Jaime Lannister's fate

[Ned's Epic Beard]

I think Jamie is a real human being, And a real hero.

I agree! Every regular person throws a 8 year old boy down from the windows with an intent to kill. And don't forget having an affair with king's wife!.

</sarcasm>

[JonHo]

Actually, from what I remember, he never thinks of Bran or what he did to him. Not once. And certainly not in regret. He doesn't give any thought to Sansa either -- apart from thinking it would be better if she married some blacksmith. He also doesn't give any thought to Arya, Catelyn, Rickon, and Ned for that matter.

He does spend an inordinate amount of time wondering who his sister is fucking though. Oh, and how terrible it is that he doesn't have a sword hand anymore. He spends more time thinking about that in the first paragraph of one chapter than he has devoted to all the Starks together in every single POV he's had during the course of the series.

This. Jaime himself doesn't even think he is on his way to ''being redeemed'' or something like that, odd that his fans do think that.

And why does anyone have to be redeemed? Why is that necessary?

[Faint]

I'm confident Jaime is the valonqar - the problem is, after killing Cersei (if Tommen and Myrcella are already dead), would his life have any meaning?

I like to think that he would have a long and prosper life far from Westeros, maybe with Brienne, but that's highly unlikely, specially if, like Tyrion, he becomes a kinslayer (as if he hadn't done enough to make everyone hate him). So, yes, I think he'll die after killing Cersei, in battle, maybe even an honorable death. And I'm hoping he'll leave a little bastard inside Brienne to be the future Lord of Tarth before dying.

In case Brienne dies before him, I'm hoping he'll become the 1000th Lord Commander of the NW.

I am confident he is the valonqar as well but I think there have been too many not so subtle hints that he and Cersei will die together for that not to pan out.

I also think it somewhat appropriate because I have always viewed them as linked within the greater story. I have a difficult time envisioning a viable plot that involves just one of them or else it will just read as a kind of gratuitous fairytale (especially when you start considering a continuing Jaime and Brienne storyline). And with supposedly only two books left, are either Jaime or Cersei, or Brienne for that matter, really important anymore?

In any case, that has got me to thinking that Jaime might actually commit suicide after he kills Cersei, which is not altogether an unreasonable end to his story. Consider that Tommen and Myrcella will be dead by that point, perhaps even Brienne, and most of the remaining Lannisters as well. What is there left for Jaime to do at that point?

[FourthofHerName]

During my re-read, Jaime became probably my favorite character in the series. Sure, pushing Bran out the window was a horrible thing, but that was during the period when Jaime was more or less Cersei's puppet. She IS truly evil. And if he hadn't pushed Bran out the window, Bran wouldn't have been paralyzed and would just be off pursuing his dreams of knighthood somewhere instead of realizing his true, greenseeing potential. So in that sense, Jaime is almost an instrument of fate, which is why I think I'm able to get over it.

But there is the whole treason thing out there, and given the current state of his relationship with Cersei, he doesn't appear to have much of a future in King's Landing. Thus, I predict that he'll take the Black to put his past crimes behind him, and end up 1000th Commander of the Night's Watch. And if the Night's Watch turns out to be Lightbringer, well, that makes things interesting...

[JonHo]

Are you seriously saying Jaime pushed Bran out of the window because he is under the control of Cersei?

Are you fucking kidding me?

Jaime is not Cersei's puppet. He can think for himself, he was the one pushing Bran out of the window and he is the only one responsible. Cersei has done many vile things but stop blaming EVERYTHING on her.

[FourthofHerName]

No - I am not claiming he was under "the control" of Cersei. I'm merely pointing out that he wasn't doing a lot of critical thinking about what was right or wrong during that period of his life. He was just kind of going with the flow and did what he thought would permit him to continue his illicit relationship with his sister, which he rather enjoyed. Preserving that relationship was his overriding goal, which shaped all his decision making and blinded him to superficiality of his existence. This mindset makes a lot of sense as a self-preservation mechanism, considering the years of shame and abuse he has endured as a result of the last time he acted out a greater sense of responsibilty and tried to do the "right thing."

His travels all over Westeros since Cat released him have been a journey of self-actualization. The fact that he realizes he has a lot left to do is reflected in his sudden interest in the White Book and history of the Kingsguard and how he's uncomfortable in his role as Commander of the Kingsguard.

Regarding his previous breaking of his oath, I think it's important to look at that in the context of the thematic tension running through the series about when oaths reach their useful limits and the negative, sometimes harmful consequences of adhering blindly to one's oath.

