Perception of the Lannister boys

[MrDoog]

From reading this forum it's become apparent that generally speaking, both Tyrion and Jaime are 2 of the more popular characters in the series. I also keep reading about Jaime's "redemption" and this quite annoys me since to me, Tyrion seems the far more sinister of the two.

What has Jaime done that was so bad that he's in need of this redemption? (this is just off the top of my head having reread the series last month)

- Broke his sworn oath when he killed the mad King Aerys. An act that saved hundreds, if not thousands of lives and freed the realm of a terrible ruler. He's slated for this because it's "dishonourable", yet Ned frequently gets lambasted on these boards for being so stubborn in his honour. This act has followed him around negatively ever since.

- His relationship with Cersei. Incest isn't my thing, but he does think he loves her. Added to that she's married to a drunken abusive man i'm not going to knock him for covetting his neighbour's wife.

- Throwing Bran from the tower. Okay this is bad, almost certainly his worst act. Yet, in doing so he was protecting his sister and the woman he loves. Had he not, both their heads would've probably been lopped off. He didn't have much time to think it through and probably chose poorly.

- Attacked Ned and had Jory killed. IMO quite understandable. Ex-Hand Ned is outnumbered in a confrontation situation.. so what does he say? Why, that Tyrion was arrested under his orders of course. Smart move Ned.

- Led the assault and siege of Riverun. Well it IS war, so this can't really be deemed as an affront on Jaime's character since he's acting in the interest of his house.

Now onto Tyrion's deeds..

- Not going to knock him for his penchant for whores and sexual deviances, whatever floats the man's boat.

- Promises the Vale to complete savages. Why? Because he was arrested? Psshh. He's hardly the first man to be wrongfully accused of something and at the time, there was evidence(false)against him. Anyway, peculiar Westeros law found him "not guilty" so he goes free.... Only to promise the vale to Hill tribes who would no doubt be of immense beneft of the Vale's smallfolk. I'm sure the the goats would appreciate someone like Shagga ruling since they'd be feasting on testicles constantly but I somehow doubt any rational person would. Tyrion makes this promise to save his own skin because possibly since he's bitter about being accosted by Caetlyn under the King's law. He then goes on to arm and pay them to the point where the tribes are now a decent force. But events concerning Robb, Renly and Stannis mean we never know if Tyrion would've made good on his promise.

- He orders Bronn to murder a singer and make him into a bloody stew! This is just depraved. His motive? The singer might, well, start singing a tale and then the little man wouldn't be getting regular sex anymore. Bless.

- Rather than move Shae somewhere safe prior to the battle of King's Landing, he rather insists she come with him, putting her in enormous danger. No doubt a pretty girl like that would've been unmercilessly gangraped had Stannis' army won the day. Tyrion's motive? Why because the man didn't feel like going a few weeks without sex and he's beginning to fool himself into thinking this is something other than a business arrangement.

- During the battle on the Blackwater he commands to essentially set the whole battlefield aflame with wildfire. A pretty good move that smashes Stannis' fleet, but pretty bloody ruthless too. Wildfire is surely the most horrible way to die and yet he pours this stuff indiscriminantly, killing a lot of his own men in the process. Reminded me of Longshanks' archers firing on his own men and enemies alike in Braveheart. Nevertheless, it was a turning point in the battle so won't knock Tyrion too much for this.

- Strangles Shae for..? being a whore? Or maybe because her testimony humiliated him at his trial? Who knows what pressure she was under to give that evidence. But the little man's pride was hurt, so he murderered her. Okay then...

- Murders his father in cold blood. Tyrion shoots an unarmed man in the gut because Tywin was a cruel father that has wronged him many times. There's no justification in murdering someone because they're horrible and you want revenge.

No doubt i've omitted a few events from both characters. Anyway, seems to me that Tyrion is the male Lannister in dire need of redemption. I think a lot has to do with first impressions. In aGoT our opinions of Jaime are severely dented by the act with Bran, and the fact that our hero Ned shows such open disdain for him. Whereas with Tyrion we have his POV and he seems quite likeable. Yet while I personally quite like both characters, I think Tyrion is the far more sinister of the two and appears to be getting more ruthless from book to book while Jaime is moving in the opposite direction.

