[BOOK SPOILERS] Sex/Romance: What Fans Wanna See in Future Seasons [MEGA SPOILERS

[mr. peasant]

Wow. That's one long post. Will work my way through it slowly and give more thoughts then. But in the mean time, this:

• Nudity. In this interview David and Dan were asked "why show Hodor nude?" and they give the answer "equal opportunity nudity." Um, what? THIS ISN'T EQUAL!!!! Roz' boobs = Hodor's ass?? Dany's ass = Hodor's penis?? The people whom they have shown nude are the last people I want to see naked (Theon ugh!). So far you have only scored female fan points in my book by showing Khal Drogo's backside and top nudity with Jon/Robb. But there is so much more potential...!

I find it hilarious how people tend to compare breasts and penises when talking about nudity. Comparatively speaking, penises = vaginas would be more appropriate. As secondary sex characteristics, breasts tend not to be treated the same way as the bits between people's legs; both culturally and in media.

[Kaitscralt]

I think Jeyne will actually be a much more important character in the show, not less important. Robb is replacing Eddard as the #1 guy that fans will be routing for. I think they will make this tragic love and betrayal much more focused.

[Brienne the Beauty]

BookRobb is a 15-16 year old boy who hasn't really discovered sex yet.

He is clearly not 15 in the TV series. They may have to change the tone to account for this.

[beehives]

Without going into any details - can't believe you failed to mention Sam and Ginny. Requited but not acted upon failed repression.

Out of all of Martin's perverse sex scenes, this is the one I hated the most. A poster at the AV Club perfectly expressed what's wrong with that scene:

"I could tolerate Sam (barely) right up to where he acted out Martin's lactation fetish with the seasick, underage, father-fucking wildling, while being watched over by the noble, sex-positive black people. That was when Martin's most annoying character met several of Martin's creepiest, recurring themes. I can tolerate the annoying character. I can tolerate the creepy themes (underage/lactation/incest/horny people of color). All of that together, though, kinda squicked me out permanently."

But maybe you read it differently? I can see why some would be rooting for Sam, but god this is the perfect example of Martin's own sexual hang-ups interfering with my immersion in the story. If it happens too much it may become an unfortunate trademark. That said, I've been okay with every other sexual situation because in order for courtly love do die horribly, you need a bit of incestual/menstrual/stump sex on the altar of your dead son.

I don't think a plea for "normal intimacy" would fall on deaf ears, per se, but it would do great harm to the hook of the series. One of GRRM's most endearing (and aggravating) qualities as a writer is that he doesn't shy away from the unpleasant or unfair. If a character is beloved by the readers, good chance he or she is going to be removed in most unkind fashion - because real life happens that way.

Exactly, we want conflict! Great posts overall - I don't have anything substantial to add. =)

If women watch the show and leave it because there isn't enough romance... Maybe they shouldn't watch? The show isn't about romance, it's about power and honor (or lack of).

That's not what I'm saying here. Perhaps my intention was unclear. But as characters undergo a conflict between LOVE and HONOR, we get something riveting. That struggle may be confused with "romance," but I'm not talking about romance in the Harlequin novel sense. Joss Whedon pretty great at this, actually. He didn't allow any of his characters happiness in love. This kind of TV appeals to fans who are very interested in relationship conflict. In the Season 2 thread there's a lot of plot mapping going on, which is pretty boring IMO. I hope we see more scenes like the brilliant one between Master Aemon and Jon about family and honor, actually. When internal character conflicts represent larger themes about the heart struggling with itself (what Martin is best at), I'm happy.

[age]

He is clearly not 15 in the TV series. They may have to change the tone to account for this.

Agreed. Still I think it's a shame they haven't been able to capture Robb's insecurty thus far. His lack of PoV in the books distracts from the fact that he's actually a pretty complex character.

[beehives]

I don't want this to come off as criticism, because this is an interesting and really well-thought out post (even for a male like me :) ), but I'm curious as to what you want, because I'm not sure from the original post.

Are you simply just asking to have these relationships on screen and paid attention to? I'm certain you will get most of these. They've already started the Dany and Jorah plotline, for example.

Or are you requesting changes to the story? There are Jorah and Dany shippers, in that they appreciate the storyline about their relationship. And then there are Jorah and Dany SHIPPERS, who want them to get together. I'm all for the former, but I find a lot of folks go the latter route -- they want the fairy tale. This isn't a fairy tale story, and I'd rather it stay that way.

