[BOOK/TV SPOILERS] Shae

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

As book readers we know there isn't anything particularly significant about Shae's background. She's a camp follower, and since she died, there is no reason to think that any significance in her background is important.

But the show seems to make something of her background, almost implying she had highborn parents. So what do you think they're trying to do with her?

One crackpot theory I came up with is that Shae is actually going to be the amalgam of several of Robert's bastard daughters. That's she's Mya Stone and Bella and somebody else combined into one character.

Anyone else want to venture a guess?

[The Anti-Targ]

She works as simple one note window-dressing in the books but on screen she would be bland and dull. So they needed to spice up the character a little bit if she's going to be Tyrion's lust interest for the next (possibly) 2 seasons.

Besides, don't you know she's immune to fire and her name has the "ae" thing in it so she MUST be a Targ. :laugh:

[Podrick + Arya = Win]

R+L=S :fencing:

[Landless Knight]

Hard to say whether it means anything beyond HBO's liking for actresses who remove their blouses. We're going to be seeing a lot (literally) of Shae next season, and maybe the Creators wanted to add an extra dimension. HBO need to fill their boob quota, but making Shae a woman of mystery enriches her relationship with Tyrion.

[JakePT]

I think the mystery is being used as a sort of way for making her more attractive on a different level with Tyrion. As seen in the last episode, Tyrion considers himself a good judge of character, and having her be a mystery to him will be part of the attraction. though I wouldn't be surprised if some of it was just a way to sort of explain why she has a different accent.

[Greywolf2375]

I think the mystery is being used as a sort of way for making her more attractive on a different level with Tyrion. As seen in the last episode, Tyrion considers himself a good judge of character, and having her be a mystery to him will be part of the attraction. though I wouldn't be surprised if some of it was just a way to sort of explain why she has a different accent.

you could be right, what I'd enjoyed about Shae was that fact that in the books she was "just a whore" - no particular background, no famous ancestors, just like Tysha.

Making her more than that may take away the fascination she had with wanting to bring her silks and jewels, to be in the ToH with Tyrion.

[Brienne the Beauty]

Making her more than that may take away the fascination she had with wanting to bring her silks and jewels, to be in the ToH with Tyrion.

Or it could make it deeper, if she sees her nice things as a reclaimed birthright.

Also, if she's some bastard/disinherited daughter of nobility, it is not so unreasonable that Tyrion might marry her...

[gogorath]

I'm surprised to not see more discussion on Show-Shae, who seems like the largest character departure to date. I'm reserving judgement until I understand what the heck they are doing with her, but I have to admit there's a path they look like they are taking which I would really dislike.

The Good: Shae is more confident, more mature, and seemingly smarter (merely through the confidence and the wording of response) than Book-Shae. I like this change. While I have some intelligent, successful male friends or acquaintances who have married women who are a little more subservient, not as intelligent, etc., most of them want to be challenged, want to be around women who don't immediately do as they say and can hang with their thought processes. I know this is a modern concept -- I don't care -- Tyrion is a very modern man and it fits with his personality.

If Tyrion were merely looking for sex, he'd switch women. In Shae, and he alternately admits this and then ignores it, he really is looking for acceptance, companionship and love, on some level. His character seems much more likely to find it in Show-Shae than Book-Shae, who I figure he'd have left out of boredom long before (though again, maybe he's one of those other guys).

The I Don't Know Yet: So what's up with the mystery? If Show-Shae is merely not talking about her past because this is her work face; this is a job, I am estatic. One of the best parts of Tyrion's storyline in the books is that he is delusional about Shae. She (most likely) never loves him. It's a job. She goes "home" and takes off her mask. She's paid to be really nice to him, and that seems to be more or less it. And while I haven't met any prostitutes in my life (that I know of), I have known people who have "danced" for money, and that's their thing -- they make up stories and names and it's a face.

So if that's it, great. It preserves that weakness of Tyrion's that is one of the things that makes him human.

But it doesn't seem like it, right? The mystery, the flame, the accent... I get that they want to flesh out her character, but if she ends up being noble, or a plant of Tywin's (could be okay), or having any connection beyond being a camp follower, it's another Ros. Not everyone has to be part of an intricate scheme. If D&D want to flesh out a prostitute, let's stop with the unrealistic and go with the realistic -- she has no other way to make money and so she does this.

I generally don't mind adaptive tampering, but Shae having a "secret" past starts moving ASOIF closer to "junk" fantasy. Junk fantasy has princesses or nobles or spies posing as whores. ASOIF has camp followers who are actual characters.