[spitsphyre]

I think the difference is that Tyrion's crimes seem more human and relatable (crimes of passion and the like) whereas Jamie crosses some SERIOUS deep-rooted taboos. You DON'T kill children (in writing you are taught that people will always sympathize with the innocent even if we don't know them well so your back guy should "kick the cat" and the good guy should "pet the cat." Essentially, your bad guy does thoughtless cruelty to animals and children, your good guy does thoughtless niceness to animals and children) and whether or not "incest is not your thing" it is so deeply ingrained in nature that sibling and parent/child incest is wrong that in a health species with the ability to move as they are supposed to, offspring are always booted from the pack or sent away (this has been bred out of some domesticated animals and it's not always the case with endangered or unhealthy groups of wild animals.)

Cousin incest doesn't have all the problems but every culture, ever studied has issues with parents having sex with their children (grown or not) and siblings having sex with one another. (There are some interesting studies done on people who find biological family unawares but I digress) The point is that these are HUGE things to people that aren't easy to over come. They are major flaws that generally point to something being wrong with him. It's not that surprising to me.

I'm not saying Tyrion is a character who is pure as the shining snow, I just understand why people would favor the funny, clever underdog over the bright, shining incestuous attempted-child-killer.

[tarantella]

So Jaime throwing Bran from a tower to protect the sister he loves like a wife is understandable, but Tyrion shooting Tywin on the chamber pot after being thrown in a dungeon and getting thoroughly ignored by him, after a lifetime of getting treated like crap by him, isn't?

I mean, they're both evil acts. Tyrion's murder Shae and that singer are pretty unjustifiable to me, and even of Tywin (horrible man, but he was his father in any case.) On the other hand, I think all the measures he took in King's Landing were easily justifiable to secure the city against attack and smash Stannis' fleet. Tyrion always seemed most interested in saving his own hide, but he also saved a lot of other people in the process assuming the city would have been sacked otherwise.

I do think Jaime is still in serious need of some more redemption, but he's making progress. Tyrion is going in the other direction sadly.

As for the whole Vale thing, what makes the hill tribes any worse than anyone else? That whole debacle is on Lysa and her vassals in my opinion. And if I were in Tyrion's position there, I'd do exactly the same.

[Millardkillmoore]

From reading this forum it's become apparent that generally speaking, both Tyrion and Jaime are 2 of the more popular characters in the series. I also keep reading about Jaime's "redemption" and this quite annoys me since to me, Tyrion seems the far more sinister of the two.

What has Jaime done that was so bad that he's in need of this redemption? (this is just off the top of my head having reread the series last month)

- Broke his sworn oath when he killed the mad King Aerys. An act that saved hundreds, if not thousands of lives and freed the realm of a terrible ruler. He's slated for this because it's "dishonourable", yet Ned frequently gets lambasted on these boards for being so stubborn in his honour. This act has followed him around negatively ever since.

- His relationship with Cersei. Incest isn't my thing, but he does think he loves her. Added to that she's married to a drunken abusive man i'm not going to knock him for covetting his neighbour's wife.

- Throwing Bran from the tower. Okay this is bad, almost certainly his worst act. Yet, in doing so he was protecting his sister and the woman he loves. Had he not, both their heads would've probably been lopped off. He didn't have much time to think it through and probably chose poorly.

- Attacked Ned and had Jory killed. IMO quite understandable. Ex-Hand Ned is outnumbered in a confrontation situation.. so what does he say? Why, that Tyrion was arrested under his orders of course. Smart move Ned.

- Led the assault and siege of Riverun. Well it IS war, so this can't really be deemed as an affront on Jaime's character since he's acting in the interest of his house.

I actually think you're right on most points about Tyrion. He really isn't such a great guy. However, you're whitewashing Jaime a bit.

-He did swear a sacred oath and then violate it in the most extreme way possible. He didn't just fail to protect the king, he murdered him. Add in that Tywin's army was sacking KL and it looks to most people in the series that murdering the king was entirely self-serving. To most, it will look like killing his king just to prove his loyalty to his family. I actually agree that killing Aerys was the right thing to do. But it doesn't look that way to anyone who didn't know what the Mad King planned to do.

-This is, in my opinion, his most monstrous act. First, it is treason. Second, he knew that banging his sister and fathering her children could create a succession crisis. He did it anyway. His selfishness created illegitimate heirs that were the primary cause of the war. He is just as responsible for starting a long and bloody war where countless innocents were killed as LF.

