Ser Vlad Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 Two nitpicks: (1) Tywin did not order the death of Elia - he said nothing about her at all, and Clegane killed her beacuse Tywin did not specify he wanted her alive. (2) Dorne did not join Tywin because of his maneuvering, but rather because of Tyrion's perceptiveness in marrying off Myrcella. And Tywin had to, from a political standpoint, kill the children - although he kept himself appart from the war, he was still Aerys's former hand and the second most influencial man in the Targayrien dynasty in modern memory. For the rebellion to accept his betrayal, he had to offer proof of his conversion: that proof was the death of Aerys's heirs. Not honourable or heroic, but rather realpolitik at its best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingslayer Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 Robert would be in a dangerous position to have simply turned imeadiatly or years later to actually attack House Lannister. Of course, but he had four of the Great Houses behind him (five if Tyrell joined him). Anyway, this is hijacking the thread (which, as Itm pointed out, was created precisely to avoid this kind of thing), so I'll cease and desist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centrist Simon Steele Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 What is there to like? If she had stayed in the kitchen then none of her children would have died. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ Dawn Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 What is there to like? If she had stayed in the kitchen then none of her children would have died. Fantastic! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarkDesolation Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 On the original subject of Catelyn. She's one of the chief causes of the books' strife... Who pleaded Ned to head down to King's Landing? Who left Winterfell (Her crippled son and confused youngest) with its pants down? Who provoked the Lannisters? Which led to the increase of tensions in King's Landing, the Arming of the Mountain Tribes and most importantly Tywin's fiery march through the Riverlands which probably have the most horrible afteraffects on innocent people through the entire book. Now as some sort of Undead Warlord she's now an active participant in some of the Song's greatest attrocities along the Trident. Until the Others show up south of the Wall... Catelyn Stark was the most devastating thing to happen to Westeros since Robert's Rebellion at the very least... Sure she's just an innocent Mother who has lost so much and was just trying to give from her heart excellent counsel and woman's intuition that fell deaf upon the ears of those foolish enough to dismiss her as 'just a woman'... By that same token Gavrilo Princip was just a young man who wanted to fit in with his peers. While pop culture seems to have forgotten him, history and the events that followed and the people that were affected by his actions show otherwise. Sympathise with her all you want but if you do not grasp that her selfish concern for a few* Jeopardized and caused the suffering of a great many more then while you might have a soul... I question your possesion of a grasp of the events here. If anyone deserved a stance of ambivalence (love in some regards and held in absolute scorn and contempt in others)... It's Catelyn Stark. *-The few being her family... and even they get hierarchied... First Bran was more important and then Robb was more important, then her daughters were more important... Dying Lord Hoster figures in there too. Rickon and Ned essentially got consistently screwed out of the whole deal... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Vlad Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 Ah, and now I have to stand up to bat and defend Catelyn like a good little boy - not that I have anything against those who dislike her, but I dislike unfair and unjust accusations. Who pleaded Ned to head down to King's Landing? Who left Winterfell (Her crippled son and confused youngest) with its pants down? Eddard Stark made up his own mind to head to King's Landing, although Catelyn strongly believed he should, and did so not only after Lady Lysa's letter arrived, but after Master Luwin also counseled him to go. As for leaving Winterfel - she had to. Who else could go and warn Ned about the Lannister attempt on their son, which given the context of the situation was a very real and very pertinent threat? Which led to the increase of tensions in King's Landing, the Arming of the Mountain Tribes and most importantly Tywin's fiery march through the Riverlands which probably have the most horrible afteraffects on innocent people through the entire book. Talk about your leaps - using your rather loose reasoning in terms of blame, we could drag the war all the way back to Cersei and Jaime for chosing to commit incest to begin with, or hell, to Aegon Targayrien for conquering the Seven Kingdom's and creating the political climate in the first place. The Mountain Tribes were armed because Tyrion armed them - that sin falls on his shoulders, although from a realpolitik standpoint it was a pretty astute move. As for the Riverlands, it's likely that Tywin planned