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End of the Line for House Targaryen?


Howling North

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well if Rheagar is Jons father then he had to have passed on SOME of his Targ genes on, the hair and eyes would probably be less common but still pop up in every few kids. so not completely extinguished but just less common.

besides, this is a good thing. inbreeding is ICKY. Look at jaime and cersei. they produced one little jerk and two marshmallows...

To be fair, Myrcella seems to have turned out quite well. She's no marshmallow, tho she does have that ruined face problem.

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"When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east," said Mirri Maz Duur. "When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then [Drogo] will return, and not before."

Far fetched, but anyway, here we go:

The sun rising and setting could be symbolism for the Martells. Rising for the Targaryens in Westeros, we more or less know this is actually happening. Then failing or betraying them in Essos? Or setting could simply mean to arrive in Essos, I'm looking at you, Quentyn.

The seas go dry is the iffy part. Maybe the longest night and the seas freeze over? Maybe a Greyjoy armada of ships equals "dry seas" for Dany's purposes? Mountains falling would be the death of UnGregor.

When Dany gives birth to a child, this will be some kind of reincarnation of Drogo (maybe by simply being a great warrior and leader), thus he will return.

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Anyway, does anybody want the Targaryens to have the throne? There seems to be a terrible madman in almost every generation in the family (just like the Lannisters, heh), and frequently it happens to be the king.

Not really frequently. Aerys was the first mad king since 6 kings before him:

Aegon IV - not very decent he was hardly mad though, just stupid enough to give away swords, and legitimize bastards.

Daeron II - pretty decent

Aerys I - decent enough to appoint pretty decent Hand (and likes to read - don't fault him here)

Maekar I - decent

Aegon V - pretty decent

Jaehaerys II - pretty decent

Aerys II - mad

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Even if Jon is a Targaryen, as I assume, the House is still essentially finished. Daenerys is barren and Jon is sworn to have no children. And even if he did, his line would simply dilute into non-existence. His children would be a fourth Targaryen, their children an eighth and so on. Granted, this is simply genetics talking. Jon could conceivably have twelve children with anybody, and if legitimized, that would be twelve Targaryens in name, who could then repopulate the entire line. But the silver-gold hair and purple eyes are likely to fade out of existence.

Not necessary, assuming R+L=J, Jon is as much Targaryen as the other Rhaegar's kids. It's possible that Jon's kids would look like their grandfather and if you involve incest into the equation, silver-gold hair and purple eyes can go on.

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Not really frequently. Aerys was the first mad king since 6 kings before him:

Aegon IV - not very decent he was hardly mad though, just stupid enough to give away swords, and legitimize bastards.

Daeron II - pretty decent

Aerys I - decent enough to appoint pretty decent Hand (and likes to read - don't fault him here)

Maekar I - decent

Aegon V - pretty decent

Jaehaerys II - pretty decent

Aerys II - mad

Aegon IV was perhaps not completely mad, but he was cruel, corrupt and a terrible king, raping every highborn maiden plus many lowborns as well, and killing everyone who protested.

Two generations down there was Aerion the Monstrous (thankfully not becoming king).

Two generations after them there is Aerys II, and right after him Viserys.

Plus there are the Blacfyre bastards. I guess not all of them were completely sane, and the younger Daemon Blackfyre (in Mystery Knight) seems to be half-mad.

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Far fetched, but anyway, here we go:

The sun rising and setting could be symbolism for the Martells. Rising for the Targaryens in Westeros, we more or less know this is actually happening. Then failing or betraying them in Essos? Or setting could simply mean to arrive in Essos, I'm looking at you, Quentyn.

The seas go dry is the iffy part. Maybe the longest night and the seas freeze over? Maybe a Greyjoy armada of ships equals "dry seas" for Dany's purposes? Mountains falling would be the death of UnGregor.

When Dany gives birth to a child, this will be some kind of reincarnation of Drogo (maybe by simply being a great warrior and leader), thus he will return.