I suspect you mean the former - "Please do it right" as opposed to the latter, but it's a real distinction.

Sorry to be confusing. No request for changes to the story, unless the on-screen chemistry necessitates it. A please do right request for future characters and a place to talk about what some consider lacking/great thus far. And I haven't even gotten to Shae and Tyrion.

My question on that is - does it really matter how Tyrion falls in love with her (being as sassy and uncharming as showShae is), when the real characterization comes from how desperately he wants to be loved and believe that it's real? Her personality and his desire to be loved seem like two different issues.

[CryFenril]

My question on that is - does it really matter how Tyrion falls in love with her (being as sassy and uncharming as showShae is), when the real characterization comes from how desperately he wants to be loved and believe that it's real? Her personality and his desire to be loved seem like two different issues.

Re: bolded segment

Not to me, to be frank. Book-Shae was loveable to Tyrion in part because of her waifish malleability - she will do whatever he tells her to do willingly, allowing him to feel a small sense of dominance in a society where he feels totally dominated by Cersei, Tywin, and everyone else around him due to his stature. He feels that the only thing that people think makes him remarkable is the simple fact of his being born a Lannister - whereas Shae is a sweet, wicked little woman who makes him feel powerful ("My giant of Lannister") without him having to physically overpower her.

I'll say again - let Tyrion slap Show-Shae, and watch her take him apart inch by inch and chew up the pieces.

Book-Shae is simple at heart - she loves fine things and leisure and luxury, and is willing to be whatever Tyrion wants to have those things. Show-Shae is approaching the relationship on her own terms - sure, she'll agree to his rules, but only to a point. She'll push back, something that book-Shae only does once (regarding his father) and never does again.

I have a hard time seeing Tyrion lose his heart so completely to a less submissive character, because it is exactly that submission that makes Book-Shae so endearing to him - he can feel like a "man" with her. With Show-Shae, they may get along better on an intellectual level, person-to-person, but I don't see him letting his guard down with her quite so much.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

Out of all of Martin's perverse sex scenes, this is the one I hated the most. A poster at the AV Club perfectly expressed what's wrong with that scene:

"I could tolerate Sam (barely) right up to where he acted out Martin's lactation fetish with the seasick, underage, father-fucking wildling, while being watched over by the noble, sex-positive black people. That was when Martin's most annoying character met several of Martin's creepiest, recurring themes. I can tolerate the annoying character. I can tolerate the creepy themes (underage/lactation/incest/horny people of color). All of that together, though, kinda squicked me out permanently."

[rant]

Wow I'd say it sounds like someone (you and this AV club person) have some sexual hangups, rather than GRRM.

Have you been married to or had sex with or been a woman who is lactating? No? OK then. You've got not business judging anyone else for that part of it. What do you think happens, you're having sex and you completely avoid the boobs suddenly because it's slightly taboo? Not unless you've got a weird hangup about lactation you don't.

Underage? Who's underage? Gilly is Sam's age AFAIK. Incest? What fing incest?

Sam + Gilly is like the sweetest, most consensual and least screwed up sex scene in any of the books. People that have a problem with it really just seem to hate Sam or have their own issues and there's not much more to it than that.

[/rant]

[Wik]

[rant]

Wow I'd say it sounds like someone (you and this AV club person) have some sexual hangups, rather than GRRM.

Have you been married to or had sex with or been a woman who is lactating? No? OK then. You've got not business judging anyone else for that part of it. What do you think happens, you're having sex and you completely avoid the boobs suddenly because it's slightly taboo? Not unless you've got a weird hangup about lactation you don't.

Underage? Who's underage? Gilly is Sam's age AFAIK. Incest? What fing incest?

Sam + Gilly is like the sweetest, most consensual and least screwed up sex scene in any of the books. People that have a problem with it really just seem to hate Sam or have their own issues and there's not much more to it than that.

[/rant]

Ya, this particular statement confused me. Why is Sam's sex scene so bad? If anything, (and as a guy, who is supposed to LOVE something like this) I thought the weirdest sex scene in the books was Cersei going all Brianna Banks/Jenna Jameson girl on girl scene. I was like "Ohhhhh......WHATTTTTTT!?!?!"