that march long before Catelyn touched Tyrion. Quite an inspired debate in the other Catelyn thread on this very subject, coincidentally. ow as some sort of Undead Warlord she's now an active participant in some of the Song's greatest attrocities along the Trident. Warlord? She's barely got a band of robber outlaws, who tend to kill Freys and other soldiers who have had quite the hand in pillaging the riverlands clean. Certainly not an altruistic or noble goal of our dearly departed Catelyn, but an understanable one and certainly not something more evil than the Red Wedding which spawned Lady Stoneheart. Until the Others show up south of the Wall... Catelyn Stark was the most devastating thing to happen to Westeros since Robert's Rebellion at the very least... Hyperbole much? Tensions existed in Westeros long before Catelyn Stark had a hand in the political scene - if anything, Petyr Baelish is the greatest threat to Westerosi peace outside of the Others. He did start the war, after all. By that same token Gavrilo Princip was just a young man who wanted to fit in with his peers. While pop culture seems to have forgotten him, history and the events that followed and the people that were affected by his actions show otherwise. So it's Princip's fault that WWI started? LOL. The whole of Europe was a powerkeg, and if Princip didn't make the thing blow up, something else would have. Everyone wanted war, everything was geared towards war, and the political allianced system gauranteed a very international conflict. WWI was a given by the time Princip killed Ferdinand - all he did was set the date. *-The few being her family... and even they get hierarchied... First Bran was more important and then Robb was more important, then her daughters were more important... Dying Lord Hoster figures in there too. Rickon and Ned essentially got consistently screwed out of the whole deal... Wait, you're telling me you don't prioritize which family member to help? You wouldn't help your sick grandmother with her shopping, for example, over helping your healthy father move a table? Cately was, if anything, the only character actually concerned with the human cost of Robb's war, and of the War of the Five King's itself. But sometimes people just don't like Catelyn, and those details get lost along the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dondarrion Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 Catelyn's a great character. And if GRRM didn't write her, we'd have no book. Her bad decisions lead to chaos and tragedy time and time again. So count me as anti-Catelyn. If/when this series is all said and done, if it doesn't finish as well as it started (though I'm optimistic it will), we'll probably view Catelyn's rise from the dead as the Jump the Shark moment. Sure, I empathize with her. You know, except when she's irrationally hating on Jon Snow. Sure, that scene where she took Tyrion prisoner was flat-out awesome. But pretty freakin' stupid, don't you think? (Particularly considering her awfully flimsy evidence against Tyrion, since proven false.) Sure, Ned gets to be Hand of the King. But if he had a bad feeling about it, if his pops and big bro got roasted and strangled down there, don't push him to go. Sure, Robb shouldn't have knocked up the Westerling chick. But damn, if you'd just nag him a little bit less about it, maybe nobody agrees to the Tully-Frey betrothal and the North army figures some other way to deal w/ the Twins. (Not that there was an easy other way, but who knows? They're clever. And maybe this is a cheap shot. ) Sure, she loves her kids and wants to protect them. But so does Cersei. Not a good enough reason for me to like her. (Heh. Ok. Cheap shot here. Catelyn's not evil. Just thought I'd mention it.) I mean, Catelyn was even there to watch Renly get stabbed. Dumb freakin' luck! Was running a good idea? (Eh, maybe. I don't know.) Look. She's a great character. A tragic character. I never liked her, but I never hated her. I often wanted to kill her myself. And then she died. A perfect tragic arc. Very sad. So poignant, even in all that violence. But no. No. She comes back. Like Michael Myers, the damn chick comes back. And wouldn't you know it, her decisions are worse than ever. WTF? --D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Vlad Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 Sure, that scene where she took Tyrion prisoner was flat-out awesome. But pretty freakin' stupid, don't you think? (Particularly considering her awfully flimsy evidence against Tyrion, since proven false.) Completely disagree - she knew that Tyrion was a guest in her household a few days before the attempt on Bran was made. Catelyn also "knew" that House Lannister had killed Jon Arryn, ostensibly out of ambition or to keep something hidden. Catelyn added 2+2 and realized that Bran did not simply fall - he saw something and was thrown. She further reasoned that the Lannisters wanted to keep this something hidden at all costs. She had the dagger from Baelish marking Tyrion as a murderer, and she had to prevent him from reaching King's Landing, which would have endangered Eddard Stark. Catelyn acted quite rationally, and the evidence against Tyrion that she had, from her perspective, was quite strong. Sure, Ned