But that quote means this: Drogo will return when:

1.When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east

2.When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves

3.When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child.

So Dany being able to have a child has nothing to do with 1. and 2. .Even if 1. and 2. happen 3. does not necceserly.

On a different note, I think Dany will stay barren.

It is just her being barren and losing her child was a consequenses of mainly Drogos (pillaging innocent villigars) and her actions (wanting the Iron Throne without realising what bloodshead it requires).

She goes around conquering cities without having any real heir, without thinking about the fact that if she dies (we know she wont, at least untill the very last pages of the last book), anything she achived so far would turn for the worse, chaos, civil wars. If she suddenly becomes able to produce a heir, then it would be like "Oh, it doesnt matter that you didnt think about not having any legitimat heir during your conquers, becase it isnt even a problem, i mean look at you you actually can have children " And now look at all the other characters in the book, whom if they dont think through they actions properly, get the consequenses twice as hard.

I think for Dany as a character it would be much better if she had to name a heir. A heir who belongs to one of the "usurper" family. If Jon is R+L then she has to accept the fact that he is the son of Eddard Stark (wether he is his biological father or not, he is the one who raised him), or she could name a Baratheon bastard. Ever since the beginning of the story she saw the Starks, Baratheons, Lannisters as evil houses, who deserve wathever punishment they get, I think her absolute character developement would be naming someone from the said houses.

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Plus there are the Blacfyre bastards. I guess not all of them were completely sane, and the younger Daemon Blackfyre (in Mystery Knight) seems to be half-mad.

next: spoilers from the Mystery Knight.

Why ? He seemed pretty decent. He treated Dunk with respect, he gave fair trial by combat to the Fireball's bastard. He had prophetic dreams, but that's not madness. He was arrogant and overconfident but so are most great lords, kings and princes.

The other Blackfyres were hardly insane, from the little we know. Ambitious, yes but so are many other people.

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Far fetched, but anyway, here we go:

The sun rising and setting could be symbolism for the Martells. Rising for the Targaryens in Westeros, we more or less know this is actually happening. Then failing or betraying them in Essos? Or setting could simply mean to arrive in Essos, I'm looking at you, Quentyn.

The seas go dry is the iffy part. Maybe the longest night and the seas freeze over? Maybe a Greyjoy armada of ships equals "dry seas" for Dany's purposes? Mountains falling would be the death of UnGregor.

When Dany gives birth to a child, this will be some kind of reincarnation of Drogo (maybe by simply being a great warrior and leader), thus he will return.

I've wondered if the Others will bring about some sort of End Times, where physics go crazy and all of these things are a possibility

And speaking of something completely different: there are plenty of Targaryen bastards floating around the free cities. We know of at least one - the Black Pearl is a descendent of some Targaryen king. The Valyrian features could outlive the house name.

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That make Robert 1/5 Targ? I thought it was a hundred years prior the story the marriage between the Baratheons and the Targs.

Rhaegar (or Dany) and Robert were second cousins (they had/ve common great-grandfather, Aegon V) Of course the Baratheons didn't intermarried so they lost all physical features of the Targaryens, not mentioning that their "seed is strong".

:.

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Far fetched, but anyway, here we go:

The sun rising and setting could be symbolism for the Martells. Rising for the Targaryens in Westeros, we more or less know this is actually happening. Then failing or betraying them in Essos? Or setting could simply mean to arrive in Essos, I'm looking at you, Quentyn.

The seas go dry is the iffy part. Maybe the longest night and the seas freeze over? Maybe a Greyjoy armada of ships equals "dry seas" for Dany's purposes? Mountains falling would be the death of UnGregor.

When Dany gives birth to a child, this will be some kind of reincarnation of Drogo (maybe by simply being a great warrior and leader), thus he will return.