If anything, again perhaps this is my masculine sense of the situation, I was proud of Sam. He isn't a good looking guy. He was always concerned about his ability or lack thereof when talking with women and he was able to finally do the deed. Nothing wrong with that at all. The underage thing is played out. If you "have an issue with this" this series isn't for you. It isn't because underaged sex is acceptable or cool in modern times, but people need to face facts: political correctness, which has been a much more new "phenomenon" is what dictates under age. Back in the middle ages and even into our own colonial period in the U.S., women were married when they were 14, 16, 17. All "under age". They had children. Men married when they were 14, 15. If you don't like Same, alright. But don't use modern laws to suggest that what he did was somehow wrong, when in this particular setting, it was/is perfectly normal.

Could it just be that he is a fat ugly guy and not Jaime, Drogo, Jon or Renly? :rolleyes:

[CryFenril]

Gilly is lonely, sad, and frightened. Sam is the first person in her life to treat her with kindness and concern. Her only experience with relationships is with her father (and yes, that's hella creepy), so it's almost a given that she would crave intimacy at a time when everything around her makes her feel threatened and alone.

The fact that she's lactating was not a turn-on for me - but neither was it a turn-off, either. It struck no chord whatsoever, in the prurient sense; it simply didn't matter that much.

Sam noticed it because this is his first intimate experience with a woman, and he's already half-potty over Gilly anyway, so it is again quite natural that he would find that it enhances his experience with her. Heck, in his position, she could fart and it would be sexy. He is a virgin having his first sexual experience - everything is going to be a turn-on for him, heh.

I agree that this is one of the few "normal" sex scenes in the series, and the tenderness and trust that these two feel for one another makes it a sweet, albeit sad, statement about the way a single act of sharing in the midst of chaos can give two floundering people something to hold on to, if only for a while.

[TMWNN]

One difference I think is in how women love to play around with shipping characters. It's really fun to fantasize about relationships that will never happen in the show/book, but I'm hoping the show could toy with audiences a little (like Sam's gay dreams about Bill in True Blood). These subtle winks to fan ships provokes a lot of excitement in female-centered internet communities.

I understand exactly what you mean. You're not advising the show's writers to invent the equivalent of an Anna for Seth/Summer, but to occasionally provide minor, otherwise-insignificant bits of fan service when it can be done harmlessly. I'm having trouble coming up with scenarios, however, in which people in the next few seasons can plausibly be implied as potential matches, even in subtle ways, that aren't already canon to one degree or another.

Sansa, for example, in a city of 500,000, is surrounded by Lannisters, their lackeys, and eventually the Tyrells. The Lannisters are completely unsuitable, no fan is going to match her with a nonentity like, say, Ser Meryn (one poster has half-seriously suggested she overtly use her sex appeal on Ser Dontos, but I really, really doubt this one), and the Tyrells don't offer any prospects either. That leaves exactly one person: Sandor, a relationship with which we readers already have seen subtly beginning on screen.

Another example: Brienne. Her crush on Renly is not reciprocated, Lorel is unsuitable, and the rest of the Rainbow Guard are nonentities. Jaime is canon. Podrick isn't a candidate, because his immaturity and inequality with/deference to Brienne is an important part of that relationship (although it's possible Podrick might be shown to have a crush on Brienne). That Ser whatisname who travels with the two in book 4 is a possibility, but while I am certain Brienne survived the end of book 4 I don't know if he did; we'll know by the corresponding TV season, of course, and that may very well determine how any on-screen relationship proceeds, of course accompanied by dangerous levels of hate from the Jaime/Brienne partisans.

Jorah and Dany. Lady fans are shipping these two, hard. Just browse any GoT post on Oh No They Didn't for an example.

Agreed.

Jon & Ygritte. Don't skimp on this, writers!! This is as close as we get to a straightforward (if tragic) love story.

[...]

Robb & Jeyne. This story doesn't really fascinate me at all but there are some Robb lovers out there who want to see him in more intimate settings other than "badass king/rebel/commander."

I can guarantee that both stories will get plenty of attention. Expect to see Madden and Harington enjoy many lovey-dovey, shipping-friendly scenes with their comely, fresh out of drama-school ingenue counterparts.

I think Jeyne will actually be a much more important character in the show, not less important. Robb is replacing Eddard as the #1 guy that fans will be routing for. I think they will make this tragic love and betrayal much more focused.

