Boltons...

[Ferrous]

1st off, I am pretty sure that Stannis could take the Boltons out on his own. 2nd, Stoneheart seems like someone who could figure out how to isolate someone. Don't count her out. 3rd, Everyone knows about the red wedding! Everyone! The news is all over the kingdoms. He probably doesn't have the specifics but I am sure he can figure out that the Starks were sold out by whoever the Lannisters and the Freys are backing.

The crannogmen can't be reached by ravens though. By the time they learn most of the information then Bolton will be out of their reach. IIRC Stannis has a similar, if not smaller army then the Boltons - which is augmented by wildlings -, hasn't got the support of anyone except the Karstarks who are in a pretty bad situation and most importantly Stannis knows about the others. Stannis also knows that the others are the most important battle and will therefore keep a lot of troops near the wall in case the others attack.

[Ferrous]

Agreed, but I am pretty sure that we are right Valmy.

None of us believe that the Boltons are anything but screwed.

However this is because of events that they couldn't have predicted and that are out of their control.

I actually do like the Starks. I just don't dislike Bolton, because viewing him as a fictional character, I can see why he did what he did and can actually admire how he did it.

The Freys I don't admire because they were despicable.

[Faranya]

4. Robb declared himself King of the north and the riverlands. He had an arguable claim to be King of the North but no claim to the riverlands. But he didn't do it for selfish reasons. Robb Stark put individual honour of Jeyne ahead of his kingdom which is self centrered. Robb Stark allowed his mother to get away with major treason- which was fair enough - but was inflexible in regards to Karstark.

I just want to say, he didn't so much declare himself King in the North, as he did accept the title when his bannermen demanded it. And he didn't declare himself King of the Riverlands, the riverlords swore fealty to him. It really doesn't matter if you have the claim to governance when the people swear fealty to you.

And Catlyn's treason involved releasing a prisoner in exchange for her children. Rickard's treason involved murdering two young men, who has been promised hospitality and security, in the night. I think it is ridiculous to equate those two actions.

[Podrick + Arya = Win]

I just want to say, he didn't so much declare himself King in the North, as he did accept the title when his bannermen demanded it. And he didn't declare himself King of the Riverlands, the riverlords swore fealty to him. It really doesn't matter if you have the claim to governance when the people swear fealty to you.

And Catlyn's treason involved releasing a prisoner in exchange for her children. Rickard's treason involved murdering two young men, who has been promised hospitality and security, in the night. I think it is ridiculous to equate those two actions.

If not treason, I'd call that stupidity.

[Kalbowski]

I just want to say, he didn't so much declare himself King in the North, as he did accept the title when his bannermen demanded it. And he didn't declare himself King of the Riverlands, the riverlords swore fealty to him. It really doesn't matter if you have the claim to governance when the people swear fealty to you.

And Catlyn's treason involved releasing a prisoner in exchange for her children. Rickard's treason involved murdering two young men, who has been promised hospitality and security, in the night. I think it is ridiculous to equate those two actions.

:agree:

I couldn't have put it any better.

[Faranya]

If not treason, I'd call that stupidity.

I never said that what Catlyn did was smart, I said it wasn't ethically equivalent to murder. And as far as I know, the punishment for stupidity is not death.

[Guest]

(and because his son - who is also a necrophile)

Really?! How did I miss that? When does Martin say he's a necrophile?

[Faranya]

Really?! How did I miss that? When does Martin say he's a necrophile?

There is a line somewhere about someone having sex with the Lady Hornwood after her death. I can't remember if it was Ramsey or Reek though...

[Guest]

There is a line somewhere about someone having sex with the Lady Hornwood after her death. I can't remember if it was Ramsey or Reek though...

Ooooooh, I remember now!!!! Gross, gross, gross!!!! I think I blocked it out intentionally....Ugh... :( I remember that Ramsay raped and killed a girl and I think he gave her to Reek after she was dead but I don't remember which one was involved with the Lady Hornwood stuff. Yuck!

[El Pinko Grande]

The fact that there are Bolton fanboys is disturbing to me.

Roose was not justified in betraying Robb. If he felt the rebellion was doomed, he needed to make that opinion known in council with Robb. If Robb ignored him, well, then Roose would have been justified in taking some sort of action. But, IIRC, that never happened.

Even if all of the Starks were dead, the Boltons would be screwed. It would be one thing if Bolton openly defied Robb and beat him on the field of battle. He might receive some degree of respect for his strength. But instead, he helped murder an unarmed Robb at a wedding, when Robb had every reason to expect to be protected through guest-right. That might seem clever or admirable to someone like Littlefinger, but I don’t think anyone in the North is impressed. And of course, the Lannisters made him Warden of the North. The quid pro quo there is going to be apparent to everyone, even if they don’t know that Roose himself struck the final blow against Robb.