[Nebiros]

Besides, don't you know she's immune to fire and her name has the "ae" thing in it so she MUST be a Targ. :laugh:

Yeah, totally makes sense. You know why? Because she's Princess Rhaenys, that's why. Hold on a second before you laugh, I have reasons. I think the age fits roughly. In the book Dany is 14 or so. I don't recall exactly what age Shae claims to be or if she even has given an age, but I think in the book she's pretty young. Maybe 18, 19? Rhaenys should be a couple of years older than Dany, given that Dany was born at the end of the rebellion and Rhaenys had been "a young girl" at that time.

Moreover, I think it's been mentioned a couple of times that the fact that little Aegon is dead is far from certain (and Martin has been dodgy on the issue). So if we doubt our fine mountain killed one of the two kids, he might as well have faked the whole act, right?

Man, I've almost convinced myself at this point... :drunk:

[Nebiros]

The I Don't Know Yet: So what's up with the mystery? If Show-Shae is merely not talking about her past because this is her work face; this is a job, I am estatic. One of the best parts of Tyrion's storyline in the books is that he is delusional about Shae. She (most likely) never loves him. It's a job. She goes "home" and takes off her mask. She's paid to be really nice to him, and that seems to be more or less it. And while I haven't met any prostitutes in my life (that I know of), I have known people who have "danced" for money, and that's their thing -- they make up stories and names and it's a face.

So if that's it, great. It preserves that weakness of Tyrion's that is one of the things that makes him human.

I have been very unimpressed with the "Shae-change" for this reason (or a very similar reason, I can't judge at the moment if we're thinking the same way or not). The thing is: Tyrion is very delusional in the book and has some serious bonding issues with women, resulting from his traumatic Tysha experience. For me, having a strong, intelligent, fascinating and whatnot Shae character (like the show Shae) takes away a lot of the impact. I found it pretty sad (and of course fascinating at the same time) that Tyrion is, in fact, so damaged as to project whatever he wants into a terribly common woman, and a whore at that. I always imagined "his" dream Shae to be a total fabrication, especially because I imagined book Shae to be a rather dull (maybe good looking, but dull anyway) character.

Now what happens if we make Shae a much more interesting character? Suddenly Tyrion's budding fascination and love becomes something much more tangible, even reasonable depending on how far the show producers go with it. It's a change I really don't like, because it makes Tyrion so much less tragic.

[gogorath]

Agree, Nebiros.

Thought I think where we may differ is I could live with that as long as a) Shae is still just a prostitute and not something ridiculous and B) it is 100% a job for her and all affection towards Tyrion is part of her job.

[Landless Knight]

The change in Shae's nature may owe more to Tyrion (the more important character) than Shae herself.

In the book Tyrion is pathetic in his love for a common whore who feels nothing for him. The tv people may fear that making Tyrion an object of pity would prove a turn-off for viewers. A pathetic dwarf for a 'hero' might be a bridge too far.

By making Shae more interesting, viewers will sympathise with Tyrion's interest in her, and feel betrayed themselves, when she betrays him.

[gogorath]

It may be pathetic, but I'm willing to bet a good number of male posters on this board have completely deluded themselves over a girl they were dating. We all have blinders in these situations; there's a reason for the crazy-hot scale.

And on the female side, there's a book and a movie about women who love men that care little for them.

In other words, there's a lot of talk that it is "pathetic." Maybe, maybe not. But it's common and relateable.

Of course, you may be right -- that may have been D&Ds motivation.

[Lion of Venice]

The change in Shae's nature may owe more to Tyrion (the more important character) than Shae herself.

In the book Tyrion is pathetic in his love for a common whore who feels nothing for him. The tv people may fear that making Tyrion an object of pity would prove a turn-off for viewers. A pathetic dwarf for a 'hero' might be a bridge too far.

By making Shae more interesting, viewers will sympathise with Tyrion's interest in her, and feel betrayed themselves, when she betrays him.

That would be true if the TV show Tyrion was portrayed as being more heroic than in the book, but aside from his aspect, which is less deformed then in the book, he is portrayed more inept at anything else then chatting (trampled by his own soldiers, anyone?).

I think the changes to Shae's characters are made for a more simple reason: they have given considerable screen time to Roz and they fear that book Shae could be too close to TV Roz character, so they change Shae to be different from every other whore that we've seen so far, so that the viewers can identify her as a main character from the beginning and actually take note of her interactions with Tyrion instead of thinking that it's just more sexposition.

