[BOOK SPOILERS] Book Catelyn vs. Show Catelyn

[Easy]

That may be, but I don't much see how it's here or there. It's not like a complaint about the handling of one character means that anyone thinks the whole show is bad. Is that what you think I'm saying? As far as I can tell, I've limited my points very specifically to the handling of one character. And really, there's been threads about changes to Cersei, changes to Drogo, discussion of the changes to Sansa here and there. Is it anything out of place to have this thread too? I'm sorry, I'm just curious what you're getting at.

No, what I meant is that only after reflecting on which characters were changed and which of those came off the worst did I realise that Catelyn would be up there amongst the worst off. But it's only upon reflection whereas fans of hers would notice the changes much more quickly and feel them more strongly.

I think the deletion of Catelyn's political side and the removal of her plea for peace are two very big things. Would you say that it's just no big deal if they made Tyrion not funny, or skipped Ned's refusal to assassinate Daenerys?

These are good examples. As a fan of both of them, I would definitely notice and be ticked off if they did that so I suppose it's all relative. When I said it's not necessarily that bad, I guess that's from my perspective of not being a Cat fan. For the record, I do like her political and diplomatic adeptness in the books and I do think it's a bit detrimental for that to be tempered in the show. But in terms of my enjoyment of the show it's not a critical change. On the other hand, it's understandable for Cat fans to feel otherwise.

I also don't think the writers have misunderstood the character or changed her to appease the audience. It's a mixture of time and medium constraints while trying to deliver the essence of several storylines. Certain nuances to her character are simply casualties to these compromises. How important these changes are will depend on what one enjoys from the book series. One area where everyone loses out, and most without realising, is that the complexity and variety of personalities make for a rich series, and losing a shade of one person's character in the TV transition means that we all lose out on some of that richness. Can we agree on that?

[Lady Blackfish]

Well, thing is that I honestly just can't see how it's only about the medium or time constraints. That is, I can understand cutting the Blackfish and not showing her riverlands travels and I can understand toning down "It should have been you", for example, but not other things, like:

- Cat objecting to Ned executing a ranger and taking Bran with

- Cat reacting to Robert's offer on purely emotional and domestic grounds, instead of any political/dynastic concerns

- Cat not slitting the attacker's throat in the mountains

I can't see how those are examples of medium or time constraints (or budget constraints), because those scenes are already given time and it seems to me it's just a matter of writing the right thing. I also can't see how the book version is somehow unpalatable to a TVv audience, I think TV audiences would respond well to a visual moment of badass like throat-slitting in an action scene, and I also credit them for being able to process a mother and wife figure who isn't a "little woman" type plyed straight because I think that television has moved beyond those kinds of depictions, especially television shows that seriously contend for "quality TV" labels (see: Betty Draper on Mad Men, Nancy Botwin on Weeds, etc).

Also, I don't mind additions; to the contrary I think they should be used to full effect -- when it enhances what's in the spirit of the books. Instead of Luwin and Catelyn talking about Tyrion in the first episode, they could have had Cat giving orders about seating arrangements in front of Jon. This would've been a more pertinent and relevant use of that screen time, as an example. That's more "eye on the ball" to me.

And then there are also just some aspects of characters' arcs that really just should be given screen time and development. You can't cut everything, you have to prioritize the main points of the major character arcs. Here's a thing I mentioned way back before the series premiered: if the only thing that matters is the big political plot points, then a lot of the women will lose out. Besides Cersei and Dany, Cases can be made for the female characters (Sansa, Catelyn, Arya, and Brienne) being more important as windows than anything else ...

Unless their personal arcs matter to the show. And if they matter to the show, then I do think robbing Cat of her big moment, her reasoned plea for peace, is notable. If this is "event TV", then characters' arcs need to coincide with those big events frequently enough to avoid this being a totally plot-driven, as opposed to character-driven, show. And I think that the show needs to care enough about things like Catelyn Tully Stark simply being too moral and controlled to beat up Jaime Lannister like she did in the tenth episode. It made for good TV, yes, but Cat's long-term journey is from a civilized, controlled, generally self-abnegating and relatively pacifist (by conviction, not by timidity) person to a monstrous, merciless, unleashed scion of violent retribution. It's quite a steady (streamlined!) journey in the books, and the decision to change it seems to have a short-term payoff rather than a long-term one. I mean, Catelyn's self control and struggle to remain civilized amidst horror is one of the least trivial aspects about the character I should think?

Seasons only get ten episodes and the arguments are that things need to be streamlined. But that's exactly what I don't see here, and while they can definitely still "recover" the character in season two, IMO they made more work for themselves than necessary just by not paying attention in S1. Cat a ticking clock because she dies after three seasons, so "Wait and see" only works for so long, and her story is one of loss and "negative" transformation, and we're only getting ten episodes a season, so in the long run the beginning of her story seem pretty critical. That's always been where I'm coming from.

I'm sorry if I seem harsh and unattractively critical. I do honestly think that the show needs to demonstrate (in the show, not in interviews or periphery materials) better understanding of some characters than they did in season one. I There's definitely characters they "get" and love: Tyrion, Arya, Dany (rape wedding night brouhaha aside), Jaime, Jon, Robb, Robert. But not everyone. That's my appraisal of their product. For me, the character arcs are more important than things like big battles and the like, and I understand that not everybody enjoys Cat's character or arc, but she is a major character. Martin chose her to be our main eye on the Starks' war, and HBO did choose to make her relatively highly billed (despite the notable lack of "star power"). I think it's still in their best interests to execute her arc with a deeper understanding. It certainly can't hurt.

I don't think that HBO's take isn't enjoyable, but many different stories are enjoyable. That still doesn't make those stories ASOIAF. I don't need (or want) a slavish adaptation, but the major character arcs should really be up there on the priority list.