Also, let’s not forget how many Northmen have died at the hands of the Boltons by now. Northerners are going to lay the deaths of all those soldiers who were butchered outside the Twins at the feet of the Boltons and the Freys. And of course, there’s Rodrick Cassel’s host that was slaughtered by Ramsay. Roose may well have disapproved of that action, but no one in the North will believe he didn’t order it. It’s funny how people always take Robb to task for misjudging Edmure, no one seems to point out Roose’s stupidity in putting Ramsay in any sort of position of power. Letting a psychopath like that run around commanding Bolton men was a huge mistake on Roose’s part. It may have given the Boltons a short-term advantage while the Northern armies were down in the Riverlands, but it will screw Roose in the long run.

So yeah, Bolton’s ploy has no chance of success. None of his subjects will respect him. They might fear him for now, but that won’t last. They will, however, continue to hate him. Robb’s reputation will grow with time, and people are going to say that his enemies were too frightened to meet him on the field of battle. And with their hosts rebuilt, Bolton’s bannermen will turn on him at the first excuse. Technically it will be a rebellion, but everyone will call it justice.

[Nukelavee]

I'm not certain why people think Roose is screwed.

Well, why they think he is doomed, anyways, as a sure thing.

Why WOULD Stannis go after Roose? Not for the Red Wedding or Robb, because Robb was a traitor to Stannis. Because he is now a Lannister ally? Maybe, but Roose could easily state that he accepted the alliance because he needed to be able to get out of the south without the Lannister's hounding him, or the Freys as a threat. Winterfell was Theon, for all anybody knows right now.

Next - which of the major northern houses still have established leaders, much less much strength in the North? Cerwyns are toast, Karstarks are reeling, Umbers, Glovers, Talhearts...all decimated and down to looking for heirs. Plus, Torren's Square, Moat Caillin, Deepwood Motte, all taken by the Ironborn. House Bolton is the major player in the North, the North needs him at least until the Ironborn are beaten.

He's in a great position, IF he maintains the smart positioning he has.

About the Boltons in general - The Boltons strike me as being in the same spot the Tarbecks and Tyrells once held - the lords most likely to be rulers IF their "royal" house falls. The North sounds like it always came down to Bolton vs Stark, with the Boltons just too strong to wipe out, but never strong enough to overwhelm the Starks. So, they served, patiently, as long as the status quo was unchanged. Once Bolton saw Robb's cause going badly, it was likely the chance Boltons have waited for for centuries. Hell, if the mad king HAD managed to wipe out the Starks...Bolton likely would have tried something then.

[Nukelavee]

I'm not certain why people think Roose is screwed.

Well, why they think he is doomed, anyways, as a sure thing.

Why WOULD Stannis go after Roose? Not for the Red Wedding or Robb, because Robb was a traitor to Stannis. Because he is now a Lannister ally? Maybe, but Roose could easily state that he accepted the alliance because he needed to be able to get out of the south without the Lannister's hounding him, or the Freys as a threat. Winterfell was Theon, for all anybody knows right now.

Next - which of the major northern houses still have established leaders, much less much strength in the North? Cerwyns are toast, Karstarks are reeling, Umbers, Glovers, Talhearts...all decimated and down to looking for heirs. Plus, Torren's Square, Moat Caillin, Deepwood Motte, all taken by the Ironborn. House Bolton is the major player in the North, the North needs him at least until the Ironborn are beaten.

He's in a great position, IF he maintains the smart positioning he has.

About the Boltons in general - The Boltons strike me as being in the same spot the Tarbecks and Tyrells once held - the lords most likely to be rulers IF their "royal" house falls. The North sounds like it always came down to Bolton vs Stark, with the Boltons just too strong to wipe out, but never strong enough to overwhelm the Starks. So, they served, patiently, as long as the status quo was unchanged. Once Bolton saw Robb's cause going badly, it was likely the chance Boltons have waited for for centuries. Hell, if the mad king HAD managed to wipe out the Starks...Bolton likely would have tried something then.

[Elrick]

Well personally I think that the Boltons aren't supposed to be sympathetic and most of the people that do want them to win are not that mature in my opinion. It seems like the same mindset to those who thought that the empire should crush the alliance in Starwars. Truth be known supporting the villians over the heros is pretty common among readers, I however feel that the Boltons are one of those I love to hate because they are so utterly vile and evil. They are part of what makes the series so damn exciting as its filled with villians as well as good guys and keeps you guessing whose going to survive and who isn't.