At least, this is my idea on the matter.

[Lasair]

I think the changes to Shae's characters are made for a more simple reason: they have given considerable screen time to Roz and they fear that book Shae could be too close to TV Roz character, so they change Shae to be different from every other whore that we've seen so far, so that the viewers can identify her as a main character from the beginning and actually take note of her interactions with Tyrion instead of thinking that it's just more sexposition.

At least, this is my idea on the matter.

Agree 100%.

And I'm glad about it. Shae from the books is very annoying.

[spitsphyre]

I think the changes to Shae's characters are made for a more simple reason: they have given considerable screen time to Roz and they fear that book Shae could be too close to TV Roz character

That is EXACTLY what I think. I also think they made show-Shae a combination of Alyaya and her mother with the name Shae. I doubt that they're going to make another brothel for Tyrion to visit.

My problem with the change?

Tyrion being kind to, even falling for, a prostitute who is so much lower than he was (a girl who we eventually understand worked in someone's kitchen and was raped by her father) says a lot about his character. Him treating a woman who is so smart, mature, educated, and obviously self-confident who has not really had such a difficult life seems less momentous a reveal...

[Landless Knight]

That would be true if the TV show Tyrion was portrayed as being more heroic than in the book, but aside from his aspect, which is less deformed then in the book, he is portrayed more inept at anything else then chatting (trampled by his own soldiers, anyone?).

I think the changes to Shae's characters are made for a more simple reason: they have given considerable screen time to Roz and they fear that book Shae could be too close to TV Roz character, so they change Shae to be different from every other whore that we've seen so far, so that the viewers can identify her as a main character from the beginning and actually take note of her interactions with Tyrion instead of thinking that it's just more sexposition.

At least, this is my idea on the matter.

But Shae is much more important than Roz. Despite not appearing until episode nine, her character must have been created first. Roz is not in the book, and is surely an afterthought, shoehorned in for boobs, continuity and exposition.

I agree that D&D wanted Shae to be more than a common prostitute, but I believe they would have wanted that if Roz had never existed. The Shae/Tyrion relationship is important, and was probably worked out before Roz was even conceived.

You could be right, of course. D&D might might initially have scripted Shae closer to the book character, and, as the story developed, become conscious of the need to differentiate her from the other whores.

[spitsphyre]

But Shae is much more important than Roz. Despite not appearing until episode nine, her character must have been created first. Roz is not in the book, and is surely an afterthought, shoehorned in for boobs, continuity and exposition.

Roz was added to the pilot before the show was green lit (she was Red Haired Whore, I shit you not) and I am guessing that she was based off of Shae.

After the show WAS green lit they left the character in because, really, until we get to Shae there really isn't that much gratuitous nudity (there WAS nudity, but not the kind they wanted)

I will lay money on the fact that Chataya and Alayaya won't be in the show. So the easy solution was to make Shae reflect that... Even if it changes things.

The other 9 scripts wouldn't have been written at the time the pilot was created because, well, you would have to pay for those and I doubt they had the season bible fleshed out at that point either...

[Landless Knight]

Roz was added to the pilot before the show was green lit (she was Red Haired Whore, I shit you not) and I am guessing that she was based off of Shae.

After the show WAS green lit they left the character in because, really, until we get to Shae there really isn't that much gratuitous nudity (there WAS nudity, but not the kind they wanted)

I will lay money on the fact that Chataya and Alayaya won't be in the show. So the easy solution was to make Shae reflect that... Even if it changes things.

The other 9 scripts wouldn't have been written at the time the pilot was created because, well, you would have to pay for those and I doubt they had the season bible fleshed out at that point either...

I'm not in the industry, so I just assumed that, once the show was green lit, before beginning to shoot, they'd have written at least a rough draft of the entire season. If they hadn't firmed up show-Shae's character, then what you say is very likely.

[MojoJojo]

The actress would be much better as Melisandra. Shae might not be a powerful character, but such a secretive woman does not engender the sort of trust necessary to fall in love. Tyrion must lose his head, and it looks like the route HBO is going to take is to make Shae into an exotic Bravosi consort, who seduces him into infatuation. I would not find shocking at all for this Shae to betray Tyrion, and it would generate no deeper sympathy or emotional response. Besides, Shae is one of the few commoners in the story. We need to see some of common Westeros for things to be believable.