gets to be Hand of the King. But if he had a bad feeling about it, if his pops and big bro got roasted and strangled down there, don't push him to go. From a realpolitik standpoint, it was a good move. A Lady Macbeth-ish move, coincidentally, given the results. But it was also something that Luwin supported, and Eddard was also convinced by Lysa's letter. Sure, Robb shouldn't have knocked up the Westerling chick. But damn, if you'd just nag him a little bit less about it, maybe nobody agrees to the Tully-Frey betrothal and the North army figures some other way to deal w/ the Twins. (Not that there was an easy other way, but who knows? They're clever. And maybe this is a cheap shot. wink.gif ) Without the Twins, Robb is crushed by Tywin. He can't reach the Riverlands, and he's forced to either pull back to the moat or battle Tywin near the Twins. The Freys join Tywin at that point, and Robb is really in a pickle, to say the least. Sure, she loves her kids and wants to protect them. But so does Cersei. Not a good enough reason for me to like her. (Heh. Ok. Cheap shot here. Catelyn's not evil. Just thought I'd mention it.) And so did Eddard Stark. So does Tywin, for that matter. But no. No. She comes back. Like Michael Myers, the damn chick comes back. And wouldn't you know it, her decisions are worse than ever. In killing the Freys, who destroyed her house, killed her son...etc? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesatria Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 Sorry to threadjack, but I just wanted to add that it seems likely that the murder of Elia & her children will be what undoes everything that Tywin worked so hard to build. He never should've angered the Martells. BTW, I do believe he ordered her murder, although he denied it to Tyrion. It fits with other info we have, but that's another story. Anyway, so about Catelyn... I always agreed with her reasoning for convincing Ned to go to KL. It probably would've been taken as a slight had a he turned it down. Also, they just got Lysa's note about Jon Arryn's death. They are afraid that the Lannisters are up to something bad. Of course, in retrospect we know what really happened, but based on what info they had at the time, it makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingslayer Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 BTW, I do believe he ordered her murder, although he denied it to Tyrion. It fits with other info we have, but that's another story. He just admitted to ordering the murder of a baby and a toddler; why would he lie about Elia? To make himself look good? (That's my last post on Tywin... I hope ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scuba Steve Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 Yay, I have no soul! Seriously, for a while I absolutely despised Catelyn. While the hatred has gone down, I still can't really stand her. I don't really have a particular reason, something about her character just makes me want to punch a baby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Brendan the Voyager Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 I understand that Catelyn and (sansa) are probably the most realistic (normally) female mindsets during the midevil period and I also know that GRRM loves her as a character. Personally I wish the bitch was burned at the stake in AGOT. I too hope she is with Ned... and soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ironwill Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 Of course, but he had four of the Great Houses behind him (five if Tyrell joined him). Anyway, this is hijacking the thread (which, as Itm pointed out, was created precisely to avoid this kind of thing), so I'll cease and desist. True that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PenguinBeyondTheWall Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 Alive Caetlyn held my sympathy and from time to time sincere admiration in all she did, except for her relationship with Jon/her inability to put Eddard's unfaithfulness behind. But in the end, logically I know that it is very true to what a person would feel in that situation. It would be exceptionally hard to put Eddard's unfaithfulness behind her; what with Jon living right there constantly in her face, and constantly a reminder of it. Even worse, for her, is that Eddard will never speak of it, to her. I find Catelyn to be a terribly tragic figure in the story and have no reason to hate her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oneeye Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 Hate LF not Cat for being a pawn. Hate the Frey's and Beric for unCat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashara Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 It would be exceptionally hard to put Eddard's unfaithfulness behind her; what with Jon living right there constantly in her face, and constantly a reminder of it. Even worse, for her, is that Eddard will never speak of it, to her. Yes, but on another hand you have thirteen years that passed between the alleged tresspath and the "now". To me it will be more understandable if she either moved on and accepted that Eddard loves her now and there is no need to continue punishing Jon for his existence, or hated Eddard the