I personally believe that Bolton and Ramsay are both going to die but which one dies first depends. I am hoping that Ramsay comes across an other and gets the crap beaten out of him!

Why WOULD Stannis go after Roose? Not for the Red Wedding or Robb, because Robb was a traitor to Stannis. Because he is now a Lannister ally? Maybe, but Roose could easily state that he accepted the alliance because he needed to be able to get out of the south without the Lannister's hounding him, or the Freys as a threat. Winterfell was Theon, for all anybody knows right now.

Good point I have little doubt that Stannis would pardon the Boltons but seeing as they are allied with the Lannisters at present I don't see this happening at least for the time being. I do see that the Iron Men and Boltons becoming bitter enemies however.

[Pate Peet]

Roose has a Frey wife and through Ramsay, two boy Walder Freys as hostages.

Might Roose Bolton blame all of Ramsay's actions as Ramsay's independent actions, in combination with defense of the North from the Ironborn? Maybe Roose will kill Ramsay, once he has a new heir with his Frey wife.

Re-reading the Tyrion-Tywin discussion of the RW aftermath, it does seem Tywin is double-crossing Roose, but Roose has his butt fairly well covered.

[Faranya]

Why WOULD Stannis go after Roose? Not for the Red Wedding or Robb, because Robb was a traitor to Stannis. Because he is now a Lannister ally? Maybe, but Roose could easily state that he accepted the alliance because he needed to be able to get out of the south without the Lannister's hounding him, or the Freys as a threat. Winterfell was Theon, for all anybody knows right now.

Well, I would imagine that someone as prickly about the law as Stannis would not just hand-wave such a vile act of breaking the laws of hospitality that seem to be exceedingly important. However, Stannis does seem to be getting a little blurry on those lines thanks to Melisandre...

[Podrick + Arya = Win]

I think he has more important business on the wall. He's not the Westeros police.

[Nukelavee]

Roose didn't break the laws of hospitality, the Freys did.

Stannis would, now, have to accept that Roose killed a traitor, Robb.

All Roose has to do, once he gets past the Reeds and Moat Caillin, is bend the knee to Stannis.

I can see him disavowing Ramsay, and cleaning up the mess (including killing the Bastard), because, yeah, he has a wife again for sons. That alone will go a ways to covering his ass.

[Faranya]

Roose didn't break the laws of hospitality, the Freys did.

Stannis would, now, have to accept that Roose killed a traitor, Robb.

All Roose has to do, once he gets past the Reeds and Moat Caillin, is bend the knee to Stannis.

I can see him disavowing Ramsay, and cleaning up the mess (including killing the Bastard), because, yeah, he has a wife again for sons. That alone will go a ways to covering his ass.

Yeah...I still expect something to happen to him.

Warden of the North for killing a traitor...minus something for doing so in a despicable manner. The good doesn't wash out the bad.

[El Pinko Grande]

Roose didn't break the laws of hospitality, the Freys did.

Stannis would, now, have to accept that Roose killed a traitor, Robb.

All Roose has to do, once he gets past the Reeds and Moat Caillin, is bend the knee to Stannis.

I can see him disavowing Ramsay, and cleaning up the mess (including killing the Bastard), because, yeah, he has a wife again for sons. That alone will go a ways to covering his ass.

Roose killed his liege lord, who he had sworn to serve. That's a pretty severe case of oath-breaking, and Stannis isn't going to like it. And no, it doesn't matter that Robb was a traitor. Stannis said in CoK that he doesn't hold anything against Joffrey or Robb's followers, because they are simply following their liege lords. He clearly takes those oaths seriously, and Bolton's breaking of his oaths of fealty are going to strongly dispose Stannis against him.

Which isn't to say Stannis is going to try to storm the Dreadfort or anything. But I can't imagine him accepting Bolton's fealty, at least not without inflicting some kind of appropriate punishment on him first, as he did with Davos.

[tozka]

The North sounds like it always came down to Bolton vs Stark, with the Boltons just too strong to wipe out, but never strong enough to overwhelm the Starks.

Does it? The only indication for this is Jaime's comment and he was trying to make Brienne feel better.

Well, I would imagine that someone as prickly about the law as Stannis would not just hand-wave such a vile act of breaking the laws of hospitality that seem to be exceedingly important. However, Stannis does seem to be getting a little blurry on those lines thanks to Melisandre...

Stannis has pardoned traitors, or offered pardons, yes gritting his teeth while doing it, but all the same.If Bolton is of a good use to Stannis, he would pardon him for sure.