-Trying to murder children to save your own ass is evil.

-Then punish Ned. His guards were innocent of any wrong-doing. Jaime had them murdered in cold-blood.

-Err... what did Riverrun do to him or his family? The Lannisters started attacking the Riverlands in response to Catelyn STARK's actions. Suddenly it's okay to murder her brother's smallfolk and besiege his castle for that? They didn't kidnap Tyrion.

Jaime is a monster. If he had any shred of honor, he would've admitted his treason to Robert. It might've stopped the Lannister-Stark conflict before it spiraled out of control and perhaps saved countless lives. But he never did that. He didn't even consider that, because he's evil. He has a lot to answer for and hasn't even come close to redeeming himself.

[MrDoog]

So Jaime throwing Bran from a tower to protect the sister he loves like a wife is understandable, but Tyrion shooting Tywin on the chamber pot after being thrown in a dungeon and getting thoroughly ignored by him, after a lifetime of getting treated like crap by him, isn't?

Jaime throwing Bran from the tower isn't really understandable, but you can at least see that it would mean protecting the life of another. Whereas Jaime's throwing Bran is a poor snap decision, Tyrion's cold blooded murder of his father is a premeditated act. It's also a self-indulgent act of revenge that serves nobody but himself.

[Été]

When we first meet Jaime, he doesn't give a crap about anyone but himself - not even his own kids. He decides to uphold his vow to Catelyn not out of honour but because it would amusingly out-of-character to fulfill a promise. The public perception of Jaime in Westeros is of an oathbreaker, a traitor, and a member of the privileged dynasty that's helping tear the country apart. He's not really painted as a good guy.

Tyrion, meanwhile, is an underdog from the start. He's likeable because he's witty and clever, he's the only one to call Joffrey on his sadistic bullshit, and he generally seems to do what he thinks is the right thing.

I'm afraid I think your point about the hill tribes is pretty weak: he's just spent weeks being dragged around Westeros as a hostage accused of a crime he didn't commit, and escaped with his life by the skin of his teeth. No doubt the welfare of Sweetrobin's smallfolk was at the forefront of his mind! Surrounded by spears, what would you have done?

As for the Blackwater, I view him as a hero for that one. The boom chain was a clever stroke and the wildfire an extreme but effective weapon. There's never any mention of intentionally burning his own men - in fact, he gets them to practice firing empty pots to avoid just that. (Also, Edward Longshanks was an absolute legend, whatever Braveheart says!)

Tyrion's entire relationship with Shae, however, is incredibly messed-up psychologically. . The whole episode with the singer is really dark, it's murderous jealousy. I think he was trying to protect her by bringing her to the Red Keep as it's the only place in the country where he could be sure of her safety. In the end he murdered her for lying about him to the court, publicly humiliating him, and probably breaking his heart as well. Tywin helped frame Tyrion, adding insult to a lifetime of injury, and then shagging his bird. It's Tyrion's darkest hour: he's just found out the truth about Tysha and is out for blood. It's not quite a killing in cold blood.

[spitsphyre]

When we first meet Jaime, he doesn't give a crap about anyone but himself

THIS. Such a big thing people completely discount.

he's just spent weeks being dragged around Westeros as a hostage accused of a crime he didn't commit, and escaped with his life by the skin of his teeth. No doubt the welfare of Sweetrobin's smallfolk was at the forefront of his mind!

Lysa sent them out with the intention that they were going to die as well. He knew, it Bron knew it, Catelyn knew it. They were sure the tribes were going to kill them.

[tarantella]

Jaime throwing Bran from the tower isn't really understandable, but you can at least see that it would mean protecting the life of another. Whereas Jaime's throwing Bran is a poor snap decision, Tyrion's cold blooded murder of his father is a premeditated act. It's also a self-indulgent act of revenge that serves nobody but himself.

It seemed pretty hot-blooded to me. Jaime had just told him the truth about Tysha, and Tywin kept calling her a whore when Tyrion confronted him. So yeah. Not justifiable, but I think it's pretty understandable why Tyrion did it.

[MrDoog]

I actually think you're right on most points about Tyrion. He really isn't such a great guy. However, you're whitewashing Jaime a bit.