way Cersei hates Robert. I guess, I just have a tough time understanding those who sit on the fence forever, though, of course, it is quite common. After all she had a man who unconditionally loved her - Littlefinger, so it sort of made her even with Eddard, even if he loved some other woman. She did not marry Eddard for love and discovered that he had loved another and lied to her... she never cared about his love life before he brought Jon in, that made her dig out the "Eddard is guilty" and keep begrudging it to him forever and ever and ever, over and over and over again. Anyway, I find it easier to sympathize with Cersei's position Re: Robert than with Caetlyn's position Re: Eddard. If you love a man, than love him without nitpicking. In other words, I understand what she is doing, but I cannot emphasise because it is not in my nature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redhead_ginny Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 Who pleaded Ned to head down to King's Landing? Who pleaded with Ned to not go to King's Landing once Bran had been crippled? Catelyn. In the end, the ultimate choice was Ned's, not Catelyn's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybroleach Posted February 18, 2006 Share Posted February 18, 2006 I've always believed there are two kinds of people in this world. Those who's hearts get torn apart reading Catelyn's plight and those without souls. What kind are you? Everything and everyone that mattered most to her were torn away in her lifetime, and on top of this, she was denied the sanctity of a clean death. Yes, she made a handful mistakes, but show me a POV character who hasn't. Further her intuition time and time again was born out to be true. She lost her husband, her children, her father...as her world gradually decended into black. How can her flaws be compared to her tragedy? I don't even have kids and I can empathize with what she must've gone through. Why can't you? Hers is the most heartwrenching tale I've experienced in a long while. I'm not usually moved by words on a page, it usually doesn't affect me to this extent and leave this cold void in the pit of my stomach. But I was dying right along with her at the Red Wedding. Catelyn Defenders: Roll call! It's time for people to pick a side and draw lines in the sand. This is something I believe in *very* strongly. interestingly enough i guess i fall into the 'heart torn apart' side (the way you've defined it) as i do empathize with her plight. But then i do cosider myself soulless since that's just a buch of religiuos mumbo-jumbo. We see every character suffer in AOIAF has tragedy to it that doen't mean we need to love the character or shouldn't dislike her for the reasons people do. Are people soulless for not liking her? and wishing her to die she lost her betrothed, her husband, her son, her father, the man she loves, and the faith took her dignity, and her crown. It's like a guy u know is the biggest asshole in the world then he gets cancer does that mean he's not an asshole anymore? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime L Posted February 18, 2006 Author Share Posted February 18, 2006 20-16 Defenders. (KM, I put you as a hater for obvious reason, namely how vociferously and unwaveringly you argued against Cat in the last thread. But it is possible you have a soul. Congratulations ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarkDesolation Posted February 18, 2006 Share Posted February 18, 2006 At least the thread lives up to its name... I dislike unfair and unjust accusations. Only Sith deal in absolutes-I mean- they are as 'fair' and 'just' as your defenses. Eddard Stark made up his own mind to head to King's Landing, although Catelyn strongly believed he should, and did so not only after Lady Lysa's letter arrived, but after Master Luwin also counseled him to go. Ned Stark was a man with a shrewish wife. He can barely control her with Jon and he probably uses all his 'foot down' points on that... If he stayed he'd never hear the end of it (even after she changed her mind as Ginny pointed out... cause Cate'd change it again thanks to a hunch or some nonsense) Eddard's choice was this- either listen to shrill Catelyn for the rest of his life as killing her would not be the Stark way or go to King's Landing. In the early discussions of the King's Landing Situation... Wasn't Catelyn assuming she'd get to go to court too? Just throwing that out there.. As for leaving Winterfel - she had to. Who else could go and warn Ned about the Lannister attempt on their son, which given the context of the situation was a very real and very pertinent threat? A raven. Ser Rodrick. Just about anybody. Hodor. The latter being the best choice for two reasons... Nobody could decipher his message and He'd certainly have his own POV chapters... thus in between pages of intruigue we'd get twenty or thirty pages with nothing but 'Hodor' in them. And Hodor to convey his inner monologue. Talk about your leaps - using your rather loose reasoning in terms of blame, we could drag the war all the way back to Cersei and Jaime for chosing to commit incest to begin with, or hell, to Aegon Targayrien for conquering the Seven Kingdom's and creating the political climate in the first place. Is that suppose to dissuade me? Or are you negotiating terms under which you'll accept that you can't spell 'cateclysm' without 'Catelyn' ?