Hey, maybe you're on to something here. The "seas going dry" could just mean the seas freezing solidly into ice. The "mountains blowing like leaves" could mean the mountains are covered in snow, and the harsh winter winds blowing on them make them APPEAR as if the mountains themselves are disintgrating as the layers of snow are blown off.

As far as the sun rising in the west, and setting in the east, I thing that your explanation involving the Martells could somehow work out.

And that's pretty weird, that "Drogo will return." If Dany got pregnant again, could she somehow actually give birth to the Stallion Who Mounts the World? Could she somehow give rebirth to Drogo? Maybe Drogo will be Azor Ahai reborn! LOL.

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Im new here so I don't know if this has been suggested already:

Spoilers for Shakespeare's Macbeth by the way!

When MMD said the bit about Dany not bearing a live child, I was strongly reminded of Macbeth when the witches say that Macbeth cannot be killed " by any man born of woman" which he takes to mean he is inmortal.

However at the end another character kills him, revealing he was not "born of woman" but born by Caesarean, and therefore could kill him.

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I'll say it again, I find it preferable that Daenerys and Jon do not have children together, even if they love each other and even if Daenerys is not barren. That is, unless they can somehow establish that incest is not the reason half their family goes insane and, also, that the pureness of their bloodline is needed to control the dragons in some fashion.

There is also this, if they don't marry other people, they will lose their most powerful tool in forging alliances they can count on. Say Daenerys marries Willas Tyrell and Jon marries Arianne Martell. Under those circumstances, if they ever face rebellion to Targaryen rule they can at least be sure to call on 100,000 men when you combine the forces of Highgarden, Winterfell, and Sunspear.

Then again, maybe their dragons will be so powerful they won't need such alliances. Either way, I'd rather be safe than sorry.

GRRM confirmed that House Dayne has no Valyrian (or Targaryen) blood, nor are they related to Elizabeth Taylor.

Damn, there went that theory!

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I'll say it again, I find it preferable that Daenerys and Jon do not have children together, even if they love each other and even if Daenerys is not barren. That is, unless they can somehow establish that incest is not the reason half their family goes insane and, also, that the pureness of their bloodline is needed to control the dragons in some fashion.

I actually should have mentioned this earlier, but I'm fairly certain Dany is never going to have sex with another man. Or if she does she's going to be on bottom just to be annoyingly literal.

"...three mounts must you ride ... one to bed and one to dread and one to love..." - from the House of the Undying

It doesn't say "two to bed" or "three to bed" so I assume she's only going to ever have sex with one man, Drogo. So, unless Jon freezes his sperm and the Westerosi invent artificial insemination some time quick, I'm fairly certain she's never going to have a child with him, or any other man. I also took this as the explanation for why she hasn't, say, done anything about her attraction to Daario. Fate won't let her.

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Dany's dragons are never going to be overpowering strong like the three Dragons of old in the timeframe of the books. Simply because Aegon the Conqueror's dragons were 100 years old, Dany's won't be that old any time soon. She is not that powerful. She has only Dorne now.

I don't see a reason why she won't have sex anymore. Don't be cruel to the poor girl.

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The dragon has 3 heads so many believe that there is a 3rd Targaryen out there. Whether that Targaryen is young Griff (Aegon) or Tyrion is up for debate.

If Tywin is not Tyrion's father it destroys his entire storyline. I sincerely hope this is not the case.

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Even Robert had to claim Targ blood to help cement his legitimacy, law and precedent do matter to some extent. They create order and stability within the minds of the subjects, and people will gravitate to that if nothing else.

I just want to point Robert did not have to claim that, he won the throne through conquest, the same as the Targaryens did. He only pointed out his Targ blood to smooth things over with loyalists and prickly folks.

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the reason Maester Aemon stayed at the wall was to keep his and other Targaryen sperm samples perfectly preserved in ice and ready to use for the day that the Usurper fell from grace.

Unless Three-finger Hobb came across them and served em up as Rocky Mountain Oysters.

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