Ser Loras Conspiracy Theory

[Miyamoto]

They most likely murdered Joffery. (At least the Queen of Thorns) So why would somebody be willing murder a king and not be willing to back that up with war? That is the pretext for war.

Now known reasons why the Tyrells would be pissed at the Lannisters before Cersei's accusations? I don't think there is any.

[The hairy bear]

Why would the Tyrells lie about such a big thing? Why would they consider that alienating the queen regent is in their best interests? It makes no sense, and any theory arguing that the Tyrells lie should at least offer a potential reason for it.

It makes even less sense considering the opportunity they might be losing here. If Loras Tyrell had succesfully leaded the assault on Dragonstone and had returned unharmed he would become a hero in King's Landing. Loras would have the people at his feet. He would only have to publicly demand to Cersei leave to go an attack the ironmen and she couldn't refuse.

[Guest]

Do they need a specific reason? They're players in the game of thrones as much as the Lannisters. If they believed they could keep their intentions and plots secret, and if they also believed they'd have something to gain from it, I see no reason why they'd, well, need a reason. It's highly likely that they poisoned Joffrey, and perhaps even had a role in Tywin's death.

On a similar note, could it be possible that Varys is working for the Lannisters? Or by the "Varys is for the Targs" theory, that the Tyrells are also interested in restoration of the Targaryen dynasty?

I thought it was confirmed that the Tyrell's had a hand in the posioning? Something about the gems in Sansa's hairnet? Yes, now I remember. This was definatly confirmed. But I love that you say 'do they need a reason'. No, they don't.

[Dragonfish]

Do they need a specific reason?

Not necessarily. But Miyamoto was claiming that they did have a specific reason (namely, that Margaery was being "falsely" accused of treason), and I was simply pointing out that all this stuff about Loras happened before that reason arose. Thus, Margaery being accused of treason could not have been the motivation for their supposed lie about Loras. It's just a simple timeline issue, and I'm surprised that we're arguing this much about it.

It's highly likely that they poisoned Joffrey, and perhaps even had a role in Tywin's death.

Where are you getting that they had a hand in Tywin's death?

[Miyamoto]

Not necessarily. But Miyamoto was claiming that they did have a specific reason (namely, that Margaery was being "falsely" accused of treason), and I was simply pointing out that all this stuff about Loras happened before that reason arose. Thus, Margaery being accused of treason could not have been the motivation for their supposed lie about Loras. It's just a simple timeline issue, and I'm surprised that we're arguing this much about it.

:fencing:

I was just orginally pointing out that the Tyrells do indeed now have a pretext for war against the Lannisters, because of Cersei's accusations, not tying that with Loras's injury.

And I thought the iron men were still raiding Highgarden whenever Cersei accused Margery.

[mcb]

Ah, this is true. I had forgotten that huge detail. Well, whatever the reason behind it, I still think that Loras is out and about executing some plot to bring down the Lannisters. There is no way that beautiful man was going to let himself be burned by oil. His vanity would not allow it.

Loras? Plotting and scheming? Well, we've seen Tyrion being a badass warrior, so nothing is really out of the realm of possibility. But not really what I'd suspect him of.

And by the way, it's entirely possible Loras didn't consent to get burned, but it happened anyway. That's what battles are about: kill or maim the enemy even if he opposes.

OTOH...

As for Ser Loras' injuries being faked... it's hard to believe. It was done in the middle of a battle, with thousands of witnesses.

Yes, the soldiers have seen him getting injured, but in the heat of battle probably did not take their time to assess his injuries. They didn't, moreover, assist maester Hawkeye treating him after the battle. So now we have a limited number of people with first hand knowledge about Loras' condition. If the Roses want to broadcast fake information about Loras' imminent death, while his wounds are in fact moderate, it's perfectly doable.

In technicality, the accusations weren't false.

Well, Cersei accused her of fucking Osney Kettleblack, which was, in fact, false.

[Dragonfish]

I was just orginally pointing out that the Tyrells do indeed now have a pretext for war against the Lannisters, because of Cersei's accusations, not tying that with Loras's injury.

Ok, that wasn't quite clear in context, but I understand what you're saying now. Certainly Mace Tyrell has a perfectly good reason to march on King's Landing now. I just don't think that same reason motivated their supposed lie about Loras.

And I thought the iron men were still raiding Highgarden whenever Cersei accused Margery.

I don't know if they're raiding Highgarden specifically (that would certainly be a big deal), but they are raiding the Reach in general, and they're within striking distance of Highgarden and Oldtown.

[Bar Keep]

I forget did we have any other confirmation that Dragonstone was even taken other than what Waters reported? Otherwise the whole story could have been fabricated. They could have by passed Dragonstone all together and made for the Reach. We all know Waters wasn't the must trust worthy person.

I don't think something like this could be Loras's idea but I could see the Queen of Thorns doing something like this.

[Galen M]

I forget did we have any other confirmation that Dragonstone was even taken other than what Waters reported? Otherwise the whole story could have been fabricated. They could have by passed Dragonstone all together and made for the Reach. We all know Waters wasn't the must trust worthy person.