Correct. It will most certainly not occur off camera as in the books. Anyone who does not expect every detail of the Robb/Jeyne relationship to be shown on screen from meet-cute beginning to savage, gruesome end has never watched television.

Sansa & the Hound. Not touching this one. Others can handle it.

This relationship is just as popular at ONTD as Dany/Jorah. I will be shocked if FanForum does not have a Sansa/Sandor shipping thread in the next month, as its slightly younger demographic gets further into the books.

On the other hand, I'm sure no one watches GoT for the romance. I think it has become very clear by now, especially after Drogo's death, that this is not a very romantic story, so if they just follow the story as it is told in the books, everything is going to be okay. I also hate this whole shipping thing with a passion. I want the best overall story, not my favourite pair together. This is not a wishful thinking "love trumps all" kind of story.

Sorry; whether you like it or not 'shipping is a major, major driver of fandom. It was for Star Trek via K/S, it skyrocketed General Hospital's ratings during the days of Luke and Laura, and in the past 10 years made The OC, Gossip Girl, Supernatural, and True Blood into hits.

As women are inherently more attracted to emotional disturbance, and men more attracted to physical conflict, it's a fine line to walk to satisfy both. I think both the books and the series do an admirable job of supplying both demands in quantity.

Agreed.

Frankly I'm a woman and I don't recognize myself much into what you consider to be differences in the way women view the series and I find quite sexist the idea that shows or books are widely differently percieved by different genders.

Sorry; too much empirical evidence to argue otherwise. 80% of registered users at FanFiction.net are female, a figure which is entirely consistent with the demographics of Star Trek fan fiction authorship in the early 1970s.

Honestly I think shippers actually like it when their couple of choice don't get together. After all, you can't exactly write fanfic about what already happens in the show [...] Doomed love is the best for shippers!

Very true!

If women watch the show and leave it because there isn't enough romance... Maybe they shouldn't watch?

Don't tell us that; tell that to the hordes at ONTD and FanForum. (Report back if you don't collapse from epilepsy triggered by glittery flashes.)

[pleonasm]

In the novels though, I felt like many of the sex scenes advanced the story.

For the most part I agree. The issue I've had with the sex and nudity in the 1st season (sans the scenes with Dani) is how its constantly paired with some dreadfully written exposition. If it advances the plot or the character arcs I'm all for it, but for the most part its visual filler why another actor delivers a long winded monologue.

Lets have a sex scene, love scenes, and everything in between, but let it be about that, and let it reveal something about the characters. If you want to show what a letch Greyjoy is, show him in brothel acting like an asshole, but drop the exposition.

Show don't tell that needs to be the mantra for next season. Don't have Baelish tell me what a brillant bad ass he is, lets see it in action.

[fitheach]

I disagree pretty strongly with the bold. I thought the period after Jorah professes his love for Dany was the point at which he became his most interesting. Firstly he pretty clearly wanted Dany for far more than simple physical possession, but in alot of ways he tried to continue to be the strong dependable protector that defined his relationship with Dany from the beggining. That was never going to work though, because how Dany saw that behavior had changed irrepairably. Jorah is clearly someone who falls too deeply into obsession with women, and his hopeless yet hopeful devotion for someone who wasn't attracted to him really fleshed him out as a character for me. In this sense I completely agree that a good looking Jorah doesn't fit anywhere near as well as the swarthy, hairy and physically unattractive man he was in the books. The clumsy way Jorah professed his love, and his inability rekindle the platonic side of their relationship will really resonate with anyone who has gotten the "I only see you as a friend" treatment. On the flip side how Dany's starts to see Jorah as someone who "only wants one thing" is something I'm sure will resonate with plenty of women.

Seeing how overbearing Dany finds Jorah kindled the thought for me that maybe his relationship with his former wife may not have been the simple "snake woman steals everything from loveblind man" story it seemed at first glance. You start to see the side of the man that the woman trapped on a cold lonely island clearly saw.

I hope they keep it as close to the books as possible to be honest. Just because it's unpleasant, doesn't mean it won't make great TV ;)

I personally hope they don't overplay the role of momma Westerling and downplay the role of Robb's weakness in that relationship. BookRobb is a 15-16 year old boy who hasn't really discovered sex yet. He's overcome by something he doesn't fully understand and his almost childlike sense of honor, his impetuous nature, as well as his relationship with his half brother and father all combine into him making a huge mistake. In the end he's brought down by the same thing that brought down his father, his honor.

