could be even larger). I doubt Riverrun could house so many men within its walls even in the best circumstances, to say nothing of their horses and baggage train. Several thousand men, sure, but IMO the larger part of the host would have had no choice but to camp outside Riverrun, where it would have been vulnerable if the force inside the castle remained within in the event of an attack. Therefore, I think your options of Edmure letting Jaime pass by or allowing Jaime to besiege Riverrun are impractical. With a host that large, Edmure had IMO no choice but to give battle to Jaime.

Hmmm...yeah, I suppose so.

[Alexia]

His interlude with Jeyne seemed like a moment of weakness (pain from his injuries, emotional vulnerability from Bran and Rickon's "deaths"), and then he put Jeyne's honor above his own, as they say.

TBH, I think that the whole thing about putting Jeyne's honor above his own is a load of crap he used to justify his actions. Jeyne was pretty. He liked her. Contrast that to an unknown Frey girl from a family who has the reputation of ugliness. I think its a simple a matter as Robb thinking with the wrong head. Jeyne would have been fine had he quietly arranged a marriage for her and fostered any bastard child she might bear with one of his bannermen.

I have to reread the scene but I don't recall it being anywhere near as understanding as you depict. In fact, my whole sense was that they decided to blame THEIR fuck-up on Edmure (because the poor man can't read minds) to bully him into being the sacrificial lamb and paying the price for Robb breaking his oath. And that, simply put, wasn't fair.

I also think they treated him with extraordinary disrespect, considering that Edmure was a high lord in his own right and his lands are being ravaged for Robb's revenge. Not cool, Robb and Brynden, not cool.

*Understand that I'm not saying Robb or Brynden are evil men. They made a mistake, both in the case of not sharing their plans (and I honestly think they wanted Edmure to put up a fight but thought he was so inept he'd naturally lose) and in the case of marrying Jeyne. They acted like jackasses, IMO, but everyone is a jackass now and again. Edmure was somewhat immature in complaining, I grant you that, but they can shut up and listen considering that he's paying the price for their mistakes.