[Pellaeon]

Jamie killed a tyrant, and tyranicide is a heroic deed. He always was a hero, with less morality

[Fragile Bird]

I agree! Every regular person throws a 8 year old boy down from the windows with an intent to kill. And don't forget having an affair with king's wife!.

</sarcasm>

Picky, picky, picky, picky, picky, picky :rofl:

[Lady Octarina]

Well Jaime is the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard and as long as he is that and he's got a king or queen to follow he'll have a purpose. And if that goes to hell as well he can still turn to his House out. So I don't think that Jaime will run out of stuff for him to do that can be connected with his search for honor.

I didn't mean that he would officially run out of purpose, only psychologically. Think about it: since he was a child Cersei was the biggest part of his world (isn't there something about how he only joined the KG because of her, to stay with her in KL?). Then he was disappointed at her, and getting a revenge seems to be on the forefront of his mind since AFFC. Once he kills her, he'll be disoriented for a while, especially if his children are killed before that. Eventually he might go on a desperate last attempt to save his honor, might even succeed. But I can only imagine how annoying his POV will be then, all the emo thoughts! :bawl:

Somewhere on a thread someone came up with the thought the Valonqar will be Stannis - he's a younger brother! The thought is so delicious to me I hope it comes true cuz I'm ready to eat it up. :cheers:

It's what gives me hope for Jaime.

I love this idea - but only if that doesn't mean Stannis will have to die :devil: :crying:

[Lady Octarina]

I am confident he is the valonqar as well but I think there have been too many not so subtle hints that he and Cersei will die together for that not to pan out.

I also think it somewhat appropriate because I have always viewed them as linked within the greater story. I have a difficult time envisioning a viable plot that involves just one of them or else it will just read as a kind of gratuitous fairytale (especially when you start considering a continuing Jaime and Brienne storyline). And with supposedly only two books left, are either Jaime or Cersei, or Brienne for that matter, really important anymore?

In any case, that has got me to thinking that Jaime might actually commit suicide after he kills Cersei, which is not altogether an unreasonable end to his story. Consider that Tommen and Myrcella will be dead by that point, perhaps even Brienne, and most of the remaining Lannisters as well. What is there left for Jaime to do at that point?

This. You expressed better what I meant by what I wrote above. Though I must say I still hope he has a fairy tale ending with Brienne after all :frown5:

[clover]

I am not sure about Jaime's ultimate fate...but he has made alot of progress and backtracked away from the bad stuff and is going in a better direction. He is trying to be more honorable and is trying to keep his word now, and I just think that there are some things he is doing now that if he gets into a tight spot later on, may put him in good stead and come back to help him out.

But there are also things he has done that I don't think will ever be righted, and he knows it, and he is only now being to question, and starting to maybe feel some guilt about. He was pretty upset when he was reading the register book about the King's Guard and feeling his pages should be more up to snuff.

[WenchofTarth]

I agree! Every regular person throws a 8 year old boy down from the windows with an intent to kill. And don't forget having an affair with king's wife!.

</sarcasm>

lol, I'll grant you the first, calling Jaime some kind of white knight is a wee bit of an exaggeration though he is hardly on the other end of the scale either. But adultery? Really? That is something you equate with his trying to kill Bran?

[Ashkan Stark]

H will end up dead, but before that I really like to see Jaime killing Cersei and if you consider all that Maegi the Frog stuff, it is a strong theory!

[Gala]

Jaime is very interesting character, indeed. I didn't mind all kings laying thing, but it was emphasized that he killed Aerys when it was "safe", when his father was already in the city, which made it seem a lit bit ugly…but later, when we got his chapters, we saw his motivations and what he thought that day. I personally think that something broke inside of him the day Rickard and Brandon died. He was very young and naive, he wanted to be a true knight (he probably was fond of himself, being the youngest, who was accepted to KG, that he stood beside Dayne, Hightower, Selmy…),but that day he was terribly shocked, truly and deeply, because he had the picture in his head and reality was unspeakably ugly. IIRC even Hightower(?) had to take him away and explain that it's not his duty to judge etc. It seems that was a necessity because of the way Jaime looked that moment.

I do think that Aerys murder was the only morally right thing he did and he has my respect for that, but…yes, but I do not claim that this deed was without personal gain or highly honorable.

Well, Bran-such things are unforgivable. Plus, I was furious when I read him recalling the day Nymaria (don't remember how to write this name) bit Joffrey, he was swearing that he would kill Arya if he had found her first. Luckily, it was Jory, who found her. Even the idea of killing her (a little girl) is ugly.

I pity his life actually: it seems he lived his life under "spell", I mean he put Cersei above and did what she wanted…this is sad, really. Only now he shows some understanding of the life he's lived so far…thanks to Brienna and his "absent" hand.