I'd like it if they manage to amplify that side of the story, but as they've made Robb very much a badass cardboard cutout so far, while making him older and putting less emphasis on his teenage uncertainty, I'm thinking they'll go with the Tywin/treachery angle which would imo be a shame.

I agree with all of this.. I'd rather have the complex characters GRRM created, than turning the show into a RomDrom.

I think Jeyne will actually be a much more important character in the show, not less important. Robb is replacing Eddard as the #1 guy that fans will be routing for. I think they will make this tragic love and betrayal much more focused.

Also agree, will make the red wedding even more red.. :frown5:

[fitheach]

I disagree pretty strongly with the bold. I thought the period after Jorah professes his love for Dany was the point at which he became his most interesting. Firstly he pretty clearly wanted Dany for far more than simple physical possession, but in alot of ways he tried to continue to be the strong dependable protector that defined his relationship with Dany from the beggining. That was never going to work though, because how Dany saw that behavior had changed irrepairably. Jorah is clearly someone who falls too deeply into obsession with women, and his hopeless yet hopeful devotion for someone who wasn't attracted to him really fleshed him out as a character for me. In this sense I completely agree that a good looking Jorah doesn't fit anywhere near as well as the swarthy, hairy and physically unattractive man he was in the books. The clumsy way Jorah professed his love, and his inability rekindle the platonic side of their relationship will really resonate with anyone who has gotten the "I only see you as a friend" treatment. On the flip side how Dany's starts to see Jorah as someone who "only wants one thing" is something I'm sure will resonate with plenty of women.

Seeing how overbearing Dany finds Jorah kindled the thought for me that maybe his relationship with his former wife may not have been the simple "snake woman steals everything from loveblind man" story it seemed at first glance. You start to see the side of the man that the woman trapped on a cold lonely island clearly saw.

I hope they keep it as close to the books as possible to be honest. Just because it's unpleasant, doesn't mean it won't make great TV ;)

Yes! I felt the same about this character!! Was his wife a gold digger, or a girl who ended up on a cold isolated island with an obsessive husband? I love the actor playing Jorah, but I hope he shifts his character from "noble" to obsessive Jorah. I don't feel the actor needs to be less attractive, he just needs to show possessive.

[Sixshells]

Sorry; too much empirical evidence to argue otherwise. 80% of registered users at FanFiction.net are female, a figure which is entirely consistent with the demographics of Star Trek fan fiction authorship in the early 1970s.

I know about the prevalence of female fanfiction. I see it the same way as, say, the prevalence of males in corporate boards : as much (and more) a product of socio-cultural gender training and coertion as an idication of individual preferences. My point is, it is sexist to assume females *must* prefer emotional stuff and relationships, and males prefer combats or political stuff, or to think that women couldn't possibly be interested in genre SF/fantasy stories uless there are loads and load of romance thrown in. So to me, on the one hand calling on that kind of comment made by Ginia Bellafante then on the other hand introducing a strong gender-focused argument about relationships in the show is contradictory, since the latter contributes to reinforce the exact gender stereotype denonced by the OP in her introduction.

Yes! I felt the same about this character!! Was his wife a gold digger, or a girl who ended up on a cold isolated island with an obsessive husband? I love the actor playing Jorah, but I hope he shifts his character from "noble" to obsessive Jorah. I don't feel the actor needs to be less attractive, he just needs to show possessive.

I agree. There are plenty of creepy/possessive characters that are also attractive out there.

[fitheach]

I agree. There are plenty of creepy/possessive characters that are also attractive out there.

Yep, we don't want to fall into stereotypes- that only less attractive people are obsessive/possessive/creepy...

[TMWNN]

I know about the prevalence of female fanfiction. I see it the same way as, say, the prevalence of males in corporate boards : as much (and more) a product of socio-cultural gender training and coertion as an idication of individual preferences.

Come now. Fanfiction.net has 2.2 million registered users as of 2010. Are you really saying that socio-cultural gender training and coercion is today preventing millions of men from fulfilling their hidden desires to write and post, uh, Megatron/Panthro/Brainy Smurf erotic fanfic?

My point is, it is sexist to assume females *must* prefer emotional stuff and relationships, and males prefer combats or political stuff, or to think that women couldn't possibly be interested in genre SF/fantasy stories uless there are loads and load of romance thrown in.