I don't think something like this could be Loras's idea but I could see the Queen of Thorns doing something like this.

certainly possible, but i would like to think Loras has more honor than that.

[Cause]

Ah, this is true. I had forgotten that huge detail. Well, whatever the reason behind it, I still think that Loras is out and about executing some plot to bring down the Lannisters. There is no way that beautiful man was going to let himself be burned by oil. His vanity would not allow it. I honestly believe that the burn victim will turn out to be someone else.

I doubt the Garrison of dragonstone or the oil asked his opinion.

[Miyamoto]

certainly possible, but i would like to think Loras has more honor than that.

He and Renly upjumped Stannis out of the line of succession, Loras exactly isn't a bastion of chivalry. He used base tactics to beat the Mountain in the Tourney of the Hand.

[Guest]

Loras? Plotting and scheming? Well, we've seen Tyrion being a badass warrior, so nothing is really out of the realm of possibility. But not really what I'd suspect him of.

And by the way, it's entirely possible Loras didn't consent to get burned, but it happened anyway. That's what battles are about: kill or maim the enemy

I never meant to say he had to allow himself to get burned. I mean to say he would not go in first and put himself in the position to be burned like they said he did. I also never said he made up the scheme. I think The Queen of Thornes is behind it and Loras is just the instrument.

[Guest]

I doubt the Garrison of dragonstone or the oil asked his opinion.

Again, I didn't suggest that he needed to be asked. I mean that he wouldn't have rushed in headlong to put himself in the position to get burned. That comment about his vanity was more of a jape anyway.....I'm suprised at how many are taking it seriously. Lol :) Next time, I'll be more clear when joking ;)

[Miyamoto]

Loras rushing into battle headfirst into the breach, trying to end the siege quick and bloody, sounds like something his character would do. I'd say it's 50/50 until we get a more reliable source's intel on the situation.

[Guest]

Loras rushing into battle headfirst into the breach, trying to end the siege quick and bloody, sounds like something his character would do. I'd say it's 50/50 until we get a more reliable source's intel on the situation.

You're probably right about that being part of his character but one little thing slightly suggests otherwise. He used base techniques to defeat The Mountain. If he is as reckless as everyone thinks he is, then why bother? To me, that shows a more cautionary attitude. Reckless Loras would have just fought him fair arrogantly thinking he would win no matter what. But he didn't do that. Because he may be smarter than he gets credit for ;) And I refuse to believe otherwise. Lol! :)

[SirCharles of HouseBarkley]

Aurane Waters is from Driftmark. He fought for Stannis during the Battle of the Blackwater. I could see him lying about attacking Dragonstone, for whatever reason.

Also, who were the men that went and fought on Dragonstone? I thought that they were Tyrell men. If so, they would lie about what happened if Loras told them too.

I don't doubt that Loras took the job of storming Dragonstone from Cersei on a hotheaded whim, but I think that someone (Queen of Thorns) took advantage of the circumstances of the situation.

[Xenophon]

You're probably right about that being part of his character but one little thing slightly suggests otherwise. He used base techniques to defeat The Mountain. If he is as reckless as everyone thinks he is, then why bother? To me, that shows a more cautionary attitude. Reckless Loras would have just fought him fair arrogantly thinking he would win no matter what. But he didn't do that. Because he may be smarter than he gets credit for ;) And I refuse to believe otherwise. Lol! :)

I don't know. He asks to lead the charge against Stannis for Renly. It's not quite a forlorn hope, but he's clearly not that cautious in battle.

[Faint]

It must also be considered that reports coming to the Vale speak of Riverrun being taken but Dragonstone still holding out even though, according to the way things were reported to Cersei in King's Landing, the taking of Dragonstone occurred before Riverrun was taken.

Something strange is going on.

I don't buy into an all encompassing Tyrell conspiracy because Margaery seems to be in legitimate trouble. The Tyrell army is not marching to King's Landing otherwise. That said, is it too much of a stretch to think Margaery and Loras conspired with Aurane Waters to lie to Cersei so the fleet beseeching Dragonstone could be re-directed to the Shield Islands?

[Wik]

Yes, most likely, the Church and them taking Marg wasn't part of a Tyrell plan. That being said I have to agree with the OP, I always had the feeling that Loras was not hurt. Was not injured. I can't say exactly why. I know that doesn't help you guys who need/want evidence. But I honestly think he is fine. I feel like the Lannisters balk at doing anything to the Tyrells because they under estimate them, and they know the renown Loras has. Loras has been his sister's shield. But the Queen of Thorns is cunning and I think she has a plan that arches over Cersei and anything she has put together. And while I don't know exactly why or how, I feel like this is part of her scheme.

[-42-]

I think the entire idea behind burning Loras is that Martin wants to rob the Knight of Flowers of his beauty, which has really seemed to be the cornerstone of his character (along with his tourney prowess). I think an ugly, bitter Loras would be far more interesting anyways.