-He did swear a sacred oath and then violate it in the most extreme way possible. He didn't just fail to protect the king, he murdered him. Add in that Tywin's army was sacking KL and it looks to most people in the series that murdering the king was entirely self-serving. To most, it will look like killing his king just to prove his loyalty to his family. I actually agree that killing Aerys was the right thing to do. But it doesn't look that way to anyone who didn't know what the Mad King planned to do.

Well, we have the benefit of having the facts at hand, so to my mind he need not be excused for this. Would letting hundreds die at the bequest of a mad King been more honourable? Not in my opinion

-This is, in my opinion, his most monstrous act. First, it is treason. Second, he knew that banging his sister and fathering her children could create a succession crisis. He did it anyway. His selfishness created illegitimate heirs that were the primary cause of the war. He is just as responsible for starting a long and bloody war where countless innocents were killed as LF.

Can't argue with that really.

-Trying to murder children to save your own ass is evil.

Agreed, but again, he was also saving the woman he loved

-Then punish Ned. His guards were innocent of any wrong-doing. Jaime had them murdered in cold-blood.

Well, Ned evaluating the situation DID decide to blurt out that it was his decision to arrest Tyrion.. what did he expect? that Jaime and his lackies would say Okay fair enough and go on their merry way?

-Err... what did Riverrun do to him or his family? The Lannisters started attacking the Riverlands in response to Catelyn STARK's actions. Suddenly it's okay to murder her brother's smallfolk and besiege his castle for that? They didn't kidnap Tyrion.

Let's be clear, it was Tywin's army. Jaime was only commanding part of it. As for murdering smallfolk - that's simply just part of war and something that the Northmen are equally guilty of

Jaime is a monster. If he had any shred of honor, he would've admitted his treason to Robert. It might've stopped the Lannister-Stark conflict before it spiraled out of control and perhaps saved countless lives. But he never did that. He didn't even consider that, because he's evil. He has a lot to answer for and hasn't even come close to redeeming himself.

Are you Ned Stark in disguise?! Admitted his treason to a drunken oaf of a King who he has nothing but contempt for because it's the honourable thing to do?! Please. IMO that's Jaime being selfish, not evil

[Misanthrope]

Jaime was never redeemed, he is still the same loathsome wretch he has always been. Fortunately for his enemies, he is far too daft to ever be a real threat to anyone.

[Millardkillmoore]

I believe that choosing to do something that you know will bring harm to innocents because it benefits you is a pretty good definition of evil.

[Xenophon]

Now onto Tyrion's deeds..

1) - Not going to knock him for his penchant for whores and sexual deviances, whatever floats the man's boat.

2) - Promises the Vale to complete savages. Why? Because he was arrested? Psshh. He's hardly the first man to be wrongfully accused of something and at the time, there was evidence(false)against him. Anyway, peculiar Westeros law found him "not guilty" so he goes free.... Only to promise the vale to Hill tribes who would no doubt be of immense beneft of the Vale's smallfolk. I'm sure the the goats would appreciate someone like Shagga ruling since they'd be feasting on testicles constantly but I somehow doubt any rational person would. Tyrion makes this promise to save his own skin because possibly since he's bitter about being accosted by Caetlyn under the King's law. He then goes on to arm and pay them to the point where the tribes are now a decent force. But events concerning Robb, Renly and Stannis mean we never know if Tyrion would've made good on his promise.

3) - He orders Bronn to murder a singer and make him into a bloody stew! This is just depraved. His motive? The singer might, well, start singing a tale and then the little man wouldn't be getting regular sex anymore. Bless.

4) - Rather than move Shae somewhere safe prior to the battle of King's Landing, he rather insists she come with him, putting her in enormous danger. No doubt a pretty girl like that would've been unmercilessly gangraped had Stannis' army won the day. Tyrion's motive? Why because the man didn't feel like going a few weeks without sex and he's beginning to fool himself into thinking this is something other than a business arrangement.

5) - During the battle on the Blackwater he commands to essentially set the whole battlefield aflame with wildfire. A pretty good move that smashes Stannis' fleet, but pretty bloody ruthless too. Wildfire is surely the most horrible way to die and yet he pours this stuff indiscriminantly, killing a lot of his own men in the process. Reminded me of Longshanks' archers firing on his own men and enemies alike in Braveheart. Nevertheless, it was a turning point in the battle so won't knock Tyrion too much for this.