Please don't confuse "mostly" with "must".

Ginia Bellafante's terrible Game of Thrones review made me laugh and groan in equal measure, but one of the ways it made me laugh was her assumption that women couldn't be interested in fantasy. As a guy I've always preferred science fiction over fantasy (ASoIAF is pretty much the first fantasy work I've ever been able to finish except The Hobbit years and years ago). A lifetime's worth of anecdotal evidence told me that most guys shared my preference while, contra Bellafante, most women preferred fantasy over SF. You may call it the artifact of socio-cultural gender training, but I call it pretty darn obvious at any place in which the two subgenres intersect, whether rec.arts.sf.written or io9.com or the local bookstore's SF/F section or the Science Fiction Book Club's offerings or the comments at tor.com's blog posts.

I heartily agree with the earlier poster that complimented both ASoIAF and GoT for attracting both male and female fans in seemingly equal number. Their motivations are different, however. Again, read the above-referenced posts at ONTD or FanForum, two Internet communities that have gone utterly (and unexpectedly) bonkers over Game. The vast, vast, vast majority of posters are young women. They do not spend much time discussing whether Syrio lives. Although they are aware of and enjoy "Ned Stark is dumb" Internet memes, they do not spend much time debating the pros and cons of his failure to practice realpolitik in King's Landing, or the legality of executing the Night's Watch deserter. Rather, in the form of several thousands comments per each Game of Thrones-tagged "party post", they discuss how Robb Stark is the "King of the North of My Thighs" and will "Robb Me of My Hymen",[#] how much they "stan" Jon as the emo hipster of their dreams, how Littlefinger is both creepy pervert #1 and surprisingly attractive, how Joffrey must be violently killed after being slapped for many hours for the sake of humanity, and how Dany is cute with her dragons and being so strong after having survived the death of her "bb" Drago. Only a fool of a showrunner would not seek to appeal to this constituency--one that is completely new to HBO[!]--by making Jon/Ygritte and Robb/Jeyne the dreamiest of dreamy, 'shippable couples, and neither Benioff nor Weiss is a fool.[*]

[#] If you say you didn't laugh when you read this, you are a liar

[!] With two partial exceptions: True Blood, which many are seemingly cooling rapidly on (the new season's fairies are seemingly widely mocked; I have never watched the show or read the books so have no way to decide for myself), and Rome, of which the few who have seen it agree was terrific. They generally like The Borgias and jeer Camelot. They never, ever, mention The Wire, Mad Men, Breaking Bad, Deadwood, or The Sopranos.

[*] They are enthusiastic fans of the books, too, by the way, after discovering the show. As I mentioned earlier, Sandor/Sansa became a popular couple to 'ship long before any hint of this appeared on screen. They do not view Jaime as an outright villain because they know about Brienne. Even Cersei is not detested the way Joffrey is because many admire her as a strong woman.

[beehives]

[rant]

Wow I'd say it sounds like someone (you and this AV club person) have some sexual hangups, rather than GRRM.

Have you been married to or had sex with or been a woman who is lactating? No? OK then. You've got not business judging anyone else for that part of it. What do you think happens, you're having sex and you completely avoid the boobs suddenly because it's slightly taboo? Not unless you've got a weird hangup about lactation you don't.

Underage? Who's underage? Gilly is Sam's age AFAIK. Incest? What fing incest?

Sam + Gilly is like the sweetest, most consensual and least screwed up sex scene in any of the books. People that have a problem with it really just seem to hate Sam or have their own issues and there's not much more to it than that.

[/rant]

I hoped this forum could be free of assumptions about my sexual preferences and/or breastfeeding life, of which you seem to be an expert on after reading two whole sentences of my post, but who am I kidding, it's the internet! Christ on a bike, I have no problem with breast milk at all. It's the combination of embarrassment that Sam feels about his own body (if he feels embarrassed *I* feel embarrassed for him), the fact that she had breast milk in the first place was because her father knocked her up, and then you're on a ship with the SECOND black character in all of GRRM's novels who is only there to help Sam get it on. But what you find "sweet" about all that, I find unsexy as hell just like EVERY OTHER sex scene GRRM is notorious for. I understand why its there, I love the novels for making people uncomfortable (like my Mormon friend who couldn't handle the sex and stopped in the middle of BOOK 1? Ha!), but by book 4, I was exhausted by it all. And sure, my frustrations with Sam "the frightened animal" Tarly and all of AFFC can be added to the mix as well. But showSam? He's great. More sex for him, please, because he's such an improvement over the book version.