I do not know where he will end up, but I hope he will serve some good goal and eventually dies (I would prefer, he would sleep with Brienne and make her pregnant on his way, so their child would be good, decent and pretty - I know childish and girlish idea, but still…) :)

[maria underfoot]

I agree! Every regular person throws a 8 year old boy down from the windows with an intent to kill. And don't forget having an affair with king's wife!.

</sarcasm>

Pushing Bran was a horrible crime. But he's not the only one to have tried to kill a kid, to protect their family. Arya kills the stableboy, Stannis intends to sacrifice Edric for his royal blood, LF wants to kill Sweetrobin, Tywin, Robert and Tyrion have expressed similar plans (Aegon and Rhaenys come to mind). My point is that while attempting to murder a child is the most vile crime, it is done in war, and not only by Jaime.

And seriously, adultery? Sleeping with the king's wife? Yeah, I guess he ought to be crucified for that.

Fact is, people, that Jaime is an interesting, multi-dimensional character, which makes him genuine and real. He has no extraordinary heroic qualities, like characters do in most books, but he is normal in wanting to protect himself.

[Axon]

Jaime is one of the best characters in the novels, and I'm glad GRRM made him more than a cocky asshole of a knight. It's true though - what happens to a guy like that when he's forced to confront his mortality? Or when his character defining martial skill is stripped away? His moral ambiguity and depth of character are all excellent.

GRRM is doing this with Theon to a certain extent as well, except Theon has been tortured to the point of madness and lacks the powerful sense of self that Jaime has.

[m_k]

May be jaime will die in a battle with hodor (warged by bran).

[Fragile Bird]

Jaime is very interesting character, indeed. I didn't mind all kings laying thing, but it was emphasized that he killed Aerys when it was "safe", when his father was already in the city, which made it seem a lit bit ugly…but later, when we got his chapters, we saw his motivations and what he thought that day.

IMHO, this is BS.

The "safe" comment was made by either Ned or Robert, I don't have my book here, and it is BS. Jamie can't reveal the secrets of the King, and even though he killed the s.o.b., it's not up to him to tell everyone what the King's plan was - to burn down King's Landing and fry the thousands of people who lived there, not to mention any enemy troops who had reached the city. But first he had to get to the hand and head pyromancer (remember, the previous hand was burned alive by Aerys because he disagreed with the plot) and kill him before he put the wildfire plot in play. And then after the sack he still secretly went and hunted down other pyromancers to make sure they didn't decide they still had to burn down the city in accordance with their late king's wishes.

Remember, until his talk with Brienne, no one knew what the nutbar king was planning ondoing. The city has a loathing for Lannisters because of the sack that happened - how would they react if they found out they would have all been dead if Jaime hadn't done what he did?

[Gala]

IMHO, this is BS. The "safe" comment was made by either Ned or Robert, I don't have my book here, and it is BS. Jamie can't reveal the secrets of the King, and even though he killed the s.o.b., it's not up to him to tell everyone what the King's plan was - to burn down King's Landing and fry the thousands of people who lived there, not to mention any enemy troops who had reached the city. But first he had to get to the hand and head pyromancer (remember, the previous hand was burned alive by Aerys because he disagreed with the plot) and kill him before he put the wildfire plot in play. And then after the sack he still secretly went and hunted down other pyromancers to make sure they didn't decide they still had to burn down the city in accordance with their late king's wishes. Remember, until his talk with Brienne, no one knew what the nutbar king was planning ondoing. The city has a loathing for Lannisters because of the sack that happened - how would they react if they found out they would have all been dead if Jaime hadn't done what he did?

Yes, that was my point…we didn't know the truth of his motivation until we see things from his perspective! It was represented by GRRM that way: I thought one thing, but later I discovered the truth (if you wish). It was also my reason to put word "safe" in quotes :) If you think of that the way Ned thought and seen all the scenes (as it was introduced to us at the beginning), all Mad King's murder would seem "safe", "at the most suitable moment" or even something worse. But that's Ned, not Jaime (I like both Ned and Jaime, but Ned is my favorite anyway).

I also think that it was even more significant for Jaime to save the city because he witnessed Rickard and Brandon's ugly killing, which obviously influenced him a lot (he thought knighthood is something great and pure, but in reality even if you are a knight, you are sometimes not able to save innocent), it was a breaking moment for him.

P.s: could you, please, educate me, what does BS mean?

[Pliny]

... he threatened to throw a newborn child from a trebuchet.

I got the impression that he wasn't at all serious about doing that.

But, as Taena's Curves said, it seems to me that pushing Bran is much worse than killing Aerys. I guess it's the whole "honor" thing.