6) - Strangles Shae for..? being a whore? Or maybe because her testimony humiliated him at his trial? Who knows what pressure she was under to give that evidence. But the little man's pride was hurt, so he murderered her. Okay then...

7) - Murders his father in cold blood. Tyrion shoots an unarmed man in the gut because Tywin was a cruel father that has wronged him many times. There's no justification in murdering someone because they're horrible and you want revenge.

I pretty much agree with you about Jaime. I think Été has it right though--people talk about Jaime's redemption because he was initially presented as a villain, whereas Tyrion has always been presented sympathetically.

Re. Tyrion, I agree with you on points 1, 2, and 6. 4 is complicated, with whole threads parsing out blame, so I'll leave it aside. Where I disagree is:

3) The singer was threatening to blackmail him, and he risked losing the position of Hand over it. It's still murder, but it's not like he just killed the guy for sex.

5) I wouldn't knock him at all. War is hell. And getting raped and killed had Stannis' army sacked KL wouldn't have been too pleasant either. Thousands were going to die one way or another.

7) Depends on how you see his action. Was it revenge or murdering an enemy (since his father was his enemy at that point). Again, he's clearly a killer who feels little remorse, but I think you may be underestimating the reasons he had to kill.

[starki]

Tyrion is no angel, and he's probably doomed in one way of another after murdering his father and Shae, but the man had at least some princinples. He stood up to Joffrey reguarly, as well as Cersei. And I can't truly hate him ever since his finest hour, IMO, his "marriage" with Sansa. And call him a fool if you want for being with Shae, but he treated her well. He singlehandedly saves KL when he burns Stannis' ships, yet no one gives him credit.

Jaime, his finest hour is the removal, sadly by murder, of a brutal and mad ruler. Even in a democracy, you can dispose of a unfit ruler. He has Ned's men killed, and attempts to murder Bran. Oh yes, his closest match to a romantic relationship is ... his own sister. He compares all other women - when he's not busy putting them down like Brienne - to her. Though I will say I appreciate his character evolving in AFFC, and nicely done with giving the sword to Brienne.

So when we compare murders : innocent child vs a dominant, cruel father and the woman you love sentencing you to your death, then getting in bed with your father...no, I don't think Tyrion is the worse of the two. And Jamie helped in the Tysha "whore" lie...

[Vuron]

I have to pretty much disagree with everything below.

-He did swear a sacred oath and then violate it in the most extreme way possible. He didn't just fail to protect the king, he murdered him. Add in that Tywin's army was sacking KL and it looks to most people in the series that murdering the king was entirely self-serving. To most, it will look like killing his king just to prove his loyalty to his family. I actually agree that killing Aerys was the right thing to do. But it doesn't look that way to anyone who didn't know what the Mad King planned to do.

One of the most unselfish acts in the entire series. Yes, he broke an oath, and never explained why. He has been hated, ridiculed, and looked down on and never tried to explain why he did it just to make himself look better.

-This is, in my opinion, his most monstrous act. First, it is treason. Second, he knew that banging his sister and fathering her children could create a succession crisis. He did it anyway. His selfishness created illegitimate heirs that were the primary cause of the war. He is just as responsible for starting a long and bloody war where countless innocents were killed as LF.

He and his sister were in love and having sex long before she was married. If someone you love is forced to marry a drunk, cheating, wife-beating ass, do you stop loving them just because it may screw up someon's plan of succession?

-Trying to murder children to save your own ass is evil.

He saved his own life, the life of his sister/lover, the lives of his children, and possible prevented a war. I'm pretty sure Tywin wouldn't have just sat back and watched as all his family was executed.

-Then punish Ned. His guards were innocent of any wrong-doing. Jaime had them murdered in cold-blood.

Ned's family had unjustly taken his brother captive. He wanted to capture Ned alive and there was going to be know way to do that without someone dying.

-Err... what did Riverrun do to him or his family? The Lannisters started attacking the Riverlands in response to Catelyn STARK's actions. Suddenly it's okay to murder her brother's smallfolk and besiege his castle for that? They didn't kidnap Tyrion.

Can't really argue with this, although Tywin gets the blame for this over Jaime. He's not going to stand up to his father.