(the 'n' of course is half of them m in 'cateclysm'). Cause the Lannisters and Targaryens have some personal responsibility vested in this for sure... just like Catelyn Stark. As for the Riverlands, it's likely that Tywin planned that march long before Catelyn touched Tyrion. Talk about your leaps- using your rather loose reasoning in terms of likelihood we could say it was likely that Jaime originally tended to invite Bran in for a threesome but accidentally dropped him, or hell, Aegon Targayrien was likely just lost... but made the fatal mistake of letting his dragons ask for him forgetting in his jet (or dragon) lag that dragons to not talk but rain molten doom upon their foes. She handed the most dangerous man in Westeros a reason. She pissed off one of the top ten most dangerous men in Westeros enough for him to lead a stunt which broke her husband's leg and left him drugged up to convalesce with the second most dangerous woman in Westeros (first being herself) who is probably a little ticked off that her brotherlover stormed off. And then got captured which pissed off Tywin and Cersei even further turning the cold blood hot... That's not what would likely happen that's what did. As per the clans... Didn't say that she armed them personally... said it led to it... It did hwoever indirectly. Certainly not something more evil than the Red Wedding which spawned Lady Stoneheart. You attack my choice of reasoning and you use something like 'more evil'? Which is 'more evil' Gregor killing kids and their mommy or Gregor disfiguring Sandor? They are both rather miserable things. Just like the Red Wedding and Zombie Cate's 'crusade o'justice'. She like many other things introduced and elaborated upon in AFFC willl probably take a turn for the worse and get out of hand in book 6.. But we you're right we should blame Walder. He didn't cut of her head, burn her and send packets of her ashes for safe keeping in each of the Free Cities. Hyperbole much? A whole bunch of lots, actually. Tensions existed in Westeros long before Catelyn Stark had a hand in the political scene - if anything, Petyr Baelish is the greatest threat to Westerosi peace outside of the Others. He did start the war, after all. Lord Baelish would agree with you... and he set up the baord admirably... but even he saw the destructive power with Cate... and used her to manipulate Eddard... which he might have had to try other methods... If she just stayed the hell home and mobilized resistance from the North... So it's Princip's fault that WWI started? LOL. The whole of Europe was a powerkeg, and if Princip didn't make the thing blow up, something else would have. Everyone wanted war, everything was geared towards war, and the political allianced system gauranteed a very international conflict. WWI was a given by the time Princip killed Ferdinand - all he did was set the date. And that date was when it started... so if he hadn't set it... it wouldn't have begun when it did... So you could say it was Princip's fault that WWI started . I fail to see your beef, good ser. But nevermind that, I get what you're trying to say and would rather drop this instead of making the Elia threadjack look like small potatoes. Wait, you're telling me you don't prioritize which family member to help? You wouldn't help your sick grandmother with her shopping, for example, over helping your healthy father move a table? Okay. Didn't Catelyn choose helping her healthy son,y'know for example move his kinsman, over helping her crippled son and his emotionally fragile and growing more so by the day baby brother rule the entire North? ...Eh? Oh Rodrick and Luwin are up there helping? She wouldn't let these people deliver a freaking letter but Babysitting and Kingdom running are fine? Gotcha. Oh! And someone who tried to kill Bran is working in the kitchen and looking after the little ones? Splendid! She just knows Mance Rayder... she's not a Lannister man or anything... It only counts when Lannister men try to kill Bran. Catelyn was, if anything, the only character actually concerned with the human cost of Robb's war. Catelyn was if anything the only character with a POV for Robb's War. And from Theon's later chapters a better choice than at least one person... better than how many more? I couldn't say. So I think we're giving her more credit than is due. Why didn't you rebuke these points? Sympathise with her all you want but if you do not grasp that her selfish concern for a few* Jeopardized and caused the suffering of a great many more then while you might have a soul... I question your possesion of a grasp of the events here. and If anyone deserved a stance of ambivalence (love in some regards and held in absolute scorn and contempt in others)... It's Catelyn Stark. Are you okay with those? Here's another... Without Catelyn's actions and interactions we probably wouldn't have the basis for 70% of the books' plots. So love her, hate her, she's probably the books' MVP at least in early song. She still bugs me to pieces. P.S. Please forgive the lateness of my reply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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