I know about the prevalence of female fanfiction. I see it the same way as, say, the prevalence of males in corporate boards : as much (and more) a product of socio-cultural gender training and coertion as an idication of individual preferences. My point is, it is sexist to assume females *must* prefer emotional stuff and relationships, and males prefer combats or political stuff, or to think that women couldn't possibly be interested in genre SF/fantasy stories uless there are loads and load of romance thrown in. So to me, on the one hand calling on that kind of comment made by Ginia Bellafante then on the other hand introducing a strong gender-focused argument about relationships in the show is contradictory, since the latter contributes to reinforce the exact gender stereotype denonced by the OP in her introduction.

I think its pretty clear that I'm not like Ginia, making gross assumptions about women's innate ability to only read ASOIAF for one thing, and the most stereotypical thing at that (relationships). If I thought like her, I wouldn't be here, wearing my Targaryen shirt bought on HBO.com and browsing Westeros.org. Also, my argument about how women "read" the series is VERY different from Ginia's. When she says the sex on "Game of Thrones is boy fiction patronizingly turned out to reach the population’s other half," she's taking a negative, calculating view of sex on the show. Like its something the producers tossed in to make women happy and attract a bigger audience. That's grossly stereotypical. Here, I'm taking a positive, fan-focused view of sex in the show that's grounded in the characters we love, knowing that sex is also a big part of the novels. So I wanted to start a discussion about how female-focused fandom is reacting to the show's sex/relationships in ways that Ginia can't even comprehend. If you find that sexist, I'm sorry but I want to talk about this amazing SHOW, not the political correctness of my post.

[beehives]

Come now. Fanfiction.net has 2.2 million registered users as of 2010. Are you really saying that socio-cultural gender training and coercion is today preventing millions of men from fulfilling their hidden desires to write and post, uh, Megatron/Panthro/Brainy Smurf erotic fanfic?

I heartily agree with the earlier poster that complimented both ASoIAF and GoT for attracting both male and female fans in seemingly equal number. Their motivations are different, however. Again, read the above-referenced posts at ONTD or FanForum, two Internet communities that have gone utterly (and unexpectedly) bonkers over Game. The vast, vast, vast majority of posters are young women. They do not spend much time discussing whether Syrio lives. Although they are aware of and enjoy "Ned Stark is dumb" Internet memes, they do not spend much time debating the pros and cons of his failure to practice realpolitik in King's Landing, or the legality of executing the Night's Watch deserter. Rather, in the form of several thousands comments per each Game of Thrones-tagged "party post", they discuss how Robb Stark is the "King of the North of My Thighs" and will "Robb Me of My Hymen",[#] how much they "stan" Jon as the emo hipster of their dreams, how Littlefinger is both creepy pervert #1 and surprisingly attractive, how Joffrey must be violently killed after being slapped for many hours for the sake of humanity, and how Dany is cute with her dragons and being so strong after having survived the death of her "bb" Drago. Only a fool of a showrunner would not seek to appeal to this constituency--one that is completely new to HBO[!]--by making Jon/Ygritte and Robb/Jeyne the dreamiest of dreamy, 'shippable couples, and neither Benioff nor Weiss is a fool.[*]

TMWNN, no joke I laughed through EVERY word of that awesome description. I am so feeling you right now. I'm a poster on ONTD, and proud. Its mad fun over there. I think Westeros.org needs more shipping, sparkles, and animated GIFs but I'm sure that Elio doesn't want that kind of craziness here. Nevertheless, here I am, challenging the long-time ASOIAF fans to contend with female fans like me who love this aspect of the story. I read the books in 2005 and hoped for a forum like ONTD way back then, but it didn't exist. Thank god for the show because its opened up the floodgates! =)

Also its kind of subversive to know that GRRM's rules on fanfic are being broken as we speak...its all over tumblr.

[brook]

I'm a female fan that's easy to please. Give me a naked Jaime, and the rest of the season could be terribly done, and I wouldn't care.

I mostly agree with this.

Although if HBO want to up their random nudity quota I wouldn't complain much if they invent a reason for rakharo to lose his clothes, preferably permanently.