Jaime is a monster. If he had any shred of honor, he would've admitted his treason to Robert. It might've stopped the Lannister-Stark conflict before it spiraled out of control and perhaps saved countless lives. But he never did that. He didn't even consider that, because he's evil. He has a lot to answer for and hasn't even come close to redeeming himself.

I feel the opposite.

[spitsphyre]

I think OP might be missing the point that none of the characters in these books are "good people" we can all embrace without reservation...

[TheFrenchFish]

Jaime is not redeemed. I believe he is trying to "redeem" his past actions and come to terms with his life and perhaps right some wrongs. He may very well fail to measure up or go back to his old self even. Like spitsphyre said above, the fact that he's come along way from just caring about himself and Cersei is an amazing transformation. Granted, it probably would not have occurred without him losing his sword hand but never the less!

You are right to say Tyrion has done some quite sinister deeds himself but to compare the two is rather difficult in regards to "redemption", at least for me it is. Time will tell how their stories end but it's no coincidence that the two are fascinating reads and characters.

[Knight of the Laurel]

Oh, they're both complete bastards, but amusing and sympathetic bastards. If you could visit Westeros, I'd love to have a beer with Tyrion or talk about fighting with Jamie. And they have just enough redeeming features, enough residual humanity, that you can root for them.

[MrDoog]

I think OP might be missing the point that none of the characters in these books are "good people" we can all embrace without reservation...

I do believe that you've missed the point, and quite spectacularly. Nobody's saying these are good people, but rather comparing their shades of grey. The OP was exploring why it is that Tyrion's reputation/notoriety is often seen in a far more favourable light than his brother. When comparing their deeds, it's my opinion that Tyrion is in much greater need of redemption than Jaime. That's not me saying either of them nor any of the characters are "good people"

[Millardkillmoore]

One of the most unselfish acts in the entire series. Yes, he broke an oath, and never explained why. He has been hated, ridiculed, and looked down on and never tried to explain why he did it just to make himself look better.

He and his sister were in love and having sex long before she was married. If someone you love is forced to marry a drunk, cheating, wife-beating ass, do you stop loving them just because it may screw up someon's plan of succession?

He saved his own life, the life of his sister/lover, the lives of his children, and possible prevented a war. I'm pretty sure Tywin wouldn't have just sat back and watched as all his family was executed.

Ned's family had unjustly taken his brother captive. He wanted to capture Ned alive and there was going to be know way to do that without someone dying.

1) I agree. His finest hour. The closest he ever came to being a hero and not a villain. Unfortunately, it's all downhill from there.

2)Nobody said he couldn't love his sister. He shouldn't be sleeping with her and then covering up that her children aren't the king's. He knew it could lead to a succession crisis which could lead to war. He knew innocent people would die. He should've admitted his crimes to hopefully prevent as much suffering and bloodshed as possible. He should've done so to defend the innocent, as a knight is supposed to do. Most importantly, he should have kept it in his pants.

3)Once more, murdering a child is not the right way to do that. He could've tried to scare Bran into not talking. He could've fled Westeros with Cersei and her children. It would have been cowardly, but it wouldn't have been as bad as trying to murder a child.

4)Wrong. He wanted to chastise Ned, not capture him. That's why he left Ned cradling Jory's body instead of taking him prisoner. He could have chastised Ned with words. He chose to do so by spilling blood.

[em388480]

- Strangles Shae for..? being a whore? Or maybe because her testimony humiliated him at his trial? Who knows what pressure she was under to give that evidence. But the little man's pride was hurt, so he murderered her. Okay then...

- Murders his father in cold blood. Tyrion shoots an unarmed man in the gut because Tywin was a cruel father that has wronged him many times. There's no justification in murdering someone because they're horrible and you want revenge.

He strangles Shae for betraying him, although he was wrong to have trusted her in the first place. Totally makes sense to me that, regardless of pressure to squeal, she should not have said a word about the situation.

And as far as murdering a parent who has mentally abused him for his entire existence - seems totally ok to me. While not socially acceptable or legal, I have no moral qualms with it. There is tons of justification in murdering someone who is horrible because you want revenge. Rather than going to his son and asking if he had any part in the murder, he passed sentence (guilty) on him just because of his appearance. If your own parent is that hateful towards you, it really warps one's relationship with them.